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> Fail0verflow have stated in the past that Jailbroken consoles are not worth it anymore since they are so close to computers in features and functionality Int

> Fail0verflow have stated in the past that Jailbroken consoles are not worth it anymore since they are so close to computers in features and functionality Interesting. I don't own a PS5, but Xbox seems to be pretty much a PC [1] (weeeell, like a Chromecast-style PC anyways). The main reason to legitimately jailbreak a PS4 back in the day was to get back the Linux functionality Sony took away from its users, and to run emulators possibly. It's interesting that the hacker communities acknowledge that the legitimate reasons for jailbreaking your PS5 are not many, at least not yet. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw_4kiYvEmE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw_4kiYvEmE

jojobas 5y ago
Cheap render farm?
zeroflow 5y ago
Well, If you look at both the PS5 and XBox One X, both of them are running customized AMD SoC's. But basically, that's just a AMD APU. If my memory serves me correctly, the PS3 for comparison had a custom Cell CPU which was used for supercomputer clusters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_cluster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_cluster So they must have had some kind of edge compared to normal PCs.
- tehbeard 5y ago
  The cell CPU was something like a dual core with 6 additional, specialised stream processors. I think the closest analogue might be a a CPU with a few cuda cores on the die? It didn't work too well from my understanding, difficult to develop anything that could make use of those streaming cores that was worth it over a traditional multicore chip with more cores. Useful for scientific community though. If anyone knows what the spe cores were used for in games, I'd be very interested to know.
  - dagmx 5y ago
    The Cell was a single primary CPu core, with seven SPU (technically eight with one disabled) cores. The SPU cores were basically used heavily for any background data processing that might align well with what GPU compute is used for today.
    - Nursie 5y ago
      The primary core either had a twin or some sort of SMT going on, it presented to linux as two cores.
  - ricardobeat 5y ago
    My understanding is that each SPE core was individually assigned to physics, lighting, AI and other tasks, as tools for developing multi-threaded code were not that common at the time. The Last of Us is supposed to be one of the very few that actually used all cores.
  - _kbh_ 5y ago
    Heres a bunch of PDF's and presentations from Sony first party studios. Naughty Dog - Uncharted - Pages 33 - 39, 49, 54 - https://github.com/hww/game_programmer_reading/raw/master/nd/Naughty-Dog-GDC08-UNCHARTED-Tech.pdf https://github.com/hww/game_programmer_reading/raw/master/nd... Gorilla Games - KillZone 2 SPU Case Study - All of it - https://ubm-twvideo01.s3.amazonaws.com/o1/vault/gdc09/slides/GDC2009-vdLeeuw-KZ2SPUsCaseStudy.pdf https://ubm-twvideo01.s3.amazonaws.com/o1/vault/gdc09/slides... Insomniac Games - Insomniac’s SPU Best Practices Hard-won lessons we’re applying to a 3rd generation PS3 title Slides 46 - 48 https://www.slideserve.com/aldona/insomniac-s-spu-best-practices-hard-won-lessons-we-re-applying-to-a-3rd-generation-ps3-title https://www.slideserve.com/aldona/insomniac-s-spu-best-pract...
- rbanffy 5y ago
  > had some kind of edge compared to normal PCs. They did, but the Cell SPUs were hard to program and that edge quickly eroded as the Cell proved to be a dead end and x86 CPUs continued to evolve.
  - agent327 5y ago
    It was the GPUs that evolved, not the CPUs. The original PS3 design didn't have a dedicated GPU (but, I believe, two Cells instead, one being dedicated to graphics rendering). A GPU was added as it became obvious that this design had a massive advantage over the Cell design.
    - rbanffy 5y ago
