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Israel is a wonderful country. Scientifically advanced, progressively minded, a bastion of secularism, LGBT rights, and western ideals. The world is, sadly, obs

by voz_ 5y ago

Israel is a wonderful country. Scientifically advanced, progressively minded, a bastion of secularism, LGBT rights, and western ideals. The world is, sadly, obsessed with them. I'd love a real explanation why they get so much undue attention given how they behave towards their enemies. Israel drops leaflets before bombing so civilians can clear out. When Hamas stores weapons in schools and Hospitals, Israel exercises extreme caution to minimize casualties. Israel is the only country in the world with the self restraint to not destroy a neighbor that constantly fires rockets at them. Next time you criticize Israel, think about how it would feel to have rockets raining down on your children, your loved ones, co workers, friends for no reason other than the fact that you exist.

totetsu 5y ago
You know I've never once had to drop leaflets before bombing anyone..
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  How often have you bombed anyone?
mysecretaccount 5y ago
If you genuinely want to understand criticism of Israel, the Wikipedia article for Israel is a good starting place. I am not being flip or sarcastic – you are repeating a lot of nationalist propaganda and may benefit from a different perspective.
- JanSt 5y ago
  Can you give some more specifics?
  - mysecretaccount 5y ago
    I recommend checking out the disparity in terms of casualties and general suffering this year alone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_...) and working backward. This talk (https://youtu.be/MON2HL02mec https://youtu.be/MON2HL02mec) of Norman Finkelstein is also a solid introduction.
    - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
      Israel has the better military. That doesn't automatically make them evil. Their enemies (Hamas) have sworn to eliminate them. What would you do if you were Israel?
    - JanSt 5y ago
      Please be more specific. A disparity in casualties is to be expected in this kind of conflict. It also says nothing about who started what, who wants to erase whom etc. Regarding Finkelstein (who has been endorsed by David Duke and others): Bronzik, Benz, Seligmann and many more have shown many flaws in his book. It's easy to throw some articles around and put appeals to authority ("Finkelstein is also a solid introduction") in a comment. No conflict it as clear as people on any side make it sound.
      - mysecretaccount 5y ago
        Ah, another tedious, bad faith request for more detailed information, complete with ad hominem "Finkelstein was endorsed by a white supremacist"! How many of these HN accounts are you posting from this evening?
        colinb 5y ago
        This is not a good-faith argument. If you cannot address disagreement without asserting that your interlocutors are glove-puppet, how are we to progress? If you're going to argue from authority, then you have to be prepared to have the authority questioned. This isn't the USSR. We're allowed to say that your holy texts are nonsense.
        mysecretaccount 5y ago
        It absolutely is good-faith, as I genuinely believe there are puppet accounts used on this page. Another user mentioned it. What is not good-faith are persistent "requests for more information" from apartheid apologists (the number of actual people these users represent is in question) that have no interest in the "specifics" or "elaboration" they are asking for.
- voz_ 5y ago
  I lived there for a bit. During that time, I volunteered at a refugee camp for Palestinians. My sentiment was shared by a good number of them. The unified thread there is a hate for Hamas. I know you didn't know that, but with that in mind, I do not think the wikipedia article will change my mind much.
  - mysecretaccount 5y ago
    > I do not think the wikipedia article will change my mind much. We agree on this point, but perhaps it will encourage good-faith research for someone reading this thread that has not bought into apartheid propaganda.
    - voz_ 5y ago
      Thanks for accusing me of that. In what way is at an apartheid? There is no systematic discrimination based on race in Israel. I cannot say the same for other countries, esp when it comes to Jews.
      - mysecretaccount 5y ago
