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This is undoubtedly false. Speaking of "purported evidence" when there is literally no credible evidence submitted by the Israeli government for these allegati

This is undoubtedly false. Speaking of "purported evidence" when there is literally no credible evidence submitted by the Israeli government for these allegations is misleading at best. Their whole case rests on the testimony of two Palestinian accountants, likely attained by torture, that worked for two organizations that were not included in the list of six [1]. They merely state it is "general knowledge" that these orgs are funneling money to PFLP without providing any evidence. These testimonies have been already partially refuted by public information. Multiple European governments and a large range of reputable international human rights organizations, incl HRW and Amnesty, have rejected the Israeli allegations as baseless and unsupported. These organizations are highly reputable and been supported for years by the EU, uk and other reputable international donors. They are targeted for their role in opposing the Israeli occupation and human rights violations and, in the case of Al-Haq, likely targeted for their role in the ICC investigation. [1] https://www.972mag.com/shin-bet-dossier-palestinian-ngos/ https://www.972mag.com/shin-bet-dossier-palestinian-ngos/

pythonlion 5y ago
why Israel need to answer to EU and why everything EU does is automatically right?
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
  I think this is a loaded and defensive question that tries to broaden the scope of the allegation to something obviously wrong. Obviously everything the EU does isn’t automatically right because it’s the EU. But maybe if multiple reputable human rights organizations are condemning allegations of a country as baseless and part of ongoing human rights violations then maybe that specific thing is a correct statement of fact.
  - pythonlion 5y ago
    or maybe its conflict of interests. I'm not talking of the general situation but about this action by Israel government and the response. And this all human right groups are funded by the EU if its private or public it doesn't matter from the Israeli government perspective. Or maybe this groups doesn't know everything? why their members opinion is more accepted than the Israeli politicians who did that? some of them are even have pro-Palestinian independence stance
    - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
      The fact based claim is that the Israel government haven’t provided evidence to their claims and therefore the claims are unsubstantiated. Any discussion of conspiracy can be put to rest with some proof.
      - pythonlion 5y ago
        but since when governments need to provide evidence and to whom? the world government? Can I go to random governments around the world and ask them to show evidence about their security issues to my organization?
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        ashtonkem 5y ago
        Yes, and you should. And for those governments who can’t or won’t provide evidence, you should disregard their assertions as baseless and suspect. I mean, why wouldn’t you demand proof? Governments have a long and nasty history of conflating their political interests with security interests, just trusting their assertions seems extremely foolhardy.
        LegitShady 5y ago
        because it would compromise means and methods
        ashtonkem 5y ago
        Tough. The logical consequence of “we can’t show you the proof” is “okay, I don’t believe that you have any”. After all, you would not believe my assertions about fantastical achievements without evidence, and the consequences of that hypothetical are much lower than the state saying it should be able to kill people in the name of “counter terrorism”. More succinctly; “it would compromise means and methods” is a phenomenal way to cover up shaky or non-existent evidence.
- White_Wolf 5y ago
  Exploting bugs to gain unauthorized access is a crime regardless of who does it. If the crime happened on EU grounds they have to asnwer to EU. That particular company should have trading sactions imposed on it just like the country it belongs to. We do the same for Russian hackers so it's only fair to apply that to everyone else. EU is the modern equivalent of Soviet Union and it behaves like that. They do a ton of stuff wrong and they take decisions without any regard for the local culture and people. This has nothing to do with illegal access to other peoples devices.
yonixw 5y ago
Looking around, you can quickly find, that `Shawan Jabarin` the general director of Al-Haq (which was banned) was convicted in 1985 of recruiting and arranging training for members for PFLP and was called “Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde,” by the Israeli Supreme Court in 2007 for being a human rights campaigner by day and a terrorist by night. Also, HRW statement should be taken with a grain of salt, since they have conflict of interest since he was appointed by Human Rights Watch (HRW) to its advisory board that oversees reporting on Arab-Israeli affairs In February 2011 (All after his convictions) So having two accountants telling you it is "general knowledge" that these orgs are funneling money to PFLP are not statements in the void. No proof there was any kind of torture also in your article. Only "may". Apply your own standard. And the subject is definitely not innocent body that is solely targeted because of their role in the ICC investigation
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  He was part of a student group that was associated with the PFLP, which is labeled a terrorist group and has done violent acts, and was convicted on that basis. You know who else this sort of indict applies to? Nelson Mandela and his involvement with the ANC. Nevermind that I don't trust the Israeli legal system that existed in the 80s to give a fair shake to a Palestinian student activist.
  - kodah 5y ago
    I don't have any skin in the game here, just an observers perspective. Just looking through these comments I understand nothing of the narratives at play for either side. Most of them don't line up with history I can find at Wikipedia, or they'll partially match but then deviate significantly in some fanciful explanation.
    - nwiswell 5y ago