      > It was the GPUs that evolved, not the CPUs. That's not quite true. Every architecture iteration brought an increase in IPC, while every process improvement allowed for higher clocks and lower power dissipation. It's true that GPUs evolved a lot more - but that's mostly by getting bigger, wider, and having wider, faster pipes to its own RAM and the shared PCIe bus, as well as bigger heatsinks and fans.
throwaway2077 5y ago
"I want to play pirated games" is a perfectly legitimate reason
- 8draco8 5y ago
  This is the true reason that I feel like everybody are dancing around. Let's not lie to ourselves, hacking consoles in PS1, PS2 and DC era was for pirating games. Running unlicensed apps or linux was just a nice side effect of true goal. This days it's far less popular because of size, connectivity and prices of games.
  - p1necone 5y ago
    That might be the true reason for the average person downloading it and jailbreaking their own system, but the dev side of the ps3 jailbreaking scene only really started in earnest when Sony patched out the OtherOS feature. You couldn't run PS3 games via OtherOS, but hackers didn't care because running their own code really is all they care about.
  - hnlmorg 5y ago
    For some people your point will be valid. But there are a lot of people who hacked older consoles because: + They wanted to region unlock it (this is particularly true in Europe where there is a big demand for Japanese games that weren't released over here) + They wanted to run the console at 60hz rather than 50hz (this is true for the much older consoles and again mostly a thing in Europe because some PAL games would run slower than NTSC games. eg Sonic 1 on the Mega Drive) + Linux. This was a big incentive behind the PS3 cracks because of the PS3's interesting Cell Processor design. Later the removal of "Other OS" added to the incentive to jailbreak the PS3 + Media Centres. The reason I've soft modded my Xboxes was to run XBMC + Retro gaming. Plenty of systems have been jailbroken so that their owners could play classic Nintendo / Sega / Atari / Amiga / NeoGeo games from the 80s and 90s. Technically it's still breaking copyright laws but given the age of those games some turn a blind eye because it isn't hurting the developers of new games (I'm not saying I agree with their argument either for or against, just presenting their views) + Some systems wouldn't allow you to play homebrew games (3rd party titles that are unlicensed from the console manufacturer but granted copyright licence by the games developer). So they're legal to play but the only way to do that was via hacking the console + Some jailbreak simply because they want to exercise their right to hack their own hardware. And this isn't just uber nerds either, I've met a surprising number of people who have done it just because they read an article somewhere and thought it sounded fun. + ...and yes, some do it to pirate modern games too. But the risk there is always that your device doesn't support future software updates and thus no longer supports modern games online. So it's a bit daft buying a console if you know you're going to pirate modern games; you're much better off with a PC (this was as true 15 years ago as it is now). As it happens, I welcome the lack of DRM on the Sega CD because I have a few discs that are scratched and thus don't play properly. So I can keep the original discs and cases around but play CD-R copies. I can imagine needing this option more and more if/when disc rot sets in on my other disc-based retro consoles too.
rbanffy 5y ago
The last “interesting” PlayStation in that regard was the PS3. The 4 was just a PC. The contemporary Xbox also had an interesting CPU, also PPC ISA. All successors were mostly x86 PCs. There may be some ARM fun in the future, as thermals are a huge thing now (the PS5 is mostly a heatsink with a computer attached and the newest Xbox is kind of a chimney).
- PixelOfDeath 5y ago
  They are x86 APUs with a very powerful GPU and high memory bandwidth. Something you can not buy on the open market to use it as a PC so far.
  - easytiger 5y ago