        Hey, neither of us is going to change the other's view here, so it is not useful to go back and forth like this. If you wanted an answer to that question you could look it up, like I have looked up the arguments and counter arguments to the apartheid question. What is interesting is that the tide is turning and your view is becoming less common, especially among the youth in developed nations, particularly Ireland. This is good news, for the well-being of Israelis and Palestinians alike.
        voz_ 5y ago
        I am sad you are not open to being swayed, what is the value of coming to a discussion with no intent to change your own mind? How can you visit to offer opinions, with the intent to change others minds, but not be open to having your own changed? Perhaps this topic is near and dear to you, so it is difficult. I do recommend re-evaluating how you think about common discussion spaces like these, and the nature of disagreements in general. Perhaps, as a start, let's find some common ground: I firmly believe that both Israelis and Palestinians deserve peace, prosperity, and full rights.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
b112 5y ago
But unlike every other nation on Earth, they took over land belonging to others! In case people don't notice, that's extreme sarcasm. Every nation on Earth has taken over others, just look at the native peoples of every country in North and South America, of Nordic Countries, Australia. Look at how Europe's borders were re-written 1000 times. Africa. The Middle East. If the beef is (and it seems to be for some) that they "took land", get over it. Because where you live "took land" too.
- voz_ 5y ago
  I'd like to point out that the current generation of both the palestinians and the jews did not take or give land. The people who did are pretty much gone. At this point, there's not much to be done - both sides were both there. A more interesting discussion, I think, is why does Hamas consistently reject the Israeli peace offering and two state solution?
  - mysecretaccount 5y ago
    > I'd like to point out that the current generation of both the palestinians and the jews did not take or give land. This is simply not correct. Israel's borders have continued to expand in the 21st century.
    - colinb 5y ago
      In this we agree. The Occupied Territories are IMO a travesty.
- catlikesshrimp 5y ago
  A problem is Israel is still expanding. Even the US discourages their building of new settlements in the west bank. I fear that if left alone they will kill all Palestinians who opose.
- clavicat 5y ago
  And yet, if another country invaded your country and tried to take your land, you’d think it an injustice, no? Or would you be telling yourself that it’s no big deal, after all, our ancestors took this land from some forgotten people as well?
DeWilde 5y ago
That is all true, of all the countries in the ME Israel is probably one of the few that I would live in. However, most of the criticism, at least the one that isn't "kill the Jews" type, comes from Israel's occupation of the West Bank and the apartheid-like conditions that are there. There you can't talk about Hamas and the rockets killing children because there are none as Israel is in full control of the area.
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  I oppose the settlements completely but the military hold on the West Bank isn't evil or irrational. We need to be honest - the chances of the PLO to survive without being overrun by Hamas are very slim without Israeli presence and assistance. Having another Hamas state in the West Bank is a very very bad development that Israel wants to avoid. And yes, the settlers are taking advantage of this dynamic to keep trying to realize their crazy dream - a dream most Israelis have zero empathy for.
hyproxia 5y ago
I assumed you're serious at first. Poe's law strikes again
chuckee 5y ago
> progressively minded, a bastion of secularism, LGBT rights, and western ideals. Which other ethno-nationalist states do you laud this way? It is unrealistic and unacceptable to expect the State of Israel to voluntarily subvert its own sovereign existence and nationalist identity and become a vulnerable minority within what was once its own territory. - https://web.archive.org/web/20210519103412/https://www.adl.org/education/resources/fact-sheets/response-to-common-inaccuracy-bi-national-one-state-solution https://web.archive.org/web/20210519103412/https://www.adl.o... Eritrean migrants resettled from Israel to Sweden [..] The resettlement - which Israeli NGOs said included 54 Eritrean women – was part of the “ongoing process of willful deportation to Sweden,” - https://www.jpost.com/National-News/Eritrean-migrants-resettled-from-Israel-to-Sweden-337414 https://www.jpost.com/National-News/Eritrean-migrants-resett...
