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> conscientious […] by not jaywalking The term “jaywalking” is a pretty American term (that there is a term at all) invented by the car lobby way back when to

> conscientious […] by not jaywalking The term “jaywalking” is a pretty American term (that there is a term at all) invented by the car lobby way back when to stigmatize pedestrians. Of course it makes sense to cross the street (that’s what it’s called—there’s no dedicated word for it) if it is safe to do so. And of course it would be madness on any always-busy street or on a road with four lanes or more.

throw0101a 5y ago
For a good history of this see Fighting Traffic by Peter Norton: * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2924825-fighting-traffic https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2924825-fighting-traffic
ghaff 5y ago
You will definitely find places in Europe--perhaps most of all Germany--where people absolutely do not cross against lights etc. (in general). In my experience, Americans--at least in big cities (and maybe especially on the East Coast)--are far more likely to cross streets where and when they can get off with it than in many other places.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  Enforcement might be the reason for that. I never saw anyone get a a jaywalking ticket in the states, but it was an almost weekly occurrence when I lived in Lausanne. Swiss police don’t mess around. Jay walking also happens a lot in China unless some barrier or traffic warden is involved. This is the case in much of the developing world as well.
  - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
    Jaywalking tickets are very much a thing in Southern California, but you'll pretty much only get one if you're doing it in a blatantly unsafe manor.
  - Krasnol 5y ago
    I haven't seen it enforced in Germany and despite what OP said, you can see people crossing on red light in Germany too but people tend to have a greater awareness of car traffic here. You know the car driver don't expect you to cross when he's got green and the pedestrian knows that they may die because the driver doesn't expect him to cross. It's different in Poland for example. If you don't just go on a pedestrian crossing (no lights), no car will stop. Because of that it's more likely for people to cross on a red light because they know car drivers are trained to watch out for them. A really bad development. People die because of this. A very helpful campaign in Germany were signs which told you to be a good example for children. It grew into the consciousness of the population and you very rarely see people cross on red when there are kids around. Also having green on demand buttons which give you FAST results helps too. They are very popular in Germany now.
  - l0b0 5y ago
    I lived in Geneva and worked in Lausanne (not the same periods) for a few years, and never saw anyone get fined for jaywalking in either city, not even myself. :) I guess it depends where you walk…
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      It was on my daily bike commute into the city and was one road near the bridge (near the Vigie stop?) where it was just particularly tempting to jay walk.
- nemo44x 5y ago
  It’s hilarious in Germany. I’ve been at very short crossings (like 5 meters) without a car in sight and everyone just stands there waiting for the sign to change. I just cross - can’t take the New Yorker out of me.
  - markdown 5y ago
    > I just cross - can’t take the New Yorker out of me. Yup, Americans leave this impression all over the world. Loud, obnoxious tourists who don't think local laws and norms apply to them.
    - rayiner 5y ago
      Americans don’t follow laws and norms in their own country either, lol.
    - anm89 5y ago
      As someone who has spent the better part of the last decade traveling I can unequivocally say I have almost never come across non Americans who feel this way. It is ALWAYS the Americans who are the the ones loudly talking trash about how terrible Americans are. As Scott Alexander points out, these Americans counter intuitively are not being self critical when they say this, they are talking trash about the "other" Americans they don't like.
      - Sebb767 5y ago
        > As Scott Alexander points out Would you mind sharing the link to the post?
        anm89 5y ago
