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On the other hand... suppose they get it right? A desktop on Linux that looks good and works, and is shipped pre-installed on desktops and laptops like.... Win

On the other hand... suppose they get it right? A desktop on Linux that looks good and works, and is shipped pre-installed on desktops and laptops like.... Windows and MacOS? The chances are pretty small, but if they want to write their own desktop, then good luck to them. There are enough Rust enthusiasts, that if they choose to also open source it, they'll likely make a lot more progress too. This is the kind of thing that the 'rewrite it in Rust' crowd get excited about.

cle 5y ago
Get what right? The existing DEs are rather excellent.
- DrBazza 5y ago
  Hit the sweet spot for consumers. It’s been the year of the Linux desktop for a couple of decades now.
  - cle 5y ago
    IMO the DEs themselves are excellent, the problems that keep consumers from adopting Linux have nothing to do with DEs themselves (network effects, hardware support, etc.). The only reason my wife doesn't use Linux is b/c it doesn't have the apps she wants, and hardware issues (Bluetooth headsets don't work without ruining the audio quality, sleep/hibernation is hit-or-miss, etc.). I just don't see any issues with DEs that are preventing people from using Linux...I would love to shown wrong, because I would love to see more Linux adoption. But this just seems like a waste of time.
  - TacticalCoder 5y ago
    > It’s been the year of the Linux desktop for a couple of decades now. Funnily enough, since when Linux started and somehow some people thought it'd be the "Windows killer", Linux now powers pretty much the entire real world (servers / routers / phones / appliances). There are billions of devices running Linux. And still... Because somehow Linux never got to more than 2.5% desktop market share, many see Linux as a failure. This is both funny and mindboggling.
- gravypod 5y ago
  For most use cases. There are a set of odd behaviors that turn some people away. LinusTechTips is doing a set of videos where they (Linus & Luke) installed Linux based OSs on their home gaming desktops. They are QAing Linux as "the average tech enthusiast would see it" and it is very insightful. Stream discussion 1: https://youtu.be/mvk5tVMZQ_U?t=1247 https://youtu.be/mvk5tVMZQ_U?t=1247 Stream discussion 2: https://youtu.be/mN3QFw2BEcw?t=3587 https://youtu.be/mN3QFw2BEcw?t=3587 Stream discussion 3: https://youtu.be/5MAlgKdsdvg?t=1820 https://youtu.be/5MAlgKdsdvg?t=1820 Stream discussion 4: https://youtu.be/h0boUNc1JOg?t=3148 https://youtu.be/h0boUNc1JOg?t=3148 These are just their discussions (foreshadowing the upcoming videos) but there is some really insightful discussion about what is still hard for someone who hasn't used Linux and what isn't. Some of their first hurdles they had to overcome was issues with their DE, window manager, and other random things that sort of worked correctly but needed a lot of polish to be "just right" or competitive with Windows or MacOS for most users.
  - ziml77 5y ago
    And those discussions on the WAN Show really highlight how much of a bubble some people live in. People disagreeing that there's anything wrong with the Linux way of doing things. People not realizing that there are plenty of people who sit in a spot between hacker nerd and web browsing grandmother. Linus is coming at it from a very realistic angle, but some people are very defensive about the criticisms. They're basically telling him he's "holding it wrong". The Linux community needs to listen to criticisms and find ways to improve the user experience. The nature of choice when it comes to everything you run on Linux means that nothing needs to be compromised for the power user. So what's the harm in making the default experience more friendly and seamless?
    - cle 5y ago
      > People disagreeing that there's anything wrong with the Linux way of doing things There is a lot wrong with Linux usability. But Linux != desktop environments. The main usability problems that I've encountered with my non-tech friends are app availability and hardware support. Neither of those will be affected by rewriting a desktop environment from scratch in another language.
- unixbane 5y ago
  They really aren't. Substantiation for some idiots who will downvote me despite parent comment not providing substantiation: Slowness, slowness, bugs, bugs, more bugs, security vulnerabilities mostly due to insane NIH ways of doing basic IPC stuff.
  - otabdeveloper4 5y ago
    So exactly like every other non-Linux desktop environment? You're not making the case for not using Linux here.
    - unixbane 5y ago
      Sorry, I was not following whatever the parents were talking about. I just saw someone claiming Linux DEs are excellent and reacted to that.
bluGill 5y ago
All that can be better done by polishing an existing desktop. KDE is my preference and just needs a bit of work. GNOME is popular as well and some effort would help. Doing their own thing just means duplicating 20 years of effort that those projects have done.
- Zababa 5y ago
  No, because you don't control the base project. For example, GNOME had a recent article about removing borders for buttons. I personally find that decision terrible. If you don't want to follow that decision, you're basically going to have to maintain a fork. > Doing their own thing just means duplicating 20 years of effort that those projects have done. Not really, because part of that time is spent learning things, trying thigns, and part of that time may be unnecessary.
  - md8z 5y ago
    Or you could just learn and adapt as people always do and get used to having buttons with no borders, or the colors being slightly different, or whatever the issue is. I think it really is ridiculous how the userspace people will get into petty fights and fork things over such minor issues, it makes the whole community look bad and look like nobody is getting along. For whatever reason the kernel doesn't seem to have this problem, but then again, I guess only a handful of people will ever care if a new kernel API has typos in the header.
    - Zababa 5y ago
      Having already lived through Windows XP to Windows 10, I don't want to waste my life adapting to the latest idea of designers every 2 years.
      - md8z 5y ago
        I don't really get it. I mean, I hear your frustration, but you're saying you would rather spend your life maintaining a fork? I hope you see how that's also a bad option... How can this be done so everybody wins?

cle 5y ago

Get what right? The existing DEs are rather excellent.

