25 ms·

China says it will hold supporters of Taiwan's independence responsible for life

174 points by phantomathkg 5y ago

flurben 5y ago
Considering that Taiwan is already independent and would need to be persuaded to join the PRC, these kinds of threats seem counterproductive to China's goals of "peaceful reunification".
- capableweb 5y ago
  > Considering that Taiwan is already independent From your perspective, maybe. But not from China's perspective. > these kinds of threats seem counterproductive to China's goals of "peaceful reunification" Imposing economic sanctions until the country has to oblige to China's request I'm sure is seen as "peaceful" from China's perspective. I think the only thing that is far away is outright war, but everything else would be considered "peaceful".
  - athenot 5y ago
    The US has imposed similar "peaceful" economic sanctions on a few countries until they obliged to requests too. This move is hardly specific to Chinese diplomacy.
    - stjohnswarts 5y ago
      They still are with Venezuela and Cuba. Both are ridiculous and only hurting the people of the country. While we regularly cavort with countries like Saudi Arabia.
  - papito 5y ago
    Typical HN relativism and intellectualization. In its current state, Taiwan is independent, and it will require either: a) Taiwanese consensus to officially rejoin China. b) An act of war. We can discuss China's perspective all day, but it does not change the status quo. What about the perspective of Russia? Australia? South Africa? Which one is true? Is anything true?
    - mytailorisrich 5y ago
      We need to interpret what is meant by "Taiwan independence" here. Taiwan is currently not part of the PRC (and never has been part of it, actually), but it is what's left of the Republic of China. There are roughly 3 point of views and aims: 1. The PRC claims that the Republic of China ceased to exist in 1949 and that Taiwan is part of the PRC. 2. The ROC still exists but is currently only surviving in Taiwan. In this sense Taiwan is an independent state but it is still China (just not the PRC) and still ultimate goal is still to re-unify. 3. Taiwan is an independent country, not part of 'China' and not aiming to re-unify at all. Usually, "supporting Taiwan independence" means #3. The current state of play is #2 at least formally (Taiwan is independent but not #3). The PRC government's policy is obviously #1 but they know that the reality is #2 and that's the 'status quo', but it is #3 that is the casus belli for them.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - stjohnswarts 5y ago
        I don't think anyone except a few hold outs in Taiwan see #2 as viable or practical. I'm a fan of 3.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- rndgermandude 5y ago
  >Considering that Taiwan is already independent Not according to the PRC, and a lot of countries and international institutions either. Some (usually with close ties to China, but now always, e.g. Spain[1], probably because they do not want to give their own separatist movements any political ammunition) consider the ROC part of the PRC, others are deliberately vague on whether they consider Taiwan independent or even a nation, like e.g. the US[0]. The WHO for example is very adept at avoiding any position on Taiwan[2]. And then of course, there is this guy... [3]. (Just if you like some cringe about a serious topic) >China's goals of "peaceful reunification". (PR) China doesn't really talk about peaceful reunification. They officially consider Taiwan part of the country already, a part that is just a little rebellious at the moment. They are more talking about a peaceful end of the conflict, but recently use the word "peaceful" a lot less. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_of_deliberate_ambiguity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_of_deliberate_ambiguity [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain%E2%80%93Taiwan_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain%E2%80%93Taiwan_relations [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlCYFh8U2xM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlCYFh8U2xM [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z88zeQ25pjQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z88zeQ25pjQ
  - darkwater 5y ago
    Remove the "probably" for Spain, it's totally for that reason. They also have the same stance on the Republic of Kosovo with some "hilarious" moment when there was the footbal World Cup qualification match between Kosovo and Spain, with TV in Spain forces to use lower case for Kosovo, commentarists avoiding to say the K-word etc.
    - rndgermandude 5y ago
      It's not officially officially the government-provided reason, but everybody knows what's up, sure.
  - flurben 5y ago
    I think you're conflating 'international recognition' with 'independence.' Taiwan is functionally independent, currently, no matter what China, or John Cena or the Government of Djibouti says. In fact there is no need for Taiwan to 'declare independence' because it has never been part of the PRC.
- bsedlm 5y ago
  > Considering that Taiwan is already independent and would need to be persuaded to join the PRC, these kinds of threats seem counterproductive to China's goals of "peaceful reunification". --flurben so flurben will now be criminally responsible for life (in China)?
  - rndgermandude 5y ago
    Correct. If flurben ever wants to go to China incl Hong Kong and Macau, and the officials there google a bit, that might be a problem. Probably not jailed, but no visa either. It will also be a problem for companies who deal with Chinese companies. If e.g. Tim Cook started talking about the nation of Taiwan, he would probably get an email from somebody with a .gov.cn address reminding him "Nice Foxconn supplier you got there, would be a shame if something happened to your contracts... wanna revise your recent statements?" Well, that even was a problem before this announcement, but this announcement certainly will make it worse.
    - throwaway2474 5y ago
      > Nice Foxconn supplier you got there, would be a shame if something happened to your contracts More like “nice market you got there, would be a shame if a PR disaster turned the whole country against you”