        Sure https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anythin... It's long but worth reading. But under break VII contains the relevant part: START QUOTE My hunch – both the Red Tribe and the Blue Tribe, for whatever reason, identify “America” with the Red Tribe. Ask people for typically “American” things, and you end up with a very Red list of characteristics – guns, religion, barbecues, American football, NASCAR, cowboys, SUVs, unrestrained capitalism. That means the Red Tribe feels intensely patriotic about “their” country, and the Blue Tribe feels like they’re living in fortified enclaves deep in hostile territory. Here is a popular piece published on a major media site called :America: A Big, Fat, Stupid Nation". Another: "America: A Bunch Of Spoiled, Whiny Brats". "Americans are ignorant, scientifically illiterate religious fanatics whose “patriotism” is actually just narcissism." "You Will Be Shocked At How Ignorant Americans Are, and we should Blame The Childish, Ignorant American People." Needless to say, every single one of these articles was written by an American and read almost entirely by Americans. Those Americans very likely enjoyed the articles very much and did not feel the least bit insulted. And look at the sources. HuffPo, Salon, Slate. Might those have anything in common? On both sides, “American” can be either a normal demonym, or a code word for a member of the Red Tribe. END QUOTE In my experience left leaning (or really blue tribe, read the article for the difference) American travelers do the same thing to try to prove to foreigners that they "aren't the bad type of Americans" (ie, the right/red tribe) that they perceive that foreigners dislike (whereas most foreigners I encounter take for granted that all kinds of people come from all places and don't judge that much by nationality), the irony being that the foreigners don't usually ever say all that much negative about the US and it's the American's who are trying to distance themselves who end up being the ones who vocally dislike America (but really just the people they think are ignorant)
- pier25 5y ago
  > Americans--at least in big cities (and maybe especially on the East Coast)--are far more likely to cross streets where and when they can get off with it than in many other places. Come to Mexico and that notion will be dispelled pretty quickly. Here you can find pedestrians crossing anywhere they please, bikes going against you, street vendor carts, and cars still crossing after a red light... all at the same time. I was in NYC just a couple of months ago and in comparison everything was quite orderly.
- earthboundkid 5y ago
  When I went to Korea after years in Japan, I was shocked to see how much jaywalking they do. Somehow that part of “Confucian values” didn’t land the same on that side of the “East Sea”.
  - yongjik 5y ago
    Korea makes up for it by having their drivers ignore signs and signals all the time. (There are some pretty good stuff I can say about Korea... "traffic safety" is not one of them.)
- forgingahead 5y ago
  You need to spend some time in Asia or Africa to get more perspective about jay-walking habits. Americans are positively Swiss compared to the vast majority of people on this planet.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
BoorishBears 5y ago
I have never seen anyone complain about "jaywalking" when it's safe to do so, because you're not impeding traffic. Here in NYC people will cross as the light turns green and end up with an entire intersection at a standstill. It's amazing because even my poorly trained Greyhound has picked up a concept of "we stop for something" at intersections. He's not quite sure what, but he'll wait for some signal from me. Yet somehow people are unable to figure that out.
- sleepydog 5y ago
  Pedestrians in NYC act like royalty. I've never seen pedestrians so fearless as in NYC. They will step out in front of a moving truck if they have the right of way. And sometimes even when they don't, if they sense the driver's hesitation. And you know what? I like it. Cars are given special treatment everywhere else in this country. I was in D.C. and VA last week and had to wait 5 minutes (!) to cross many intersections. So in NYC I sympathize for the commercial traffic and the people commuting from places without train coverage, but for everyone else, I don't really care if pedestrians hold them up. They could have been pedestrians too.
anm89 5y ago
Regardless of the history of that term, the underlying concept is not unique to the US and was not invented by the auto lobby.
- avgcorrection 5y ago
  See sibling comment: > Back then a 'jay' was basically some sort of boor or doofus. If you translated it to more modern english it would literally be idiotwalking or similar. If other cultures don’t have some kind of stigmatic word for “crossing the street without pedestrian right-of-way” then of course it is American-specific. Just like how saying “person who has several sexual partners” and “s***” are supposed to communicate two very different things.
novok 5y ago
Back then a 'jay' was basically some sort of boor or doofus. If you translated it to more modern english it would literally be idiotwalking or similar.