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  Afaik lots on non Jewish people live in Israel, including Palestinians. No Jews live in Palestine. So in what sense is Israel the "ethno-nationalist" state? Your article about theEritreans moving to Sweden states "the Israeli government was not part of the initiative".
  - azth 5y ago
    > No Jews live in Palestine. Israel is literally occupied Palestine.
- keewee7 5y ago
  >Which other ethno-nationalist states do you laud this way? Denmark and Australia? Denmark is sending Syrian and Afghan migrants to Rwanda in Africa. Australia is sending their South Asian and Middle Eastern migrants to remote pacific islands.
praptak 5y ago
"Ten Myths About Israel" by Ilan Pappé has a pretty matter-of-fact explanation of the criticism.
excuseme 5y ago
Have you ever asked yourself how Israel started to exist in the first place? Do you know how many Palestinians were killed and how many others become refugees until this day (since 1948) living in refugee camps in the West bank, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria? Rockets? Do you know that the Palestinians have been fighting since 1948 and for decades their only weapon was rocks? yes rocks. Did you ask yourself, why are the Palestinians fighting in the first place? have you ever visited the west bank? Palestinians are not all Hamas, and even Hamas have a just cause. Human rights? have you ever seen how Israel treat Palestinian human rights? *Update*: oh wait, you're being sarcastic right? because that's the only way your comment will make sense
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  Would Hamas win in a fair election?
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  Not that many Palestinian were killed in the forming of Israel, at least compared to many other civil wars we can compare to. The Yeshuv lost 1% of it's population during the war btw so it wasn't one sided at all. Many Palestinians simply fled so the potential for violence wasn't that high.
clavicat 5y ago
Notice how your defenses of Israel are identical to the colonial regimes of old. We’re progressive and secular and advanced and humane, not like those terrorist savages who attack us for no reason. The rhetoric is indistinguishable from that of the French justifying their hold on Algeria, or the Japanese over Korea, or the white settler regimes of Africa, or China over the Uighers. If you need it spelt out for you, it’s very simple: Israel is a settler-colonial project in a world where settler-colonialism is seen as immoral and illegal. You’re not supposed to subjugate and dispossess other peoples, even if you bring them the benefits of an advanced civilization.
- smitty1e 5y ago
  But...the Israelis have deep roots in the Levant, as evidenced by a certain book of note. The 'colonial' argument rings hollow.
  - clavicat 5y ago
    That is like saying that the Greeks would be justified in invading Turkey and annexing Istanbul and all of Eastern Anatolia because they had an ancient presence there and that their domination over the subjugated Turks wouldn’t constitute colonialism. Attempts at ethnic revanchism based on where humans once lived thousands of years ago is weird, creepy shit. It’s creepy when Hitler did it, and it’s creepy when you do it.
    - Protostome 5y ago
      Jews didn't invade Israel, that's the only difference. Israel accepted the 1947 partition of the land, while the arabs rejected it. That led to a war, in which the arabs lost. They went all in and lost. One can only imagine what would have happened to the jews in Israel if they would have won.
      - foota 5y ago
        Why should they have accepted it? It was their territory, was it not?
tomjen3 5y ago
Israel dropped a bomb on a blind guy in a wheelchair on purpose and killed bystanders doing so. Israel doesn’t care about civilian deaths. They care about optics. That hamas is worse isn’t really relevant for the Palestinian civilians.
azth 5y ago
The way you praise them is so condescending. "western ideals", yes they're so superior they have "western ideals", ideals that trump all other ideals, the best ideals in the world.
kcplate 5y ago
> I'd love a real explanation why they get so much undue attention given how they behave towards their enemies. The Jewish people are a convenient folk devil and frankly have been for a millennia. Historically they have always been a small relatively closed population with influences that tended to exceed their population size. That makes a good target to deflect hate to when folk in power need to distract their populace away from themselves. Personally I think Israel’s restraint is remarkable.