      - rndgermandude 5y ago
        Huawei survived Trump, China is building a lot of international bridges e.g. with the Belt and Road initiative, the EU and US are defacto dependent on China because that's where they outsourced a lot of their product and supply chains. China never gave a fuck about what the populations in the West thought about them, because they know that even outraged Westerners will not stop buying products made in China. China had one "PR disaster" after another for years and years now, e.g. recent things like imprisoned Chinese dissidents getting the Nobel Peace price in absentia, anything happening in Hong Kong, and in the Chinese sea, and the "reeducation" camps for Uyghurs. They didn't budge after tiananmen square, they didn't budge after the Dalai Lama got popular, they didn't budge after any of the recent stuff. What makes you think they will budge in the future? They don't really need the West, but the West needs them (for the forseeable future). Their markets may take a hit if push comes to shove with the West, but that's fine with them. And they have a home market with 1.7 billion customers, and many other foreign markets in Asia, Africa or South America that will still deal with them.
- refurb 5y ago
  This is the golden rule of nations - no nation “owns” anything. It’s only what you can defend and get other nations to recognize. Remember there are pro-China factions in Taiwan. All China needs to do is invade, suppress dissent and elevate the views of those few who are happy with the outcome. And with that ‘A “rogue” state of China lead by “seditionists, Western mercenaries and reactionaries” will then have been “rightfully pacified and reunified” with China in accordance with the “will of the people”’. And just like that…an independent country ceases to exist.
- redis_mlc 5y ago
  > China's goals of "peaceful reunification". That was officially revoked recently: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-parliament-taiwan/china-drops-word-peaceful-in-latest-push-for-taiwan-reunification-idUSKBN22Y06S https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-parliament-taiwan/c...
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  At this point I'm not sure what will happen when China eventually attacks Taiwan. It is a vital resource for the USA in terms of their sheer semiconductor industrial output. It doesn't really seem that the USA would get involved in such a fight though, or make more than a token effort. I think Taiwan missed their chance in the 80s to become a nuclear power when China was busy with other stuff, now it's too late and they are all but doomed to eventual takeover by China.
  - davidjytang 5y ago
    US terminated Taiwan's nuclear program in 1988. They confiscated fuel rod, data, research paper, poured cement into the labs and dismantled the heavy water reactor that was worth around 2 billion USD.
qeternity 5y ago
> China'll That's an interesting grammatical contraction...
- capableweb 5y ago
  Reacted to that too, seems to be because of the length limit (80). "China will hold supporters of Taiwan independence criminally responsible for life" has 81 characters.
  - jjoonathan 5y ago
    But this is 80 too: "China to hold supporters of Taiwan independence criminally responsible for life."
  - salzig 5y ago
    maybe it's correct, "China II. will hold supporters of Taiwan...".
- sdoering 5y ago
  I am not a native speaker and stumbled over this massively. Had to read the headline thrice until I realized what bugged me.
  - yosito 5y ago
    That's interesting to me. I guess contractions of "I'll", "he'll", "she'll" and "they'll" are probably pretty common, but with other things, not commonly written. As a native speaker, I wouldn't have even noticed. In spoken English, I think I'd say things like this 100% of the time. Recently, I've been learning Hungarian, which is an agglutinative language where meaning is added via endings on words. For example, "with" is the ending "-val", so "with yosito" becomes "yosito-val". I found it really hard to follow at first, since virtually every word in Hungarian is like this, and I see some similarities with contractions in English.
  - heurisko 5y ago
    As a native speaker it made me faintly irritated, as the 'll informal contraction didn't fit the right tone for the title.
adolph 5y ago
Does it count if you support the PRC territory reunited under the auspices of the ROC? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Chinas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Chinas
- irthomasthomas 5y ago
  I often wonder why we don't use North China, and South China. I guess it boils down to influence.
  - HideousKojima 5y ago
    Personally I prefer "Taiwan" and "West Taiwan" solely to annoy pro-CCP shills/50 cent army posters.
    - jjoonathan 5y ago
      My favorite way to poke the 50 cent army is to say I hope that Taiwan has nukes / the US should give Taiwan nukes. It cuts right to the core dissonance between the "Taiwan was always part of China" claims and the actual sovereignty situation on the ground.
      - stevespang 5y ago
        [dead]
      - adolph 5y ago
        Do they not already have one of those totally peaceful, totally civilian nuclear programs?
  - kingkawn 5y ago
    Cause the terminology is not historically relevant to the region or the way people talk about those areas
    - adolph 5y ago
throwawaymanbot 5y ago
lol china! What does 4Lyfe(tm) mean to someone who would never visit China anyway? What would the world think?
bellyfullofbac 5y ago
A stupid throwaway said (I paraphrase) "why should it matter, I will never visit China", but imagine the near future where China is as powerful as the US (maybe during the 2nd Trump administration, I wish I can say I'm being sarcastic). Currently if you end up in the US sanctions list, no bank will ever talk to you, imagine if China starts having the same effect. Already corporations are bending to China's demands (Apple, NBA, Gap, and more: https://signal.supchina.com/all-the-international-brands-that-have-apologized-to-china/ https://signal.supchina.com/all-the-international-brands-tha... ).
- duxup 5y ago
  Even just employment. If your employer's ease of access to China is at risk versus your employment.... I doubt many companies side with individual.
