6 ms·

Is the U.S. Less Corrupt Than China?

joelbondurant 5y ago
Washington DC is the terrorist enemy.
arcanus 5y ago
The key quote for me was, "So if we compare it to the standard index, the similarity that we see is that the United States, overall, total corruption is much lower than in China, and that’s totally expected. But what the U.C.I. is able to add is that it unbundles this total score into four categories, and by doing so, we can see more nuance and we can see that first of all, in both countries, the United States is much lower on petty theft, grand theft and speed money than in China. But they have roughly the same amount of access money." "So in China, it might be a bribe; in the U.S., it might more likely be lobbying or influence-peddling of some sort"
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  The key fact that there is no freedom of speech or transparency in China makes me doubt the validity of any of this research.
  - carabiner 5y ago
    If you are an employee of a corporation you live under totalitarianism.
    - xxpor 5y ago
      Ah yeah if i call my boss a dumbass I fully expect to be dragged off to room 101. Or a mobile execution van, in China's case. Get a grip man.
      - phyrex 5y ago
        Yeah because that totally happens in China all the time..
        xxpor 5y ago
        https://www.scmp.com/topics/xi-jinpings-anti-corruption-campaign https://www.scmp.com/topics/xi-jinpings-anti-corruption-camp... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_van#People's_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_van#People's_Republi...
        phyrex 5y ago
        You imply that a political anti corruption campaign is equivalent to “calling your boss a dumbass”?
      - vadfa 5y ago
        Come out as a conservative (a real conservative, not a neocon or anything like that) in the tech scene and watch yourself starve.
        xxpor 5y ago
        How much is Peter Thiel worth again?
        finite_jest 5y ago
        You certainly don't mean that conservatives should be billionaires to have a right to free expression, do you?
        AtlasBarfed 5y ago
        What's a real conservative?
        rp1 5y ago
ralmidani 5y ago
Communist-dominated China might appear to be ‘less corrupt’ because it has an unapologetic and unrepentant totalitarian regime that makes no meaningful concessions on political issues, but it’s actually less subtle than corruption in the US. The US political system has many, many problems (e.g. winner-take-all two-party system in most places, no restrictions on the corrupting influence of money thanks to Citizens United, out-of-touch incumbents in many places, unwavering support for Zionism among the majority of politicians). But all of these can still, in theory, be changed via activism, lobbying, lawsuits, and constitutional amendments. Don’t like any aspect of China’s political/economic system? Well, too bad. I would advocate for a more nuanced understanding of corruption than that used in the OP - just because it’s a country’s ruler(s) who is/are taking an outsized chunk of the resources and refusing to share, that does not mean it is not corruption. And even more broadly, totalitarianism and ruler-worship like we see in China (and also North Korea, Iran, Syria, etc.) are also obscene and corrosive (and, I would argue, immoral). Economics, politics, and society are inevitably intertwined, and attempts to separate them often miss the point.
- carabiner 5y ago
  US could be really great in theory, like you say. China is good in practice. In the US, we value being able to insult leaders as part of "freedom of speech." In China, they accept a paternalistic guidance that ignores dissent for the sake of actual progress. In the US, we celebrate childish squabbling among our leaders, while China builds high speed rail and nuclear power. The CPC's progress has been extraordinary. They've done more to improve the lives of more people than any government in the past 30 years. Pretend you're an alien visiting the Earth in 2021. Can you honestly say that they'd find the US to have better governance? I see China as a modern tech company that bans political conversations in the workplace in order to get shit done. The US is some hippie-dippie Biosphere 2 "democratic" process that just leads to infighting and stagnation.
  - simmerup 5y ago
    If the US was like China you’d get a visit from the secret police for posting something so disparaging about your country. It’s actually embarrassing how ignorant you are of your privilege while glorifying a country that is persecuting millions

Washington DC is the terrorist enemy.

The key quote for me was, "So if we compare it to the standard index, the similarity that we see is that the United States, overall, total corruption is much lower than in China, and that’s totally expected. But what the U.C.I. is able to add is that it unbundles this total score into four categories, and by doing so, we can see more nuance and we can see that first of all, in both countries, the United States is much lower on petty theft, grand theft and speed money than in China. But they have roughly the same amount of access money." "So in China, it might be a bribe; in the U.S., it might more likely be lobbying or influence-peddling of some sort"

lotsofpulp 5y ago
The key fact that there is no freedom of speech or transparency in China makes me doubt the validity of any of this research.
- carabiner 5y ago
  If you are an employee of a corporation you live under totalitarianism.
  - xxpor 5y ago
    Ah yeah if i call my boss a dumbass I fully expect to be dragged off to room 101. Or a mobile execution van, in China's case. Get a grip man.
    - phyrex 5y ago
      Yeah because that totally happens in China all the time..
      - xxpor 5y ago
        https://www.scmp.com/topics/xi-jinpings-anti-corruption-campaign https://www.scmp.com/topics/xi-jinpings-anti-corruption-camp... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_van#People's_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_van#People's_Republi...
        phyrex 5y ago
        You imply that a political anti corruption campaign is equivalent to “calling your boss a dumbass”?
    - vadfa 5y ago
      Come out as a conservative (a real conservative, not a neocon or anything like that) in the tech scene and watch yourself starve.
      - xxpor 5y ago
        How much is Peter Thiel worth again?
        finite_jest 5y ago
        You certainly don't mean that conservatives should be billionaires to have a right to free expression, do you?
      - AtlasBarfed 5y ago
        What's a real conservative?
        rp1 5y ago

ralmidani 5y ago

Communist-dominated China might appear to be ‘less corrupt’ because it has an unapologetic and unrepentant totalitarian regime that makes no meaningful concessions on political issues, but it’s actually less subtle than corruption in the US. The US political system has many, many problems (e.g. winner-take-all two-party system in most places, no restrictions on the corrupting influence of money thanks to Citizens United, out-of-touch incumbents in many places, unwavering support for Zionism among the majority of politicians). But all of these can still, in theory, be changed via activism, lobbying, lawsuits, and constitutional amendments. Don’t like any aspect of China’s political/economic system? Well, too bad. I would advocate for a more nuanced understanding of corruption than that used in the OP - just because it’s a country’s ruler(s) who is/are taking an outsized chunk of the resources and refusing to share, that does not mean it is not corruption. And even more broadly, totalitarianism and ruler-worship like we see in China (and also North Korea, Iran, Syria, etc.) are also obscene and corrosive (and, I would argue, immoral). Economics, politics, and society are inevitably intertwined, and attempts to separate them often miss the point.

carabiner 5y ago
US could be really great in theory, like you say. China is good in practice. In the US, we value being able to insult leaders as part of "freedom of speech." In China, they accept a paternalistic guidance that ignores dissent for the sake of actual progress. In the US, we celebrate childish squabbling among our leaders, while China builds high speed rail and nuclear power. The CPC's progress has been extraordinary. They've done more to improve the lives of more people than any government in the past 30 years. Pretend you're an alien visiting the Earth in 2021. Can you honestly say that they'd find the US to have better governance? I see China as a modern tech company that bans political conversations in the workplace in order to get shit done. The US is some hippie-dippie Biosphere 2 "democratic" process that just leads to infighting and stagnation.
- simmerup 5y ago
  If the US was like China you’d get a visit from the secret police for posting something so disparaging about your country. It’s actually embarrassing how ignorant you are of your privilege while glorifying a country that is persecuting millions