by voz_ 5y ago

totetsu 5y ago

You know I've never once had to drop leaflets before bombing anyone..

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
How often have you bombed anyone?

mysecretaccount 5y ago

If you genuinely want to understand criticism of Israel, the Wikipedia article for Israel is a good starting place. I am not being flip or sarcastic – you are repeating a lot of nationalist propaganda and may benefit from a different perspective.

JanSt 5y ago
Can you give some more specifics?
- mysecretaccount 5y ago
  I recommend checking out the disparity in terms of casualties and general suffering this year alone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_...) and working backward. This talk (https://youtu.be/MON2HL02mec https://youtu.be/MON2HL02mec) of Norman Finkelstein is also a solid introduction.
  - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
    Israel has the better military. That doesn't automatically make them evil. Their enemies (Hamas) have sworn to eliminate them. What would you do if you were Israel?
  - JanSt 5y ago
    Please be more specific. A disparity in casualties is to be expected in this kind of conflict. It also says nothing about who started what, who wants to erase whom etc. Regarding Finkelstein (who has been endorsed by David Duke and others): Bronzik, Benz, Seligmann and many more have shown many flaws in his book. It's easy to throw some articles around and put appeals to authority ("Finkelstein is also a solid introduction") in a comment. No conflict it as clear as people on any side make it sound.
    - mysecretaccount 5y ago
      Ah, another tedious, bad faith request for more detailed information, complete with ad hominem "Finkelstein was endorsed by a white supremacist"! How many of these HN accounts are you posting from this evening?
      - colinb 5y ago
        This is not a good-faith argument. If you cannot address disagreement without asserting that your interlocutors are glove-puppet, how are we to progress? If you're going to argue from authority, then you have to be prepared to have the authority questioned. This isn't the USSR. We're allowed to say that your holy texts are nonsense.
        mysecretaccount 5y ago
        It absolutely is good-faith, as I genuinely believe there are puppet accounts used on this page. Another user mentioned it. What is not good-faith are persistent "requests for more information" from apartheid apologists (the number of actual people these users represent is in question) that have no interest in the "specifics" or "elaboration" they are asking for.
voz_ 5y ago
I lived there for a bit. During that time, I volunteered at a refugee camp for Palestinians. My sentiment was shared by a good number of them. The unified thread there is a hate for Hamas. I know you didn't know that, but with that in mind, I do not think the wikipedia article will change my mind much.
- mysecretaccount 5y ago
  > I do not think the wikipedia article will change my mind much. We agree on this point, but perhaps it will encourage good-faith research for someone reading this thread that has not bought into apartheid propaganda.
  - voz_ 5y ago
    Thanks for accusing me of that. In what way is at an apartheid? There is no systematic discrimination based on race in Israel. I cannot say the same for other countries, esp when it comes to Jews.
    - mysecretaccount 5y ago
      Hey, neither of us is going to change the other's view here, so it is not useful to go back and forth like this. If you wanted an answer to that question you could look it up, like I have looked up the arguments and counter arguments to the apartheid question. What is interesting is that the tide is turning and your view is becoming less common, especially among the youth in developed nations, particularly Ireland. This is good news, for the well-being of Israelis and Palestinians alike.
      - voz_ 5y ago
        I am sad you are not open to being swayed, what is the value of coming to a discussion with no intent to change your own mind? How can you visit to offer opinions, with the intent to change others minds, but not be open to having your own changed? Perhaps this topic is near and dear to you, so it is difficult. I do recommend re-evaluating how you think about common discussion spaces like these, and the nature of disagreements in general. Perhaps, as a start, let's find some common ground: I firmly believe that both Israelis and Palestinians deserve peace, prosperity, and full rights.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

b112 5y ago

But unlike every other nation on Earth, they took over land belonging to others! In case people don't notice, that's extreme sarcasm. Every nation on Earth has taken over others, just look at the native peoples of every country in North and South America, of Nordic Countries, Australia. Look at how Europe's borders were re-written 1000 times. Africa. The Middle East. If the beef is (and it seems to be for some) that they "took land", get over it. Because where you live "took land" too.

voz_ 5y ago
I'd like to point out that the current generation of both the palestinians and the jews did not take or give land. The people who did are pretty much gone. At this point, there's not much to be done - both sides were both there. A more interesting discussion, I think, is why does Hamas consistently reject the Israeli peace offering and two state solution?
- mysecretaccount 5y ago
  > I'd like to point out that the current generation of both the palestinians and the jews did not take or give land. This is simply not correct. Israel's borders have continued to expand in the 21st century.
  - colinb 5y ago
    In this we agree. The Occupied Territories are IMO a travesty.
catlikesshrimp 5y ago
A problem is Israel is still expanding. Even the US discourages their building of new settlements in the west bank. I fear that if left alone they will kill all Palestinians who opose.
clavicat 5y ago
And yet, if another country invaded your country and tried to take your land, you’d think it an injustice, no? Or would you be telling yourself that it’s no big deal, after all, our ancestors took this land from some forgotten people as well?

DeWilde 5y ago

That is all true, of all the countries in the ME Israel is probably one of the few that I would live in. However, most of the criticism, at least the one that isn't "kill the Jews" type, comes from Israel's occupation of the West Bank and the apartheid-like conditions that are there. There you can't talk about Hamas and the rockets killing children because there are none as Israel is in full control of the area.

joelbluminator 5y ago
I oppose the settlements completely but the military hold on the West Bank isn't evil or irrational. We need to be honest - the chances of the PLO to survive without being overrun by Hamas are very slim without Israeli presence and assistance. Having another Hamas state in the West Bank is a very very bad development that Israel wants to avoid. And yes, the settlers are taking advantage of this dynamic to keep trying to realize their crazy dream - a dream most Israelis have zero empathy for.

hyproxia 5y ago

I assumed you're serious at first. Poe's law strikes again

chuckee 5y ago

> progressively minded, a bastion of secularism, LGBT rights, and western ideals. Which other ethno-nationalist states do you laud this way? It is unrealistic and unacceptable to expect the State of Israel to voluntarily subvert its own sovereign existence and nationalist identity and become a vulnerable minority within what was once its own territory. - https://web.archive.org/web/20210519103412/https://www.adl.org/education/resources/fact-sheets/response-to-common-inaccuracy-bi-national-one-state-solution https://web.archive.org/web/20210519103412/https://www.adl.o... Eritrean migrants resettled from Israel to Sweden [..] The resettlement - which Israeli NGOs said included 54 Eritrean women – was part of the “ongoing process of willful deportation to Sweden,” - https://www.jpost.com/National-News/Eritrean-migrants-resettled-from-Israel-to-Sweden-337414 https://www.jpost.com/National-News/Eritrean-migrants-resett...