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    Yeah.. so, "chilling effects". Soon you'll be censoring yourself: "Don't blab about that shit on Twitter, if the customer complains to the CEO and we lose the deal..."
- poorjohnmacafee 5y ago
  One could argue they've already achieved this power, after all they've spent hundreds of billions per year for decades influencing politicians, institutions, and corporations abroad. E.g. a well researched book on the topic, [1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/11/hidden-hand-review-chinas-true-global-ambitions-exposed https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/11/hidden-hand-re...
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    And Hollywood too, the soft power that the US had for many many decades now like Chinese money too much: https://www.cnet.com/features/marvel-is-censoring-films-for-china-and-you-probably-didnt-even-notice/ https://www.cnet.com/features/marvel-is-censoring-films-for-...
stormdennis 5y ago
The nationalists in Taiwan at one time claimed sovereignty over all of China, I believe. The USA would not tolerate a state wishing wishing to go independent and definitely would not allow outside interference promoting that. This is a China Taiwan issue. USA, or anyone else, should not be involving themselves.
- RattleyCooper 5y ago
  >The USA would not tolerate a state wishing wishing to go independent and definitely would not allow outside interference promoting that. Actually we do tolerate people talking about this stuff because we have the right to speak freely in the USA. USA is allies with Taiwan. If this is a China/Taiwan issue then it's a China/USA issue by definition. If China keeps being aggressive then the USA, and their allies, will be forced to respond to protect these innocent victims.
- bally0241 5y ago
  thanks wumao
  - dang 5y ago
    Breaking the site guidelines like this (you broke several of them badly!) will get you banned on HN. Would you mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here? We'd appreciate it.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- schleck8 5y ago
  5 points have been added to your childrens' social score.
- ncallaway 5y ago
  Taiwan isn’t a state wishing to be independent. It is a separate, already independent nation. A more accurate analogy would be like saying the US claiming sovereignty over Canada would be a US / Canada issue and the rest of the world should not be involved. That’s not how it works. I’m all for the people of Taiwan to determine their status for themselves, but I don’t think the people of China should get a vote on the matter.
enriquto 5y ago
Is there a way for westerners to register en masse as supporters of Taiwan independence to overwhelm the prc judiciary?
- capableweb 5y ago
  I don't think (and hope) so, as the western world has put it's nose in way too many pots already anyways. The further a country can stay away from western influences, the better. And besides, don't you have your own independence to worry about at home? ;)
  - poorjohnmacafee 5y ago
    Really dislike this whole "East" vs "West", but fwiw Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, India, etc. are often already lumped in with the "West", in terms of sharing "Western" values of democracy and human rights, and having achieved first world economies through "Western" capitalism. "West" doesn't even make sense when it's basically what all the first world countries are regardless of geography.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      Oh come on. India's prime minister has organized race riots that killed thousands. Japan has had the same party in power nationally for 50 years, and the selection of the leadership of the LDP is more important than any election. Literally no South Korean president has ever finished their tenure, they all resigned at some point or another in massive scandals. None of them share Western values of democracy and human rights. They're all barely democracies. Japan and SK are economically integrated with the West, that's all. If you mean first world country say first world country, that entire liberal values shtick is just ridiculous.
      - davidjytang 5y ago
        Was waiting for you to something about Taiwan.
      - 5y ago
dnautics 5y ago
I guess this means that every country sending athletes to the Olympics should issue guidance saying the safety of athletes who have ever expressed support for Taiwan independence cannot be guaranteed if they go to China.
- stewx 5y ago
  No one's safety is guaranteed in China, ever. They arbitrarily detain people. No one should be sending athletes there, if they value their safety or human rights.
  - simonsarris 5y ago
    For those that do not know, this is the official position of the US Department of State, which warns travelers of arbitrary enforcement and exit bans: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/china-travel-advisory.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/...
    - stjohnswarts 5y ago
      Cool, I was unaware it was a supported US government opinion. I mean it was obvious when they kidnapped those Canadians to hold captive as they negotiated for the Huawei executive, but still.
  - arcanon 5y ago
    They also use execution vans. They will come to you!
stephc_int13 5y ago
We've been seeing this situation sliding for years, people are talking about a new cold war, I think it might be worse than that. Many observers saw World War II coming for afar, it did not change much, and from my perspective, trying to avoid it only made the Nazi more powerful. (Daladier, Chamberlain, Munich)
ISL 5y ago
If supporting a people's right to democratic self-determination puts me on a list, sign me up. Wherever you are, I support your right to free and fair elections of your government. The fact that composing this post gave me pause underlines the necessity of making a clear statement. This move is an unforced aggression by China, one that may require a reciprocal response from the rest of the planet. The Librem 5's value proposition just got better, as has Samsung's.
- dbs 5y ago
  Support with your wallet. Stop buying made in China.
  - lsaferite 5y ago
    That's way easier said than done at this particular point in history.