      This is the entire conflict in a nutshell. Sometimes it feels like there are no good guys on either side -- obviously not true, but the lack of any real ground truth can give rise to that illusion. There's more mud than honor in the Middle East, I guess you could say, and probably not because there's a shortage of the latter.
DSingularity 5y ago
Israel, a country that terrorizes Palestinians on the daily accuses everyone that fights it as terrorists. Maybe some are, but I think our minds should be initialized to “given the terror you consciously and actively spread, please provide evidence for any terrorist accusations”.
- yonixw 5y ago
  > Israel, a country that terrorizes Palestinians on the daily accuses They don't. Sending a Police Riot control unit against a group of people throwing stones and molotovs does not qualify as being terrorized. > accuses everyone that fights it as terrorists. If they hurt bystanding civilians (and they do) or funnel money for it (and they do) there is nothing wrong with that. > Maybe some are They are, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and many more... not some and not maybe. > please provide evidence for any terrorist accusations They do. Israel have problems. It should solve them. Hyperbolic discussion will never achieve it.
  - helge9210 5y ago
    > They don't. Sending a Police Riot control unit against a group of people throwing stones and molotovs does not qualify as being terrorized. But sending an army unit with an order "break the village" which results in shock grenades being dropped into a cradle with the baby inside does qualify them as being terrorized. Note: I'm Israeli and was working with people who got those orders and carried them out during their service.
    - DSingularity 5y ago
      Thank you for your courage to say that. It is also funny how often people forget why the riots start in the first place. So often it seems to be that the riots are precipitated by egregious abuse by settlers/army/police/Israeli policy. Abuse the people long enough and they will rage.
      - helge9210 5y ago
q1w2 5y ago
Firstly, your source is incredibly biased - it is a Palestinian advocacy organization. Secondly, you make the claim that they attained the evidence by torture - with no evidence of such. The fact remains that two Palestinian accountants testified in court that these "charity" organizations were funneling money to the PFLP terrorist organization. HRW and AI may not think that the evidence is strong enough, and maybe it isn't, but given the testimony, it seems much more reasonable that the Israeli gov't conduct espionage on them if they suspect there is possible terrorist financing happening. Let's also remember that HRW and AI are hardly unbiased sources when it comes to the Israel/Palestine conflict. They have both repeatedly taken sides in that conflict. This also wouldn't be the first case of a "human rights" organization in the middle east being used to funnel money that ends up in the hands of terrorists, so I think espionage on these organizations should be expected, and is likely ubiquitous, whether they use NSO tools or not.
- Quanttek 5y ago
  1. it's not an "advocacy organization" but a magazine. And this a) doesn't change the fact that the dossier provides no evidence and b) other media has reported on the dossier, including The Intercept [1]. 2. I only mentioned that torture has been alleged. Shin Bet has a long-standing pattern of using torture and other inhuman or degrading treatment to obtain confessions. 3. These two disgraced accountants only provided assertions on general hypotheses, no concrete evidence. Such testimony isn't worth much. To quote +972 [see above]: > An examination of the dossier’s “evidence,” however, along with an examination of the summaries of Abdat’s and Hamuda’s repeated interrogations, reveals that the accountants — who did not work for any of the six targeted organizations — based most of their accusations on general hypotheses, what they alleged was “common knowledge,” or information they claimed was widely “known.” > More importantly, even Abdat’s and Hamuda’s unsubstantiated testimonies indicate, at most, that some of these organizations were involved in civic and public activities such as student events, helping the sick, and poetry classes that form part of the PFLP’s work as a movement in Palestinian society. A lawyer representing one of the accountants, Abdat, further alleges that his client may have been pressured to provide testimony following interrogation methods that could amount to torture or ill-treatment. Their reliability must also be questioned: > Moreover, the summaries of Abdat and Hamuda’s interrogations reveal how poorly acquainted they were with the six organizations listed in Gantz’s declaration. For example, during his interrogation on March 31, Hamuda mentioned the six groups but erroneously noted that parliamentarian Khalida Jarrar is the director of Addameer, an organization that defends the rights of Palestinian political prisoners, despite the fact that she has not headed the organization since 2006 (Addameer’s current director is attorney Sahar Francis). 4. I'm not sure we should accuse AI and HRW as biased, simply for standing up for human rights in Israel, which, considering where the majority of violation lie and who the occupying power is, will necessarily focus on one player. After all, it is not the PA but the Israeli army that demolishes homes or holds people in indefinite "administrative" detention. --- In short, it is up for the Israeli government to prove publicly - beyond a reasonable doubt - that these severe allegations of terrorism funding are true and that the designation as terrorist associations is justified. It is not up to those organizations and their defenders to prove a negative. Innocent until proven guilty is after all the foundation of state respecting the rule of law. A designation based on secret "evidence", combined with the fact that even confidential dossiers don't offer a shred of evidence, doesn't make this look like a justified designation [1] https://theintercept.com/2021/11/04/secret-israel-dossier-palestinian-rights-terrorist/ https://theintercept.com/2021/11/04/secret-israel-dossier-pa...
jgmmo 5y ago
This is fake news.

pythonlion 5y ago

why Israel need to answer to EU and why everything EU does is automatically right?

SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
I think this is a loaded and defensive question that tries to broaden the scope of the allegation to something obviously wrong. Obviously everything the EU does isn’t automatically right because it’s the EU. But maybe if multiple reputable human rights organizations are condemning allegations of a country as baseless and part of ongoing human rights violations then maybe that specific thing is a correct statement of fact.
- pythonlion 5y ago
  or maybe its conflict of interests. I'm not talking of the general situation but about this action by Israel government and the response. And this all human right groups are funded by the EU if its private or public it doesn't matter from the Israeli government perspective. Or maybe this groups doesn't know everything? why their members opinion is more accepted than the Israeli politicians who did that? some of them are even have pro-Palestinian independence stance
  - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
    The fact based claim is that the Israel government haven’t provided evidence to their claims and therefore the claims are unsubstantiated. Any discussion of conspiracy can be put to rest with some proof.
    - pythonlion 5y ago
      but since when governments need to provide evidence and to whom? the world government? Can I go to random governments around the world and ask them to show evidence about their security issues to my organization?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - ashtonkem 5y ago
        Yes, and you should. And for those governments who can’t or won’t provide evidence, you should disregard their assertions as baseless and suspect. I mean, why wouldn’t you demand proof? Governments have a long and nasty history of conflating their political interests with security interests, just trusting their assertions seems extremely foolhardy.
        LegitShady 5y ago
        because it would compromise means and methods
        ashtonkem 5y ago
        Tough. The logical consequence of “we can’t show you the proof” is “okay, I don’t believe that you have any”. After all, you would not believe my assertions about fantastical achievements without evidence, and the consequences of that hypothetical are much lower than the state saying it should be able to kill people in the name of “counter terrorism”. More succinctly; “it would compromise means and methods” is a phenomenal way to cover up shaky or non-existent evidence.
White_Wolf 5y ago
Exploting bugs to gain unauthorized access is a crime regardless of who does it. If the crime happened on EU grounds they have to asnwer to EU. That particular company should have trading sactions imposed on it just like the country it belongs to. We do the same for Russian hackers so it's only fair to apply that to everyone else. EU is the modern equivalent of Soviet Union and it behaves like that. They do a ton of stuff wrong and they take decisions without any regard for the local culture and people. This has nothing to do with illegal access to other peoples devices.

yonixw 5y ago

Looking around, you can quickly find, that `Shawan Jabarin` the general director of Al-Haq (which was banned) was convicted in 1985 of recruiting and arranging training for members for PFLP and was called “Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde,” by the Israeli Supreme Court in 2007 for being a human rights campaigner by day and a terrorist by night. Also, HRW statement should be taken with a grain of salt, since they have conflict of interest since he was appointed by Human Rights Watch (HRW) to its advisory board that oversees reporting on Arab-Israeli affairs In February 2011 (All after his convictions) So having two accountants telling you it is "general knowledge" that these orgs are funneling money to PFLP are not statements in the void. No proof there was any kind of torture also in your article. Only "may". Apply your own standard. And the subject is definitely not innocent body that is solely targeted because of their role in the ICC investigation

whimsicalism 5y ago
He was part of a student group that was associated with the PFLP, which is labeled a terrorist group and has done violent acts, and was convicted on that basis. You know who else this sort of indict applies to? Nelson Mandela and his involvement with the ANC. Nevermind that I don't trust the Israeli legal system that existed in the 80s to give a fair shake to a Palestinian student activist.
- kodah 5y ago
  I don't have any skin in the game here, just an observers perspective. Just looking through these comments I understand nothing of the narratives at play for either side. Most of them don't line up with history I can find at Wikipedia, or they'll partially match but then deviate significantly in some fanciful explanation.
  - nwiswell 5y ago
    This is the entire conflict in a nutshell. Sometimes it feels like there are no good guys on either side -- obviously not true, but the lack of any real ground truth can give rise to that illusion. There's more mud than honor in the Middle East, I guess you could say, and probably not because there's a shortage of the latter.