    I think LTT had some boards they bought from China that are very similar to the ps5 mainboard. PCB even looks nearly identical with the ring configuration of the layout. https://linustechtips.com/topic/1383323-why-is-amd-selling-broken-playstations/ https://linustechtips.com/topic/1383323-why-is-amd-selling-b...
    - MikusR 5y ago
      Those have the gpu disabled
    - doikor 5y ago
      But that is just the CPU. Basically the expensive part (the beefy integrated gpu) is not working and thus the still working parts (cpu, memory, io, etc) are being sold instead of being thrown into trash.
      - easytiger 5y ago
        Yea, I was just pointing it out.
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    That’s a good point. The 5 has about the same memory bandwidth of an M1 Max, which is something you’ll only find in 2-socket big Xeons (NUMA excepted), but the PS4 is on the same ballpark of a Threadripper Pro. Still, they are very much PCs with memory systems that are not available in general purpose boxes of the same price. I remember, however, some benchmarks on motherboards with console CPUs that were somewhat disappointing because the GDDR6 memory has high bandwidth at a higher latency cost that the internal caches couldn’t hide. Still, if you can tune your workload for it, it may be an interesting compute box.
stordoff 5y ago
> The main reason to legitimately jailbreak a PS4 back in the day was to get back the Linux functionality Sony took away from its users That was the PS3, through the OtherOS feature[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
solarkraft 5y ago
But aren’t modern consoles generally pretty good PCs at comparatively low prices?
- Gigachad 5y ago
  Sort of. When they came out, the specs were pretty good and the price was good. But supply shortages meant that realistically, you are paying more than RRP anyway. And it’s not like you will be able to install windows on a ps5 and use it as a replacement PC even if it is theoretically possible.
  - robin_reala 5y ago
    Sure, but you might be able to install Linux for example.
- hnlmorg 5y ago
  No. Consoles aren't good general computing devices. But they are good at specific domains of computing.
  - formerly_proven 5y ago
    Why not? A PS5 or whatever the current Xbox is have pretty much the same I/O as a SFF PC. Bunch of USB, HDMI, maybe DisplayPort (?), Ethernet. They have enough memory in this generation (16+ GB) to be quite useful machines. And they have GPUs which are roughly equal to a midrange card. The PS5 even has a standard M.2 slot. They're really just an SFF PC with heavily locked down software.
    - hnlmorg 5y ago
      Because of all the little things they don't have: Keyboard and mouse, office suit. command line, etc. Sure you could probably solve all of those problems with enough time and money but you'd end up with something that's neither the same as the original console nor cheaper and easier to maintain than a mid-range laptop. This is what general computing is about these days. Most consumer devices these days are powerful enough to do most general computing tasks. Even watches! But it's all the additional stuff you need to do to expose that power that prevents it from being a good general purpose device. Whereas consoles are can be well suited in other domains outside of gaming even without installing additional peripherals nor hacking the OS.
Abishek_Muthian 5y ago
I don't use cracked games or SW but would like my game consoles jailbroken for general computing after they become obsolete i.e. no new games support them (or) no SW updates. A computer is a computer, anything which could be converted into a general computer is a win for me and for the environment.
Nursie 5y ago
> Jailbroken consoles are not worth it anymore since they are so close to computers in features and functionality With around the same graphics power as a Radeon 5700xt/6700 card, with the whole PS5 system costing around the same as that card, a jailbroken console actually looks like pretty good value right now. If it could be broken enough to run a general purpose OS with acceleration enabled.