    - argiopetech 5y ago
      Very little worth doing is ever easy.
    - jefurii 5y ago
      It may be difficult but it's worth the attempt.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  I also fully support Taiwan's right to remain a free and independent democracy. More power to them and may China's hegemonious fascism never touch their soil
- q1w2 5y ago
  You say that now, but one day your daughter will ask you to take her to the Great Wall of China and you'll have to have this weird conversation about how your internet comments 45 years ago kind of make that impossible.
jimmont 5y ago
in the history of the world, there seems to be a direct relationship between solidarity around a group's identity and threats related to that identity--at least that's been my impression and interpretation; as the PRC concentrates power at the top it becomes easier to destabilize and has strangely been extraordinarily successful at aligning the majority of the international community against them--regardless of any conflict--and appears to be comfortable continuing to do so; will be interesting to see how it all plays out over the next few years, including how long Xi and the leadership holds up, as well as whatever actual capabilities exist when things get real;
- ISL 5y ago
  The world was aligned against Germany in the late 1930s. Alignment alone was not sufficient to deter a blitzkrieg.
  - nradov 5y ago
    The USSR was a treaty ally of Germany in 1939. This actually caused the blitzkrieg.
bmeski 5y ago
Call it something with lots of L’s. “Lower Lava Land” or something like that. Try saying that PRC. You goons.
- ThrowawayR2 5y ago
  They probably wouldn't have a problem with the 'L's. Among Asian languages, AFAIK it's only Japanese that doesn't have a 'L'/'R' distinction. Mandarin Chinese does; for example, 老 (lao3) vs 繞 (rao3).
known 5y ago
A separatist is a freedom fighter who is not on your side https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Asia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_move...
etiam 5y ago
Makes me wonder whether they're brazen enough yet to include members of the European Parliament in the threat. We came here with a very simple and clear message: You are not alone. Europe is standing with you, by you, in the defense of freedom, rule of law -- Raphaël Glucksmann "Europe is standing with Taiwan in defending freedom: EP delegation" https://focustaiwan.tw/politics/202111040006 https://focustaiwan.tw/politics/202111040006
- MR4D 5y ago
  They've already banned British MPs and EU MPs [0][1]. [0] - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56532569 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56532569 [1] - https://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document.html?reference=EPRS_ATA(2021)690617 https://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document.html?re...
  - etiam 5y ago
    Thank you both for these. Somehow I had managed to miss it until now. Not that I'm surprised exactly, but the situation must then already be even worse than I had appreciated.
- petre 5y ago
  They are, in fact Raphaël Glucksmann is on that list. That's also probably why the EP sent him to Taiwan instead of David Maria Sassoli. https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/news/article/five-meps-blacklisted-by-china-as-beijing-retaliates-against-fresh-eu-sanctions https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/news/article/five-meps-...
danhoule 5y ago
But Taiwan is indeed should be a separate country from China right?
dewitters 5y ago
Why do they always talk about "China"? If the CCP was democratically elected, I'm willing to call it "China". But since it's a dictatorship, let's talk about "CCP says it will ...", because it really is the CCP and not the Chinese people as such, since a non-democracy cannot claim it represents the people of the nation.
- rzz3 5y ago
  Sure but it’s easier to just say China. Everybody knows we mean the awful government not the people. Chinese people are great, and most of the reason the CCP is so evil is because we’re empathetic to the horrible way they treat their citizens.
  - ctack 5y ago
    Seems like a catchy slogan: “The CCP is not China”.
eigengrau5150 5y ago
Assassinate Xi Jinping and every other CCP official who can't accept Taiwanese independence.
danielrpa 5y ago
This is a crime against humanity according to the Article 19 declaration of human rights. [1] https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_against_humanity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_against_humanity
hatterp 5y ago
Dear friends from democratic countries, convince your governments to recognize Taiwan.
- zzzqwerty 5y ago
  lol no
ksaj 5y ago
Does Taiwan pay taxes to China that its provinces pay? I haven't seen this discussed anywhere, but I'd assume if they don't, and China never went after them for it, then they've acknowledged that they are a distinct non-provincial entity. Anyone know?
- davidjytang 5y ago
  No we don't. Taiwan is at least a de-facto sovereignty.
helloworld11 5y ago
If anything, western interests should be pleased to some extent that the Nationalists never held all of China after the Second World War. Chiang's regime may have been deeply corrupt and authoritarian, not to mention inept in so many ways, but if it had won the Chinese Civil War after 1945 and ousted the communists by 1949 (instead of the other way around), The Unified Chinese state would have adapted market policies (within the framework of an authoritarian government) much more readily and quickly than the Maoists did. Instead of a China that finally got its shit together enough to be a global powerhouse only after decades of catastrophic extreme communist misrule by Mao and his immediate successors, we could have seen a China that pulled off an economic and political success story of power decades earlier. How that would have reflected in the world of today is an interesting speculation on global power politics, especially between the U.S and a China that had developed markets since the 60's instead of in the 1990's being applied to its immense and highly productive population.
FjolsvithAase 5y ago
This has to be awkward for people who sympathize with the Chinese government.

