4 ms·

University of Florida reverses course, allows professors to testify

210 points by burkaman 5y ago

burkaman 5y ago
An update to this story from a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29065265 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29065265
dekhn 5y ago
I had even money on "capitulate to the obvious" and "double down on dumb" but after yesterday where the president was lectured by a prominent expert, it was pretty obvious they knew they had failed.
duxup 5y ago
>The university initially said that, because it was a public university and faculty are government employees, it would have been a conflict of its interests to allow three prominent professors to testify for plaintiffs in a lawsuit over new voting restrictions that Gov. Ron DeSantis signed into law earlier this year. It backtracked slightly days later when it said the three would be allowed to testify if they forfeited any compensation. What was the conflict? Don't question the government?
- SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
  Apparently if you don't like what you're employer is doing you need to keep quiet?
  - ISL 5y ago
    When you are employed to attempt to ascertain and share the truth to society at large, and your immediate-employer attempts to block that critical societal function, it is okay to appeal to the sensibilities of your employer's boss -- society itself.
  - klyrs 5y ago
    More like, if you disagree with the politics that your employer's investors have lobbied for, you need to keep quiet. The lawsuit doesn't appear to have anything to do with the operation of U of F.
  - dekhn 5y ago
    Most of the time, yes. But in the case of a tenured professor acting in the interest of the public, academic freedom trumps that.
- ysavir 5y ago
  Since the law suit is against the state, and as state school professors they are paid by the state and are employees of the state, it's somewhat reasonable to see a conflict of interest for them to testify when the defendant is their employer. That said, it should be up to the lawyers and parties involved in the law suit to evaluate that conflict of interest. There was no reason for the school to interfere there.
  - mistrial9 5y ago
    > it's somewhat reasonable to see a conflict of interest for them to testify when the defendant is their employer this is directly false in the US system of law
    - NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
      Which law?
      - klyrs 5y ago
        > system of law Your parent said nothing about a specific law. They're talking about the practice of law. But let's turn that around. If this is a conflict of interest, can you identify for us where that is codified?
        robbedpeter 5y ago
        Exactly - government of the people by the people is the relevant concept. Even the president has almost all the rights of a private citizen.
        NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
        Specific laws are required in courts. So which law?
      - mistrial9 5y ago
        (I am not a lawyer and I do not play one on the Internet) lets say it is important to notice this is a State-funded school, the students are adults and the Faculty have long and detailed legal protections in law, in addition to Constitutional rights as individuals. yes, as noted, the legal framework of law in the USA
- throwawaycities 5y ago