DSingularity 5y ago

Israel, a country that terrorizes Palestinians on the daily accuses everyone that fights it as terrorists. Maybe some are, but I think our minds should be initialized to “given the terror you consciously and actively spread, please provide evidence for any terrorist accusations”.

yonixw 5y ago
> Israel, a country that terrorizes Palestinians on the daily accuses They don't. Sending a Police Riot control unit against a group of people throwing stones and molotovs does not qualify as being terrorized. > accuses everyone that fights it as terrorists. If they hurt bystanding civilians (and they do) or funnel money for it (and they do) there is nothing wrong with that. > Maybe some are They are, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and many more... not some and not maybe. > please provide evidence for any terrorist accusations They do. Israel have problems. It should solve them. Hyperbolic discussion will never achieve it.
- helge9210 5y ago
  > They don't. Sending a Police Riot control unit against a group of people throwing stones and molotovs does not qualify as being terrorized. But sending an army unit with an order "break the village" which results in shock grenades being dropped into a cradle with the baby inside does qualify them as being terrorized. Note: I'm Israeli and was working with people who got those orders and carried them out during their service.
  - DSingularity 5y ago
    Thank you for your courage to say that. It is also funny how often people forget why the riots start in the first place. So often it seems to be that the riots are precipitated by egregious abuse by settlers/army/police/Israeli policy. Abuse the people long enough and they will rage.
    - helge9210 5y ago

q1w2 5y ago

Firstly, your source is incredibly biased - it is a Palestinian advocacy organization. Secondly, you make the claim that they attained the evidence by torture - with no evidence of such. The fact remains that two Palestinian accountants testified in court that these "charity" organizations were funneling money to the PFLP terrorist organization. HRW and AI may not think that the evidence is strong enough, and maybe it isn't, but given the testimony, it seems much more reasonable that the Israeli gov't conduct espionage on them if they suspect there is possible terrorist financing happening. Let's also remember that HRW and AI are hardly unbiased sources when it comes to the Israel/Palestine conflict. They have both repeatedly taken sides in that conflict. This also wouldn't be the first case of a "human rights" organization in the middle east being used to funnel money that ends up in the hands of terrorists, so I think espionage on these organizations should be expected, and is likely ubiquitous, whether they use NSO tools or not.

Quanttek 5y ago
1. it's not an "advocacy organization" but a magazine. And this a) doesn't change the fact that the dossier provides no evidence and b) other media has reported on the dossier, including The Intercept [1]. 2. I only mentioned that torture has been alleged. Shin Bet has a long-standing pattern of using torture and other inhuman or degrading treatment to obtain confessions. 3. These two disgraced accountants only provided assertions on general hypotheses, no concrete evidence. Such testimony isn't worth much. To quote +972 [see above]: > An examination of the dossier’s “evidence,” however, along with an examination of the summaries of Abdat’s and Hamuda’s repeated interrogations, reveals that the accountants — who did not work for any of the six targeted organizations — based most of their accusations on general hypotheses, what they alleged was “common knowledge,” or information they claimed was widely “known.” > More importantly, even Abdat’s and Hamuda’s unsubstantiated testimonies indicate, at most, that some of these organizations were involved in civic and public activities such as student events, helping the sick, and poetry classes that form part of the PFLP’s work as a movement in Palestinian society. A lawyer representing one of the accountants, Abdat, further alleges that his client may have been pressured to provide testimony following interrogation methods that could amount to torture or ill-treatment. Their reliability must also be questioned: > Moreover, the summaries of Abdat and Hamuda’s interrogations reveal how poorly acquainted they were with the six organizations listed in Gantz’s declaration. For example, during his interrogation on March 31, Hamuda mentioned the six groups but erroneously noted that parliamentarian Khalida Jarrar is the director of Addameer, an organization that defends the rights of Palestinian political prisoners, despite the fact that she has not headed the organization since 2006 (Addameer’s current director is attorney Sahar Francis). 4. I'm not sure we should accuse AI and HRW as biased, simply for standing up for human rights in Israel, which, considering where the majority of violation lie and who the occupying power is, will necessarily focus on one player. After all, it is not the PA but the Israeli army that demolishes homes or holds people in indefinite "administrative" detention. --- In short, it is up for the Israeli government to prove publicly - beyond a reasonable doubt - that these severe allegations of terrorism funding are true and that the designation as terrorist associations is justified. It is not up to those organizations and their defenders to prove a negative. Innocent until proven guilty is after all the foundation of state respecting the rule of law. A designation based on secret "evidence", combined with the fact that even confidential dossiers don't offer a shred of evidence, doesn't make this look like a justified designation [1] https://theintercept.com/2021/11/04/secret-israel-dossier-palestinian-rights-terrorist/ https://theintercept.com/2021/11/04/secret-israel-dossier-pa...

jgmmo 5y ago

This is fake news.