174 points by phantomathkg 5y ago

Considering that Taiwan is already independent and would need to be persuaded to join the PRC, these kinds of threats seem counterproductive to China's goals of "peaceful reunification".

capableweb 5y ago
> Considering that Taiwan is already independent From your perspective, maybe. But not from China's perspective. > these kinds of threats seem counterproductive to China's goals of "peaceful reunification" Imposing economic sanctions until the country has to oblige to China's request I'm sure is seen as "peaceful" from China's perspective. I think the only thing that is far away is outright war, but everything else would be considered "peaceful".
- athenot 5y ago
  The US has imposed similar "peaceful" economic sanctions on a few countries until they obliged to requests too. This move is hardly specific to Chinese diplomacy.
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    They still are with Venezuela and Cuba. Both are ridiculous and only hurting the people of the country. While we regularly cavort with countries like Saudi Arabia.
- papito 5y ago
  Typical HN relativism and intellectualization. In its current state, Taiwan is independent, and it will require either: a) Taiwanese consensus to officially rejoin China. b) An act of war. We can discuss China's perspective all day, but it does not change the status quo. What about the perspective of Russia? Australia? South Africa? Which one is true? Is anything true?
  - mytailorisrich 5y ago
    We need to interpret what is meant by "Taiwan independence" here. Taiwan is currently not part of the PRC (and never has been part of it, actually), but it is what's left of the Republic of China. There are roughly 3 point of views and aims: 1. The PRC claims that the Republic of China ceased to exist in 1949 and that Taiwan is part of the PRC. 2. The ROC still exists but is currently only surviving in Taiwan. In this sense Taiwan is an independent state but it is still China (just not the PRC) and still ultimate goal is still to re-unify. 3. Taiwan is an independent country, not part of 'China' and not aiming to re-unify at all. Usually, "supporting Taiwan independence" means #3. The current state of play is #2 at least formally (Taiwan is independent but not #3). The PRC government's policy is obviously #1 but they know that the reality is #2 and that's the 'status quo', but it is #3 that is the casus belli for them.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - stjohnswarts 5y ago
      I don't think anyone except a few hold outs in Taiwan see #2 as viable or practical. I'm a fan of 3.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rndgermandude 5y ago
>Considering that Taiwan is already independent Not according to the PRC, and a lot of countries and international institutions either. Some (usually with close ties to China, but now always, e.g. Spain[1], probably because they do not want to give their own separatist movements any political ammunition) consider the ROC part of the PRC, others are deliberately vague on whether they consider Taiwan independent or even a nation, like e.g. the US[0]. The WHO for example is very adept at avoiding any position on Taiwan[2]. And then of course, there is this guy... [3]. (Just if you like some cringe about a serious topic) >China's goals of "peaceful reunification". (PR) China doesn't really talk about peaceful reunification. They officially consider Taiwan part of the country already, a part that is just a little rebellious at the moment. They are more talking about a peaceful end of the conflict, but recently use the word "peaceful" a lot less. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_of_deliberate_ambiguity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_of_deliberate_ambiguity [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain%E2%80%93Taiwan_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain%E2%80%93Taiwan_relations [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlCYFh8U2xM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlCYFh8U2xM [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z88zeQ25pjQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z88zeQ25pjQ
- darkwater 5y ago
  Remove the "probably" for Spain, it's totally for that reason. They also have the same stance on the Republic of Kosovo with some "hilarious" moment when there was the footbal World Cup qualification match between Kosovo and Spain, with TV in Spain forces to use lower case for Kosovo, commentarists avoiding to say the K-word etc.
  - rndgermandude 5y ago
    It's not officially officially the government-provided reason, but everybody knows what's up, sure.
- flurben 5y ago
  I think you're conflating 'international recognition' with 'independence.' Taiwan is functionally independent, currently, no matter what China, or John Cena or the Government of Djibouti says. In fact there is no need for Taiwan to 'declare independence' because it has never been part of the PRC.
bsedlm 5y ago
> Considering that Taiwan is already independent and would need to be persuaded to join the PRC, these kinds of threats seem counterproductive to China's goals of "peaceful reunification". --flurben so flurben will now be criminally responsible for life (in China)?
- rndgermandude 5y ago
  Correct. If flurben ever wants to go to China incl Hong Kong and Macau, and the officials there google a bit, that might be a problem. Probably not jailed, but no visa either. It will also be a problem for companies who deal with Chinese companies. If e.g. Tim Cook started talking about the nation of Taiwan, he would probably get an email from somebody with a .gov.cn address reminding him "Nice Foxconn supplier you got there, would be a shame if something happened to your contracts... wanna revise your recent statements?" Well, that even was a problem before this announcement, but this announcement certainly will make it worse.
  - throwaway2474 5y ago
    > Nice Foxconn supplier you got there, would be a shame if something happened to your contracts More like “nice market you got there, would be a shame if a PR disaster turned the whole country against you”
    - rndgermandude 5y ago
      Huawei survived Trump, China is building a lot of international bridges e.g. with the Belt and Road initiative, the EU and US are defacto dependent on China because that's where they outsourced a lot of their product and supply chains. China never gave a fuck about what the populations in the West thought about them, because they know that even outraged Westerners will not stop buying products made in China. China had one "PR disaster" after another for years and years now, e.g. recent things like imprisoned Chinese dissidents getting the Nobel Peace price in absentia, anything happening in Hong Kong, and in the Chinese sea, and the "reeducation" camps for Uyghurs. They didn't budge after tiananmen square, they didn't budge after the Dalai Lama got popular, they didn't budge after any of the recent stuff. What makes you think they will budge in the future? They don't really need the West, but the West needs them (for the forseeable future). Their markets may take a hit if push comes to shove with the West, but that's fine with them. And they have a home market with 1.7 billion customers, and many other foreign markets in Asia, Africa or South America that will still deal with them.
refurb 5y ago
This is the golden rule of nations - no nation “owns” anything. It’s only what you can defend and get other nations to recognize. Remember there are pro-China factions in Taiwan. All China needs to do is invade, suppress dissent and elevate the views of those few who are happy with the outcome. And with that ‘A “rogue” state of China lead by “seditionists, Western mercenaries and reactionaries” will then have been “rightfully pacified and reunified” with China in accordance with the “will of the people”’. And just like that…an independent country ceases to exist.
redis_mlc 5y ago
> China's goals of "peaceful reunification". That was officially revoked recently: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-parliament-taiwan/china-drops-word-peaceful-in-latest-push-for-taiwan-reunification-idUSKBN22Y06S https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-parliament-taiwan/c...
stjohnswarts 5y ago
At this point I'm not sure what will happen when China eventually attacks Taiwan. It is a vital resource for the USA in terms of their sheer semiconductor industrial output. It doesn't really seem that the USA would get involved in such a fight though, or make more than a token effort. I think Taiwan missed their chance in the 80s to become a nuclear power when China was busy with other stuff, now it's too late and they are all but doomed to eventual takeover by China.
- davidjytang 5y ago
  US terminated Taiwan's nuclear program in 1988. They confiscated fuel rod, data, research paper, poured cement into the labs and dismantled the heavy water reactor that was worth around 2 billion USD.

