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Meanwhile we keep promoting the top generals and politicians who back disastrous wars. Failing upwards only applies to the top tier.

namdnay 5y ago
I’m really not sure the military did much pushing for Iraq or Afghanistan. It was the ideologues in the CIA, the Government and the media who pushed and lied till they got what they wanted
amcoastal 5y ago
I'd be interested to see a more thorough report. This seamount wasn't mapped, we might be firing people for no good reason to save face. Or maybe the officers were drinking whiskey and playing quarters. It's sad I don't have enough confidence in the military justice system to assume it's a situation like the latter instead of the former.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- blitzar 5y ago
  > we might be firing people for no good reason to save face ... It's sad I don't have enough confidence in the military justice system What made you lose faith in the military justice system? Given that they tend to err on the side of allowing war crimes, I would have thought they were overly lenient, and predisposed to a coverup than swift to hand down punishments.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  It isn't too easy to actually "see" a mountain without active sonar that you don't use while on patrol in a submarine. They also don't have windows... I believe there are some modern sensors that could have helped, but it is questionable that they were installed. This sound far more like saving face and maybe even incompetence by higher officer ranks.
  - bilbo0s 5y ago
    This sound far more like saving face and maybe even incompetence by higher officer ranks Given this happened in the 7th, my money is on incompetence.
rob74 5y ago
Never mind the whataboutism, but running against a stationary obstacle (a seamount) in a submarine is nothing that should happen to an experienced crew, and "sinking" a submarine can have disastrous consequences (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursk_submarine_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursk_submarine_disaster), so I think these measures are entirely justified...
- ethbr0 5y ago
  > running against a stationary obstacle (a seamount) in a submarine is nothing that should happen to an experienced crew Why not?
  - anotherhue 5y ago
    Maps
    - jeffwass 5y ago
      From the CNN article : When it comes to knowing the terrain beneath them, even astronauts might have it easier than submariners, according to Shugart. "Basically, the surface of the moon is better charted than the bottom of the ocean is," he said.
    - pas 5y ago
      The seafloor is not mapped 100% to a sufficient resolution. Underwater navigation is not that simple (no GPS). Plus even if this big underwater mountain were on a map, maps are not perfect.
  - danbruc 5y ago
    [...] sound judgement, prudent decision-making and adherence to required procedures in navigation planning, watch team execution and risk management could have prevented the incident [...]
    - ethbr0 5y ago
      That doesn't fill me with confidence that it's definitively the boat's fault. How many companies have you known who threw engineers under the bus when {insert same quote}? While at the same time the de facto daily operation procedures throughout the entire company were to constantly ignore or skip those same safeguards? I'm not saying it's not the crew's fault, but I am saying that a statement like that doesn't prove it's reasonably the crew's fault. Ultimately though, it's leadership's decision who to place in command or particular roles, so it's their right to reassign or remove commands at whim.
2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
> we keep promoting the top generals Which ones?

namdnay 5y ago

I’m really not sure the military did much pushing for Iraq or Afghanistan. It was the ideologues in the CIA, the Government and the media who pushed and lied till they got what they wanted

amcoastal 5y ago

I'd be interested to see a more thorough report. This seamount wasn't mapped, we might be firing people for no good reason to save face. Or maybe the officers were drinking whiskey and playing quarters. It's sad I don't have enough confidence in the military justice system to assume it's a situation like the latter instead of the former.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
blitzar 5y ago
> we might be firing people for no good reason to save face ... It's sad I don't have enough confidence in the military justice system What made you lose faith in the military justice system? Given that they tend to err on the side of allowing war crimes, I would have thought they were overly lenient, and predisposed to a coverup than swift to hand down punishments.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
raxxorrax 5y ago
It isn't too easy to actually "see" a mountain without active sonar that you don't use while on patrol in a submarine. They also don't have windows... I believe there are some modern sensors that could have helped, but it is questionable that they were installed. This sound far more like saving face and maybe even incompetence by higher officer ranks.
- bilbo0s 5y ago
  This sound far more like saving face and maybe even incompetence by higher officer ranks Given this happened in the 7th, my money is on incompetence.

rob74 5y ago

Never mind the whataboutism, but running against a stationary obstacle (a seamount) in a submarine is nothing that should happen to an experienced crew, and "sinking" a submarine can have disastrous consequences (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursk_submarine_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursk_submarine_disaster), so I think these measures are entirely justified...

ethbr0 5y ago
> running against a stationary obstacle (a seamount) in a submarine is nothing that should happen to an experienced crew Why not?
- anotherhue 5y ago
  Maps
  - jeffwass 5y ago
    From the CNN article : When it comes to knowing the terrain beneath them, even astronauts might have it easier than submariners, according to Shugart. "Basically, the surface of the moon is better charted than the bottom of the ocean is," he said.
  - pas 5y ago
    The seafloor is not mapped 100% to a sufficient resolution. Underwater navigation is not that simple (no GPS). Plus even if this big underwater mountain were on a map, maps are not perfect.
- danbruc 5y ago
  [...] sound judgement, prudent decision-making and adherence to required procedures in navigation planning, watch team execution and risk management could have prevented the incident [...]
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    That doesn't fill me with confidence that it's definitively the boat's fault. How many companies have you known who threw engineers under the bus when {insert same quote}? While at the same time the de facto daily operation procedures throughout the entire company were to constantly ignore or skip those same safeguards? I'm not saying it's not the crew's fault, but I am saying that a statement like that doesn't prove it's reasonably the crew's fault. Ultimately though, it's leadership's decision who to place in command or particular roles, so it's their right to reassign or remove commands at whim.

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago

> we keep promoting the top generals Which ones?