  There is no conflict of interest. Expert witnesses get called to testify by either party and it’s industry standard they get compensated for their time. That doesn’t create any conflict of interest, and for the University to suggest it does is basically saying they believe their own professors are so unethical they would commit the crime of perjury in exchange for a meager expert witness payment. Also, the idea they are a expert witness for the plaintiff in a case against the government creates a conflict because they work for a public university is the opposite of a conflict of interest. Whereas there would be more of a conflict if the experts were witnesses for the defendant (ie their employer). The University is so tone deaf they don’t realize it’s a conflict of interest for the university to prevent professors from acting as experts in cases against parties that fund the university and even worse that they back track in the face of public exposure and pressure by allowing them to testify on the condition they can’t be compensated as expert witnesses…it’s a clear attempt to punish the professors if they do testify, which they probably won’t do now since they aren’t being compensated for their time.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    > a meager expert witness payment To be fair expert witnesses get a few hundred an hour in compensation for preparing plus actually testifying. That being said in the grand scheme of things it's hardly a fortune, but compared to an average professor salary it's probably a decent bonus.
    - nickff 5y ago
      Many people make a living off being expert witnesses; often medical experts, computer experts, and others with subject matter expertise.
      - dylan604 5y ago
        Those that can't do, teach. Those that can't teach, testify? Those that can't testify, teach PE?
    - dekhn 5y ago
- supercheetah 5y ago
  That shouldn't even matter. A conflict of interest doesn't invalidate what they would have to say. The problems with conflicts of interest in testimony is when that's deliberately hidden from anyone to see. Keep that in the open, and any problems from it will also be in the open.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
throwaway879080 5y ago
not sure why you need a professor to testify that one needs to present an ID to vote, seems common sense
CrazyStat 5y ago
> In the federal voting rights lawsuit, U.S. District Judge Mark Walker on Thursday blocked efforts by plaintiffs to question a representative of the governor’s office to see whether it played a role in UF’s decision to block the testimony by the professors. But Walker added that he was “not saying there is no issue here,” and openly speculated in his ruling that federal prosecutors could pursue felony witness-intimidation charges and said the plaintiffs might sue over the matter in civil court. Hopefully they don't just drop the matter here and actually pursue criminal and/or civil cases as suggested. There needs to be repercussions for this shit beyond just "oops, nevermind."
- WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
  ref: Judge Mark Walker Ballotpedia https://ballotpedia.org/Mark_E._Walker https://ballotpedia.org/Mark_E._Walker Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_E._Walker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_E._Walker
endisneigh 5y ago
not surprising. they've done it before.
WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
Note: The chairman of the UF Board of Trustees is Mori Hosseini, a close DeSantis advisor+donor. Hosseini is also the same person who fast-tracked FL's new covid-nurturing Surgeon General, Joseph Ladapo. ref: https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/local/state/2021/10/28/florida-surgeon-general-desantis-megadonor-connected-joseph-ladapo-uf-emails-mori-hosseini/8583049002/ https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/local/state/2021/10/2...
queuebert 5y ago
Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
throwawaysea 5y ago
Thank you FIRE for the pressure to uphold free speech in academia: https://www.thefire.org/in-letter-to-university-of-florida-fire-demands-university-rescind-controversial-decision-banning-professors-voting-rights-testimony/ https://www.thefire.org/in-letter-to-university-of-florida-f... There’s also now a congressional resolution to support free speech in education in the works: https://www.thefire.org/congressional-free-speech-resolution-highlights-fire-research/ https://www.thefire.org/congressional-free-speech-resolution...