qeternity 5y ago

> China'll That's an interesting grammatical contraction...

capableweb 5y ago
Reacted to that too, seems to be because of the length limit (80). "China will hold supporters of Taiwan independence criminally responsible for life" has 81 characters.
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  But this is 80 too: "China to hold supporters of Taiwan independence criminally responsible for life."
- salzig 5y ago
  maybe it's correct, "China II. will hold supporters of Taiwan...".
sdoering 5y ago
I am not a native speaker and stumbled over this massively. Had to read the headline thrice until I realized what bugged me.
- yosito 5y ago
  That's interesting to me. I guess contractions of "I'll", "he'll", "she'll" and "they'll" are probably pretty common, but with other things, not commonly written. As a native speaker, I wouldn't have even noticed. In spoken English, I think I'd say things like this 100% of the time. Recently, I've been learning Hungarian, which is an agglutinative language where meaning is added via endings on words. For example, "with" is the ending "-val", so "with yosito" becomes "yosito-val". I found it really hard to follow at first, since virtually every word in Hungarian is like this, and I see some similarities with contractions in English.
- heurisko 5y ago
  As a native speaker it made me faintly irritated, as the 'll informal contraction didn't fit the right tone for the title.

adolph 5y ago

Does it count if you support the PRC territory reunited under the auspices of the ROC? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Chinas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Chinas

irthomasthomas 5y ago
I often wonder why we don't use North China, and South China. I guess it boils down to influence.
- HideousKojima 5y ago
  Personally I prefer "Taiwan" and "West Taiwan" solely to annoy pro-CCP shills/50 cent army posters.
  - jjoonathan 5y ago
    My favorite way to poke the 50 cent army is to say I hope that Taiwan has nukes / the US should give Taiwan nukes. It cuts right to the core dissonance between the "Taiwan was always part of China" claims and the actual sovereignty situation on the ground.
    - stevespang 5y ago
      [dead]
    - adolph 5y ago
      Do they not already have one of those totally peaceful, totally civilian nuclear programs?
- kingkawn 5y ago
  Cause the terminology is not historically relevant to the region or the way people talk about those areas
  - adolph 5y ago

throwawaymanbot 5y ago

lol china! What does 4Lyfe(tm) mean to someone who would never visit China anyway? What would the world think?

bellyfullofbac 5y ago

A stupid throwaway said (I paraphrase) "why should it matter, I will never visit China", but imagine the near future where China is as powerful as the US (maybe during the 2nd Trump administration, I wish I can say I'm being sarcastic). Currently if you end up in the US sanctions list, no bank will ever talk to you, imagine if China starts having the same effect. Already corporations are bending to China's demands (Apple, NBA, Gap, and more: https://signal.supchina.com/all-the-international-brands-that-have-apologized-to-china/ https://signal.supchina.com/all-the-international-brands-tha... ).