DrBazza 5y ago
Hit the sweet spot for consumers. It’s been the year of the Linux desktop for a couple of decades now.
- cle 5y ago
  IMO the DEs themselves are excellent, the problems that keep consumers from adopting Linux have nothing to do with DEs themselves (network effects, hardware support, etc.). The only reason my wife doesn't use Linux is b/c it doesn't have the apps she wants, and hardware issues (Bluetooth headsets don't work without ruining the audio quality, sleep/hibernation is hit-or-miss, etc.). I just don't see any issues with DEs that are preventing people from using Linux...I would love to shown wrong, because I would love to see more Linux adoption. But this just seems like a waste of time.
- TacticalCoder 5y ago
  > It’s been the year of the Linux desktop for a couple of decades now. Funnily enough, since when Linux started and somehow some people thought it'd be the "Windows killer", Linux now powers pretty much the entire real world (servers / routers / phones / appliances). There are billions of devices running Linux. And still... Because somehow Linux never got to more than 2.5% desktop market share, many see Linux as a failure. This is both funny and mindboggling.
gravypod 5y ago
For most use cases. There are a set of odd behaviors that turn some people away. LinusTechTips is doing a set of videos where they (Linus & Luke) installed Linux based OSs on their home gaming desktops. They are QAing Linux as "the average tech enthusiast would see it" and it is very insightful. Stream discussion 1: https://youtu.be/mvk5tVMZQ_U?t=1247 https://youtu.be/mvk5tVMZQ_U?t=1247 Stream discussion 2: https://youtu.be/mN3QFw2BEcw?t=3587 https://youtu.be/mN3QFw2BEcw?t=3587 Stream discussion 3: https://youtu.be/5MAlgKdsdvg?t=1820 https://youtu.be/5MAlgKdsdvg?t=1820 Stream discussion 4: https://youtu.be/h0boUNc1JOg?t=3148 https://youtu.be/h0boUNc1JOg?t=3148 These are just their discussions (foreshadowing the upcoming videos) but there is some really insightful discussion about what is still hard for someone who hasn't used Linux and what isn't. Some of their first hurdles they had to overcome was issues with their DE, window manager, and other random things that sort of worked correctly but needed a lot of polish to be "just right" or competitive with Windows or MacOS for most users.
- ziml77 5y ago
  And those discussions on the WAN Show really highlight how much of a bubble some people live in. People disagreeing that there's anything wrong with the Linux way of doing things. People not realizing that there are plenty of people who sit in a spot between hacker nerd and web browsing grandmother. Linus is coming at it from a very realistic angle, but some people are very defensive about the criticisms. They're basically telling him he's "holding it wrong". The Linux community needs to listen to criticisms and find ways to improve the user experience. The nature of choice when it comes to everything you run on Linux means that nothing needs to be compromised for the power user. So what's the harm in making the default experience more friendly and seamless?
  - cle 5y ago
    > People disagreeing that there's anything wrong with the Linux way of doing things There is a lot wrong with Linux usability. But Linux != desktop environments. The main usability problems that I've encountered with my non-tech friends are app availability and hardware support. Neither of those will be affected by rewriting a desktop environment from scratch in another language.
unixbane 5y ago
They really aren't. Substantiation for some idiots who will downvote me despite parent comment not providing substantiation: Slowness, slowness, bugs, bugs, more bugs, security vulnerabilities mostly due to insane NIH ways of doing basic IPC stuff.
- otabdeveloper4 5y ago
  So exactly like every other non-Linux desktop environment? You're not making the case for not using Linux here.
  - unixbane 5y ago
    Sorry, I was not following whatever the parents were talking about. I just saw someone claiming Linux DEs are excellent and reacted to that.

bluGill 5y ago

All that can be better done by polishing an existing desktop. KDE is my preference and just needs a bit of work. GNOME is popular as well and some effort would help. Doing their own thing just means duplicating 20 years of effort that those projects have done.

Zababa 5y ago
No, because you don't control the base project. For example, GNOME had a recent article about removing borders for buttons. I personally find that decision terrible. If you don't want to follow that decision, you're basically going to have to maintain a fork. > Doing their own thing just means duplicating 20 years of effort that those projects have done. Not really, because part of that time is spent learning things, trying thigns, and part of that time may be unnecessary.
- md8z 5y ago
  Or you could just learn and adapt as people always do and get used to having buttons with no borders, or the colors being slightly different, or whatever the issue is. I think it really is ridiculous how the userspace people will get into petty fights and fork things over such minor issues, it makes the whole community look bad and look like nobody is getting along. For whatever reason the kernel doesn't seem to have this problem, but then again, I guess only a handful of people will ever care if a new kernel API has typos in the header.
  - Zababa 5y ago
    Having already lived through Windows XP to Windows 10, I don't want to waste my life adapting to the latest idea of designers every 2 years.
    - md8z 5y ago
      I don't really get it. I mean, I hear your frustration, but you're saying you would rather spend your life maintaining a fork? I hope you see how that's also a bad option... How can this be done so everybody wins?