jojobas 5y ago

Cheap render farm?

zeroflow 5y ago

Well, If you look at both the PS5 and XBox One X, both of them are running customized AMD SoC's. But basically, that's just a AMD APU. If my memory serves me correctly, the PS3 for comparison had a custom Cell CPU which was used for supercomputer clusters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_cluster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_cluster So they must have had some kind of edge compared to normal PCs.

tehbeard 5y ago
The cell CPU was something like a dual core with 6 additional, specialised stream processors. I think the closest analogue might be a a CPU with a few cuda cores on the die? It didn't work too well from my understanding, difficult to develop anything that could make use of those streaming cores that was worth it over a traditional multicore chip with more cores. Useful for scientific community though. If anyone knows what the spe cores were used for in games, I'd be very interested to know.
- dagmx 5y ago
  The Cell was a single primary CPu core, with seven SPU (technically eight with one disabled) cores. The SPU cores were basically used heavily for any background data processing that might align well with what GPU compute is used for today.
  - Nursie 5y ago
    The primary core either had a twin or some sort of SMT going on, it presented to linux as two cores.
- ricardobeat 5y ago
  My understanding is that each SPE core was individually assigned to physics, lighting, AI and other tasks, as tools for developing multi-threaded code were not that common at the time. The Last of Us is supposed to be one of the very few that actually used all cores.
- _kbh_ 5y ago
  Heres a bunch of PDF's and presentations from Sony first party studios. Naughty Dog - Uncharted - Pages 33 - 39, 49, 54 - https://github.com/hww/game_programmer_reading/raw/master/nd/Naughty-Dog-GDC08-UNCHARTED-Tech.pdf https://github.com/hww/game_programmer_reading/raw/master/nd... Gorilla Games - KillZone 2 SPU Case Study - All of it - https://ubm-twvideo01.s3.amazonaws.com/o1/vault/gdc09/slides/GDC2009-vdLeeuw-KZ2SPUsCaseStudy.pdf https://ubm-twvideo01.s3.amazonaws.com/o1/vault/gdc09/slides... Insomniac Games - Insomniac’s SPU Best Practices Hard-won lessons we’re applying to a 3rd generation PS3 title Slides 46 - 48 https://www.slideserve.com/aldona/insomniac-s-spu-best-practices-hard-won-lessons-we-re-applying-to-a-3rd-generation-ps3-title https://www.slideserve.com/aldona/insomniac-s-spu-best-pract...
rbanffy 5y ago
> had some kind of edge compared to normal PCs. They did, but the Cell SPUs were hard to program and that edge quickly eroded as the Cell proved to be a dead end and x86 CPUs continued to evolve.
- agent327 5y ago
  It was the GPUs that evolved, not the CPUs. The original PS3 design didn't have a dedicated GPU (but, I believe, two Cells instead, one being dedicated to graphics rendering). A GPU was added as it became obvious that this design had a massive advantage over the Cell design.
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    > It was the GPUs that evolved, not the CPUs. That's not quite true. Every architecture iteration brought an increase in IPC, while every process improvement allowed for higher clocks and lower power dissipation. It's true that GPUs evolved a lot more - but that's mostly by getting bigger, wider, and having wider, faster pipes to its own RAM and the shared PCIe bus, as well as bigger heatsinks and fans.

throwaway2077 5y ago

"I want to play pirated games" is a perfectly legitimate reason

8draco8 5y ago
This is the true reason that I feel like everybody are dancing around. Let's not lie to ourselves, hacking consoles in PS1, PS2 and DC era was for pirating games. Running unlicensed apps or linux was just a nice side effect of true goal. This days it's far less popular because of size, connectivity and prices of games.
- p1necone 5y ago
  That might be the true reason for the average person downloading it and jailbreaking their own system, but the dev side of the ps3 jailbreaking scene only really started in earnest when Sony patched out the OtherOS feature. You couldn't run PS3 games via OtherOS, but hackers didn't care because running their own code really is all they care about.
- hnlmorg 5y ago
  For some people your point will be valid. But there are a lot of people who hacked older consoles because: + They wanted to region unlock it (this is particularly true in Europe where there is a big demand for Japanese games that weren't released over here) + They wanted to run the console at 60hz rather than 50hz (this is true for the much older consoles and again mostly a thing in Europe because some PAL games would run slower than NTSC games. eg Sonic 1 on the Mega Drive) + Linux. This was a big incentive behind the PS3 cracks because of the PS3's interesting Cell Processor design. Later the removal of "Other OS" added to the incentive to jailbreak the PS3 + Media Centres. The reason I've soft modded my Xboxes was to run XBMC + Retro gaming. Plenty of systems have been jailbroken so that their owners could play classic Nintendo / Sega / Atari / Amiga / NeoGeo games from the 80s and 90s. Technically it's still breaking copyright laws but given the age of those games some turn a blind eye because it isn't hurting the developers of new games (I'm not saying I agree with their argument either for or against, just presenting their views) + Some systems wouldn't allow you to play homebrew games (3rd party titles that are unlicensed from the console manufacturer but granted copyright licence by the games developer). So they're legal to play but the only way to do that was via hacking the console + Some jailbreak simply because they want to exercise their right to hack their own hardware. And this isn't just uber nerds either, I've met a surprising number of people who have done it just because they read an article somewhere and thought it sounded fun. + ...and yes, some do it to pirate modern games too. But the risk there is always that your device doesn't support future software updates and thus no longer supports modern games online. So it's a bit daft buying a console if you know you're going to pirate modern games; you're much better off with a PC (this was as true 15 years ago as it is now). As it happens, I welcome the lack of DRM on the Sega CD because I have a few discs that are scratched and thus don't play properly. So I can keep the original discs and cases around but play CD-R copies. I can imagine needing this option more and more if/when disc rot sets in on my other disc-based retro consoles too.

rbanffy 5y ago

The last “interesting” PlayStation in that regard was the PS3. The 4 was just a PC. The contemporary Xbox also had an interesting CPU, also PPC ISA. All successors were mostly x86 PCs. There may be some ARM fun in the future, as thermals are a huge thing now (the PS5 is mostly a heatsink with a computer attached and the newest Xbox is kind of a chimney).