duxup 5y ago
Even just employment. If your employer's ease of access to China is at risk versus your employment.... I doubt many companies side with individual.
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  Yeah.. so, "chilling effects". Soon you'll be censoring yourself: "Don't blab about that shit on Twitter, if the customer complains to the CEO and we lose the deal..."
poorjohnmacafee 5y ago
One could argue they've already achieved this power, after all they've spent hundreds of billions per year for decades influencing politicians, institutions, and corporations abroad. E.g. a well researched book on the topic, [1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/11/hidden-hand-review-chinas-true-global-ambitions-exposed https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/11/hidden-hand-re...
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  And Hollywood too, the soft power that the US had for many many decades now like Chinese money too much: https://www.cnet.com/features/marvel-is-censoring-films-for-china-and-you-probably-didnt-even-notice/ https://www.cnet.com/features/marvel-is-censoring-films-for-...

stormdennis 5y ago

The nationalists in Taiwan at one time claimed sovereignty over all of China, I believe. The USA would not tolerate a state wishing wishing to go independent and definitely would not allow outside interference promoting that. This is a China Taiwan issue. USA, or anyone else, should not be involving themselves.

RattleyCooper 5y ago
>The USA would not tolerate a state wishing wishing to go independent and definitely would not allow outside interference promoting that. Actually we do tolerate people talking about this stuff because we have the right to speak freely in the USA. USA is allies with Taiwan. If this is a China/Taiwan issue then it's a China/USA issue by definition. If China keeps being aggressive then the USA, and their allies, will be forced to respond to protect these innocent victims.
bally0241 5y ago
thanks wumao
- dang 5y ago
  Breaking the site guidelines like this (you broke several of them badly!) will get you banned on HN. Would you mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here? We'd appreciate it.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
schleck8 5y ago
5 points have been added to your childrens' social score.
ncallaway 5y ago
Taiwan isn’t a state wishing to be independent. It is a separate, already independent nation. A more accurate analogy would be like saying the US claiming sovereignty over Canada would be a US / Canada issue and the rest of the world should not be involved. That’s not how it works. I’m all for the people of Taiwan to determine their status for themselves, but I don’t think the people of China should get a vote on the matter.

enriquto 5y ago

Is there a way for westerners to register en masse as supporters of Taiwan independence to overwhelm the prc judiciary?

capableweb 5y ago
I don't think (and hope) so, as the western world has put it's nose in way too many pots already anyways. The further a country can stay away from western influences, the better. And besides, don't you have your own independence to worry about at home? ;)
- poorjohnmacafee 5y ago
  Really dislike this whole "East" vs "West", but fwiw Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, India, etc. are often already lumped in with the "West", in terms of sharing "Western" values of democracy and human rights, and having achieved first world economies through "Western" capitalism. "West" doesn't even make sense when it's basically what all the first world countries are regardless of geography.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Oh come on. India's prime minister has organized race riots that killed thousands. Japan has had the same party in power nationally for 50 years, and the selection of the leadership of the LDP is more important than any election. Literally no South Korean president has ever finished their tenure, they all resigned at some point or another in massive scandals. None of them share Western values of democracy and human rights. They're all barely democracies. Japan and SK are economically integrated with the West, that's all. If you mean first world country say first world country, that entire liberal values shtick is just ridiculous.
    - davidjytang 5y ago
      Was waiting for you to something about Taiwan.
    - 5y ago

dnautics 5y ago

I guess this means that every country sending athletes to the Olympics should issue guidance saying the safety of athletes who have ever expressed support for Taiwan independence cannot be guaranteed if they go to China.

stewx 5y ago
No one's safety is guaranteed in China, ever. They arbitrarily detain people. No one should be sending athletes there, if they value their safety or human rights.
- simonsarris 5y ago
  For those that do not know, this is the official position of the US Department of State, which warns travelers of arbitrary enforcement and exit bans: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/china-travel-advisory.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/...
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    Cool, I was unaware it was a supported US government opinion. I mean it was obvious when they kidnapped those Canadians to hold captive as they negotiated for the Huawei executive, but still.
- arcanon 5y ago
  They also use execution vans. They will come to you!

stephc_int13 5y ago

We've been seeing this situation sliding for years, people are talking about a new cold war, I think it might be worse than that. Many observers saw World War II coming for afar, it did not change much, and from my perspective, trying to avoid it only made the Nazi more powerful. (Daladier, Chamberlain, Munich)

ISL 5y ago

If supporting a people's right to democratic self-determination puts me on a list, sign me up. Wherever you are, I support your right to free and fair elections of your government. The fact that composing this post gave me pause underlines the necessity of making a clear statement. This move is an unforced aggression by China, one that may require a reciprocal response from the rest of the planet. The Librem 5's value proposition just got better, as has Samsung's.