throw0101a 5y ago

For a good history of this see Fighting Traffic by Peter Norton: * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2924825-fighting-traffic https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2924825-fighting-traffic

ghaff 5y ago

You will definitely find places in Europe--perhaps most of all Germany--where people absolutely do not cross against lights etc. (in general). In my experience, Americans--at least in big cities (and maybe especially on the East Coast)--are far more likely to cross streets where and when they can get off with it than in many other places.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago
Enforcement might be the reason for that. I never saw anyone get a a jaywalking ticket in the states, but it was an almost weekly occurrence when I lived in Lausanne. Swiss police don’t mess around. Jay walking also happens a lot in China unless some barrier or traffic warden is involved. This is the case in much of the developing world as well.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
  Jaywalking tickets are very much a thing in Southern California, but you'll pretty much only get one if you're doing it in a blatantly unsafe manor.
- Krasnol 5y ago
  I haven't seen it enforced in Germany and despite what OP said, you can see people crossing on red light in Germany too but people tend to have a greater awareness of car traffic here. You know the car driver don't expect you to cross when he's got green and the pedestrian knows that they may die because the driver doesn't expect him to cross. It's different in Poland for example. If you don't just go on a pedestrian crossing (no lights), no car will stop. Because of that it's more likely for people to cross on a red light because they know car drivers are trained to watch out for them. A really bad development. People die because of this. A very helpful campaign in Germany were signs which told you to be a good example for children. It grew into the consciousness of the population and you very rarely see people cross on red when there are kids around. Also having green on demand buttons which give you FAST results helps too. They are very popular in Germany now.
- l0b0 5y ago
  I lived in Geneva and worked in Lausanne (not the same periods) for a few years, and never saw anyone get fined for jaywalking in either city, not even myself. :) I guess it depends where you walk…
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    It was on my daily bike commute into the city and was one road near the bridge (near the Vigie stop?) where it was just particularly tempting to jay walk.
nemo44x 5y ago
It’s hilarious in Germany. I’ve been at very short crossings (like 5 meters) without a car in sight and everyone just stands there waiting for the sign to change. I just cross - can’t take the New Yorker out of me.
- markdown 5y ago
  > I just cross - can’t take the New Yorker out of me. Yup, Americans leave this impression all over the world. Loud, obnoxious tourists who don't think local laws and norms apply to them.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    Americans don’t follow laws and norms in their own country either, lol.
  - anm89 5y ago
    As someone who has spent the better part of the last decade traveling I can unequivocally say I have almost never come across non Americans who feel this way. It is ALWAYS the Americans who are the the ones loudly talking trash about how terrible Americans are. As Scott Alexander points out, these Americans counter intuitively are not being self critical when they say this, they are talking trash about the "other" Americans they don't like.
    - Sebb767 5y ago
      > As Scott Alexander points out Would you mind sharing the link to the post?
      - anm89 5y ago
        Sure https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anythin... It's long but worth reading. But under break VII contains the relevant part: START QUOTE My hunch – both the Red Tribe and the Blue Tribe, for whatever reason, identify “America” with the Red Tribe. Ask people for typically “American” things, and you end up with a very Red list of characteristics – guns, religion, barbecues, American football, NASCAR, cowboys, SUVs, unrestrained capitalism. That means the Red Tribe feels intensely patriotic about “their” country, and the Blue Tribe feels like they’re living in fortified enclaves deep in hostile territory. Here is a popular piece published on a major media site called :America: A Big, Fat, Stupid Nation". Another: "America: A Bunch Of Spoiled, Whiny Brats". "Americans are ignorant, scientifically illiterate religious fanatics whose “patriotism” is actually just narcissism." "You Will Be Shocked At How Ignorant Americans Are, and we should Blame The Childish, Ignorant American People." Needless to say, every single one of these articles was written by an American and read almost entirely by Americans. Those Americans very likely enjoyed the articles very much and did not feel the least bit insulted. And look at the sources. HuffPo, Salon, Slate. Might those have anything in common? On both sides, “American” can be either a normal demonym, or a code word for a member of the Red Tribe. END QUOTE In my experience left leaning (or really blue tribe, read the article for the difference) American travelers do the same thing to try to prove to foreigners that they "aren't the bad type of Americans" (ie, the right/red tribe) that they perceive that foreigners dislike (whereas most foreigners I encounter take for granted that all kinds of people come from all places and don't judge that much by nationality), the irony being that the foreigners don't usually ever say all that much negative about the US and it's the American's who are trying to distance themselves who end up being the ones who vocally dislike America (but really just the people they think are ignorant)
pier25 5y ago
> Americans--at least in big cities (and maybe especially on the East Coast)--are far more likely to cross streets where and when they can get off with it than in many other places. Come to Mexico and that notion will be dispelled pretty quickly. Here you can find pedestrians crossing anywhere they please, bikes going against you, street vendor carts, and cars still crossing after a red light... all at the same time. I was in NYC just a couple of months ago and in comparison everything was quite orderly.
earthboundkid 5y ago
When I went to Korea after years in Japan, I was shocked to see how much jaywalking they do. Somehow that part of “Confucian values” didn’t land the same on that side of the “East Sea”.
- yongjik 5y ago
  Korea makes up for it by having their drivers ignore signs and signals all the time. (There are some pretty good stuff I can say about Korea... "traffic safety" is not one of them.)
forgingahead 5y ago
You need to spend some time in Asia or Africa to get more perspective about jay-walking habits. Americans are positively Swiss compared to the vast majority of people on this planet.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

BoorishBears 5y ago

I have never seen anyone complain about "jaywalking" when it's safe to do so, because you're not impeding traffic. Here in NYC people will cross as the light turns green and end up with an entire intersection at a standstill. It's amazing because even my poorly trained Greyhound has picked up a concept of "we stop for something" at intersections. He's not quite sure what, but he'll wait for some signal from me. Yet somehow people are unable to figure that out.

sleepydog 5y ago
Pedestrians in NYC act like royalty. I've never seen pedestrians so fearless as in NYC. They will step out in front of a moving truck if they have the right of way. And sometimes even when they don't, if they sense the driver's hesitation. And you know what? I like it. Cars are given special treatment everywhere else in this country. I was in D.C. and VA last week and had to wait 5 minutes (!) to cross many intersections. So in NYC I sympathize for the commercial traffic and the people commuting from places without train coverage, but for everyone else, I don't really care if pedestrians hold them up. They could have been pedestrians too.

anm89 5y ago

Regardless of the history of that term, the underlying concept is not unique to the US and was not invented by the auto lobby.

avgcorrection 5y ago
See sibling comment: > Back then a 'jay' was basically some sort of boor or doofus. If you translated it to more modern english it would literally be idiotwalking or similar. If other cultures don’t have some kind of stigmatic word for “crossing the street without pedestrian right-of-way” then of course it is American-specific. Just like how saying “person who has several sexual partners” and “s***” are supposed to communicate two very different things.

novok 5y ago

Back then a 'jay' was basically some sort of boor or doofus. If you translated it to more modern english it would literally be idiotwalking or similar.