PixelOfDeath 5y ago
They are x86 APUs with a very powerful GPU and high memory bandwidth. Something you can not buy on the open market to use it as a PC so far.
- easytiger 5y ago
  I think LTT had some boards they bought from China that are very similar to the ps5 mainboard. PCB even looks nearly identical with the ring configuration of the layout. https://linustechtips.com/topic/1383323-why-is-amd-selling-broken-playstations/ https://linustechtips.com/topic/1383323-why-is-amd-selling-b...
  - MikusR 5y ago
    Those have the gpu disabled
  - doikor 5y ago
    But that is just the CPU. Basically the expensive part (the beefy integrated gpu) is not working and thus the still working parts (cpu, memory, io, etc) are being sold instead of being thrown into trash.
    - easytiger 5y ago
      Yea, I was just pointing it out.
- rbanffy 5y ago
  That’s a good point. The 5 has about the same memory bandwidth of an M1 Max, which is something you’ll only find in 2-socket big Xeons (NUMA excepted), but the PS4 is on the same ballpark of a Threadripper Pro. Still, they are very much PCs with memory systems that are not available in general purpose boxes of the same price. I remember, however, some benchmarks on motherboards with console CPUs that were somewhat disappointing because the GDDR6 memory has high bandwidth at a higher latency cost that the internal caches couldn’t hide. Still, if you can tune your workload for it, it may be an interesting compute box.

stordoff 5y ago

> The main reason to legitimately jailbreak a PS4 back in the day was to get back the Linux functionality Sony took away from its users That was the PS3, through the OtherOS feature[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

solarkraft 5y ago

But aren’t modern consoles generally pretty good PCs at comparatively low prices?

Gigachad 5y ago
Sort of. When they came out, the specs were pretty good and the price was good. But supply shortages meant that realistically, you are paying more than RRP anyway. And it’s not like you will be able to install windows on a ps5 and use it as a replacement PC even if it is theoretically possible.
- robin_reala 5y ago
  Sure, but you might be able to install Linux for example.
hnlmorg 5y ago
No. Consoles aren't good general computing devices. But they are good at specific domains of computing.
- formerly_proven 5y ago
  Why not? A PS5 or whatever the current Xbox is have pretty much the same I/O as a SFF PC. Bunch of USB, HDMI, maybe DisplayPort (?), Ethernet. They have enough memory in this generation (16+ GB) to be quite useful machines. And they have GPUs which are roughly equal to a midrange card. The PS5 even has a standard M.2 slot. They're really just an SFF PC with heavily locked down software.
  - hnlmorg 5y ago
    Because of all the little things they don't have: Keyboard and mouse, office suit. command line, etc. Sure you could probably solve all of those problems with enough time and money but you'd end up with something that's neither the same as the original console nor cheaper and easier to maintain than a mid-range laptop. This is what general computing is about these days. Most consumer devices these days are powerful enough to do most general computing tasks. Even watches! But it's all the additional stuff you need to do to expose that power that prevents it from being a good general purpose device. Whereas consoles are can be well suited in other domains outside of gaming even without installing additional peripherals nor hacking the OS.

Abishek_Muthian 5y ago

I don't use cracked games or SW but would like my game consoles jailbroken for general computing after they become obsolete i.e. no new games support them (or) no SW updates. A computer is a computer, anything which could be converted into a general computer is a win for me and for the environment.

Nursie 5y ago

> Jailbroken consoles are not worth it anymore since they are so close to computers in features and functionality With around the same graphics power as a Radeon 5700xt/6700 card, with the whole PS5 system costing around the same as that card, a jailbroken console actually looks like pretty good value right now. If it could be broken enough to run a general purpose OS with acceleration enabled.