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
Afaik lots on non Jewish people live in Israel, including Palestinians. No Jews live in Palestine. So in what sense is Israel the "ethno-nationalist" state? Your article about theEritreans moving to Sweden states "the Israeli government was not part of the initiative".
- azth 5y ago
  > No Jews live in Palestine. Israel is literally occupied Palestine.
keewee7 5y ago
>Which other ethno-nationalist states do you laud this way? Denmark and Australia? Denmark is sending Syrian and Afghan migrants to Rwanda in Africa. Australia is sending their South Asian and Middle Eastern migrants to remote pacific islands.

praptak 5y ago

"Ten Myths About Israel" by Ilan Pappé has a pretty matter-of-fact explanation of the criticism.

excuseme 5y ago

Have you ever asked yourself how Israel started to exist in the first place? Do you know how many Palestinians were killed and how many others become refugees until this day (since 1948) living in refugee camps in the West bank, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria? Rockets? Do you know that the Palestinians have been fighting since 1948 and for decades their only weapon was rocks? yes rocks. Did you ask yourself, why are the Palestinians fighting in the first place? have you ever visited the west bank? Palestinians are not all Hamas, and even Hamas have a just cause. Human rights? have you ever seen how Israel treat Palestinian human rights? *Update*: oh wait, you're being sarcastic right? because that's the only way your comment will make sense

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
Would Hamas win in a fair election?
joelbluminator 5y ago
Not that many Palestinian were killed in the forming of Israel, at least compared to many other civil wars we can compare to. The Yeshuv lost 1% of it's population during the war btw so it wasn't one sided at all. Many Palestinians simply fled so the potential for violence wasn't that high.

clavicat 5y ago

Notice how your defenses of Israel are identical to the colonial regimes of old. We’re progressive and secular and advanced and humane, not like those terrorist savages who attack us for no reason. The rhetoric is indistinguishable from that of the French justifying their hold on Algeria, or the Japanese over Korea, or the white settler regimes of Africa, or China over the Uighers. If you need it spelt out for you, it’s very simple: Israel is a settler-colonial project in a world where settler-colonialism is seen as immoral and illegal. You’re not supposed to subjugate and dispossess other peoples, even if you bring them the benefits of an advanced civilization.

smitty1e 5y ago
But...the Israelis have deep roots in the Levant, as evidenced by a certain book of note. The 'colonial' argument rings hollow.
- clavicat 5y ago
  That is like saying that the Greeks would be justified in invading Turkey and annexing Istanbul and all of Eastern Anatolia because they had an ancient presence there and that their domination over the subjugated Turks wouldn’t constitute colonialism. Attempts at ethnic revanchism based on where humans once lived thousands of years ago is weird, creepy shit. It’s creepy when Hitler did it, and it’s creepy when you do it.
  - Protostome 5y ago
    Jews didn't invade Israel, that's the only difference. Israel accepted the 1947 partition of the land, while the arabs rejected it. That led to a war, in which the arabs lost. They went all in and lost. One can only imagine what would have happened to the jews in Israel if they would have won.
    - foota 5y ago
      Why should they have accepted it? It was their territory, was it not?

tomjen3 5y ago

Israel dropped a bomb on a blind guy in a wheelchair on purpose and killed bystanders doing so. Israel doesn’t care about civilian deaths. They care about optics. That hamas is worse isn’t really relevant for the Palestinian civilians.

azth 5y ago

The way you praise them is so condescending. "western ideals", yes they're so superior they have "western ideals", ideals that trump all other ideals, the best ideals in the world.

kcplate 5y ago

> I'd love a real explanation why they get so much undue attention given how they behave towards their enemies. The Jewish people are a convenient folk devil and frankly have been for a millennia. Historically they have always been a small relatively closed population with influences that tended to exceed their population size. That makes a good target to deflect hate to when folk in power need to distract their populace away from themselves. Personally I think Israel’s restraint is remarkable.