210 points by burkaman 5y ago

An update to this story from a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29065265 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29065265

dekhn 5y ago

I had even money on "capitulate to the obvious" and "double down on dumb" but after yesterday where the president was lectured by a prominent expert, it was pretty obvious they knew they had failed.

duxup 5y ago

>The university initially said that, because it was a public university and faculty are government employees, it would have been a conflict of its interests to allow three prominent professors to testify for plaintiffs in a lawsuit over new voting restrictions that Gov. Ron DeSantis signed into law earlier this year. It backtracked slightly days later when it said the three would be allowed to testify if they forfeited any compensation. What was the conflict? Don't question the government?

SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
Apparently if you don't like what you're employer is doing you need to keep quiet?
- ISL 5y ago
  When you are employed to attempt to ascertain and share the truth to society at large, and your immediate-employer attempts to block that critical societal function, it is okay to appeal to the sensibilities of your employer's boss -- society itself.
- klyrs 5y ago
  More like, if you disagree with the politics that your employer's investors have lobbied for, you need to keep quiet. The lawsuit doesn't appear to have anything to do with the operation of U of F.
- dekhn 5y ago
  Most of the time, yes. But in the case of a tenured professor acting in the interest of the public, academic freedom trumps that.
ysavir 5y ago
Since the law suit is against the state, and as state school professors they are paid by the state and are employees of the state, it's somewhat reasonable to see a conflict of interest for them to testify when the defendant is their employer. That said, it should be up to the lawyers and parties involved in the law suit to evaluate that conflict of interest. There was no reason for the school to interfere there.
- mistrial9 5y ago
  > it's somewhat reasonable to see a conflict of interest for them to testify when the defendant is their employer this is directly false in the US system of law
  - NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
    Which law?
    - klyrs 5y ago
      > system of law Your parent said nothing about a specific law. They're talking about the practice of law. But let's turn that around. If this is a conflict of interest, can you identify for us where that is codified?
      - robbedpeter 5y ago
        Exactly - government of the people by the people is the relevant concept. Even the president has almost all the rights of a private citizen.
      - NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
        Specific laws are required in courts. So which law?
    - mistrial9 5y ago
      (I am not a lawyer and I do not play one on the Internet) lets say it is important to notice this is a State-funded school, the students are adults and the Faculty have long and detailed legal protections in law, in addition to Constitutional rights as individuals. yes, as noted, the legal framework of law in the USA
throwawaycities 5y ago
There is no conflict of interest. Expert witnesses get called to testify by either party and it’s industry standard they get compensated for their time. That doesn’t create any conflict of interest, and for the University to suggest it does is basically saying they believe their own professors are so unethical they would commit the crime of perjury in exchange for a meager expert witness payment. Also, the idea they are a expert witness for the plaintiff in a case against the government creates a conflict because they work for a public university is the opposite of a conflict of interest. Whereas there would be more of a conflict if the experts were witnesses for the defendant (ie their employer). The University is so tone deaf they don’t realize it’s a conflict of interest for the university to prevent professors from acting as experts in cases against parties that fund the university and even worse that they back track in the face of public exposure and pressure by allowing them to testify on the condition they can’t be compensated as expert witnesses…it’s a clear attempt to punish the professors if they do testify, which they probably won’t do now since they aren’t being compensated for their time.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  > a meager expert witness payment To be fair expert witnesses get a few hundred an hour in compensation for preparing plus actually testifying. That being said in the grand scheme of things it's hardly a fortune, but compared to an average professor salary it's probably a decent bonus.
  - nickff 5y ago
    Many people make a living off being expert witnesses; often medical experts, computer experts, and others with subject matter expertise.
    - dylan604 5y ago
      Those that can't do, teach. Those that can't teach, testify? Those that can't testify, teach PE?
  - dekhn 5y ago
supercheetah 5y ago
That shouldn't even matter. A conflict of interest doesn't invalidate what they would have to say. The problems with conflicts of interest in testimony is when that's deliberately hidden from anyone to see. Keep that in the open, and any problems from it will also be in the open.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

throwaway879080 5y ago

not sure why you need a professor to testify that one needs to present an ID to vote, seems common sense

CrazyStat 5y ago

> In the federal voting rights lawsuit, U.S. District Judge Mark Walker on Thursday blocked efforts by plaintiffs to question a representative of the governor’s office to see whether it played a role in UF’s decision to block the testimony by the professors. But Walker added that he was “not saying there is no issue here,” and openly speculated in his ruling that federal prosecutors could pursue felony witness-intimidation charges and said the plaintiffs might sue over the matter in civil court. Hopefully they don't just drop the matter here and actually pursue criminal and/or civil cases as suggested. There needs to be repercussions for this shit beyond just "oops, nevermind."

WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
ref: Judge Mark Walker Ballotpedia https://ballotpedia.org/Mark_E._Walker https://ballotpedia.org/Mark_E._Walker Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_E._Walker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_E._Walker

endisneigh 5y ago

not surprising. they've done it before.

WarOnPrivacy 5y ago

Note: The chairman of the UF Board of Trustees is Mori Hosseini, a close DeSantis advisor+donor. Hosseini is also the same person who fast-tracked FL's new covid-nurturing Surgeon General, Joseph Ladapo. ref: https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/local/state/2021/10/28/florida-surgeon-general-desantis-megadonor-connected-joseph-ladapo-uf-emails-mori-hosseini/8583049002/ https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/local/state/2021/10/2...

queuebert 5y ago

Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

throwawaysea 5y ago

Thank you FIRE for the pressure to uphold free speech in academia: https://www.thefire.org/in-letter-to-university-of-florida-fire-demands-university-rescind-controversial-decision-banning-professors-voting-rights-testimony/ https://www.thefire.org/in-letter-to-university-of-florida-f... There’s also now a congressional resolution to support free speech in education in the works: https://www.thefire.org/congressional-free-speech-resolution-highlights-fire-research/ https://www.thefire.org/congressional-free-speech-resolution...