dbs 5y ago
Support with your wallet. Stop buying made in China.
- lsaferite 5y ago
  That's way easier said than done at this particular point in history.
  - argiopetech 5y ago
    Very little worth doing is ever easy.
  - jefurii 5y ago
    It may be difficult but it's worth the attempt.
stjohnswarts 5y ago
I also fully support Taiwan's right to remain a free and independent democracy. More power to them and may China's hegemonious fascism never touch their soil
q1w2 5y ago
You say that now, but one day your daughter will ask you to take her to the Great Wall of China and you'll have to have this weird conversation about how your internet comments 45 years ago kind of make that impossible.

jimmont 5y ago

in the history of the world, there seems to be a direct relationship between solidarity around a group's identity and threats related to that identity--at least that's been my impression and interpretation; as the PRC concentrates power at the top it becomes easier to destabilize and has strangely been extraordinarily successful at aligning the majority of the international community against them--regardless of any conflict--and appears to be comfortable continuing to do so; will be interesting to see how it all plays out over the next few years, including how long Xi and the leadership holds up, as well as whatever actual capabilities exist when things get real;

ISL 5y ago
The world was aligned against Germany in the late 1930s. Alignment alone was not sufficient to deter a blitzkrieg.
- nradov 5y ago
  The USSR was a treaty ally of Germany in 1939. This actually caused the blitzkrieg.

bmeski 5y ago

Call it something with lots of L’s. “Lower Lava Land” or something like that. Try saying that PRC. You goons.

ThrowawayR2 5y ago
They probably wouldn't have a problem with the 'L's. Among Asian languages, AFAIK it's only Japanese that doesn't have a 'L'/'R' distinction. Mandarin Chinese does; for example, 老 (lao3) vs 繞 (rao3).

known 5y ago

A separatist is a freedom fighter who is not on your side https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Asia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_move...

etiam 5y ago

Makes me wonder whether they're brazen enough yet to include members of the European Parliament in the threat. We came here with a very simple and clear message: You are not alone. Europe is standing with you, by you, in the defense of freedom, rule of law -- Raphaël Glucksmann "Europe is standing with Taiwan in defending freedom: EP delegation" https://focustaiwan.tw/politics/202111040006 https://focustaiwan.tw/politics/202111040006

MR4D 5y ago
They've already banned British MPs and EU MPs [0][1]. [0] - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56532569 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56532569 [1] - https://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document.html?reference=EPRS_ATA(2021)690617 https://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document.html?re...
- etiam 5y ago
  Thank you both for these. Somehow I had managed to miss it until now. Not that I'm surprised exactly, but the situation must then already be even worse than I had appreciated.
petre 5y ago
They are, in fact Raphaël Glucksmann is on that list. That's also probably why the EP sent him to Taiwan instead of David Maria Sassoli. https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/news/article/five-meps-blacklisted-by-china-as-beijing-retaliates-against-fresh-eu-sanctions https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/news/article/five-meps-...

danhoule 5y ago

But Taiwan is indeed should be a separate country from China right?

dewitters 5y ago

Why do they always talk about "China"? If the CCP was democratically elected, I'm willing to call it "China". But since it's a dictatorship, let's talk about "CCP says it will ...", because it really is the CCP and not the Chinese people as such, since a non-democracy cannot claim it represents the people of the nation.

rzz3 5y ago
Sure but it’s easier to just say China. Everybody knows we mean the awful government not the people. Chinese people are great, and most of the reason the CCP is so evil is because we’re empathetic to the horrible way they treat their citizens.
- ctack 5y ago
  Seems like a catchy slogan: “The CCP is not China”.

eigengrau5150 5y ago

Assassinate Xi Jinping and every other CCP official who can't accept Taiwanese independence.

danielrpa 5y ago

This is a crime against humanity according to the Article 19 declaration of human rights. [1] https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_against_humanity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_against_humanity

hatterp 5y ago

Dear friends from democratic countries, convince your governments to recognize Taiwan.

zzzqwerty 5y ago
lol no

ksaj 5y ago

Does Taiwan pay taxes to China that its provinces pay? I haven't seen this discussed anywhere, but I'd assume if they don't, and China never went after them for it, then they've acknowledged that they are a distinct non-provincial entity. Anyone know?

davidjytang 5y ago
No we don't. Taiwan is at least a de-facto sovereignty.

helloworld11 5y ago

If anything, western interests should be pleased to some extent that the Nationalists never held all of China after the Second World War. Chiang's regime may have been deeply corrupt and authoritarian, not to mention inept in so many ways, but if it had won the Chinese Civil War after 1945 and ousted the communists by 1949 (instead of the other way around), The Unified Chinese state would have adapted market policies (within the framework of an authoritarian government) much more readily and quickly than the Maoists did. Instead of a China that finally got its shit together enough to be a global powerhouse only after decades of catastrophic extreme communist misrule by Mao and his immediate successors, we could have seen a China that pulled off an economic and political success story of power decades earlier. How that would have reflected in the world of today is an interesting speculation on global power politics, especially between the U.S and a China that had developed markets since the 60's instead of in the 1990's being applied to its immense and highly productive population.

FjolsvithAase 5y ago

This has to be awkward for people who sympathize with the Chinese government.