8 ms·

I guess you're on a US salary as a contractor? There's no way I could afford more than 2 bedrooms in the city as a senior engineer, and even that's a push.

CapitainEvident 5y ago
I’m not in Amsterdam, but my mate works in Amsterdam and lives on a single engineer Dutch salary in a beautiful 2 bed with a separate dinning/kitchen/lounge near Sarphatipark, 10 minutes walk from Museumplein, walking distance from the Rembrandt Museum and to work.
- llampx 5y ago
  Did he buy or rent the apartment recently and from his own savings+income? Many such stories involve an old rental contract, a family-owned apartment or sizeable inheritance.
  - jseban 5y ago
    Yep, and commonly also a loan from parents for downpayment to buy.
    - CapitainEvident 5y ago
      Not a lack of 75-100 m2 (3 bedrooms) under €600,000 in walking distance from the most famous tourist attractions, I know as I looked. Smaller 2 bedrooms can be bought in the center of Amsterdam for €350,000 with a €35,000 deposit (10%). How is that not viable for a tech worker?
      - jseban 5y ago
        It's sort of viable, but you'd have to spend 2-3 years living in overpriced temporary sublets while trying to save up to that deposit, and still it just supports the original comment which was that you could only afford 2 bedrooms and even that is a push. To get one of those 600k apartments you'd have to flip your first apartment for the bigger downpayment, and that's gonna take another 2 years.
        zchrykng 5y ago
        That 2 bedroom apartment costs way more than my 5 bedroom house that is ~420 m2. Housing prices in some places are crazy.
        CapitainEvident 5y ago
        Evidently. That 2 bedroom apartment is in one of the most desirable areas of the most desirable city in the country. Location matters.
        CapitainEvident 5y ago
        We are talking about living right in the centre of Amsterdam. No one is stopping you from buying something with a much lower deposit at a cycling distance from the city centre or a much smaller deposit with a 30 minutes public transport commute for 2 years so you can then afford to live in one of the most desirable areas of a main city with a sizeable tourist industry. That’s 2 years saving to then live where you want and then an extra 2 years to live where you want in the apartment that you want which is oversized for a single person. Why do you need a 3 bed as a single person and what’s your ideal scenario? Do you want to be able to afford a house without a deposit, is that it?
  - CapitainEvident 5y ago
    Bought from own savings and income 4 years ago with no help from parents, not a family-owned apartment or sizeable inheritance. Owner is an immigrant from a developing country, the exchange rate alone would be prohibitive for any family assistance.
    - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
      >Bought from own savings and income 4 years ago IIRC the housing market in the Netherlands 4 years ago was way more accessible than the madness of today so that's probably not a surprise that he could afford it. Ask him if he could have bought in the market of today please.
      - CapitainEvident 5y ago
        Still affordable in today’s market. This shouldn’t even be up to discussion as anyone can check the available houses for sale in Amsterdam and what they sold for.
dr_dshiv 5y ago
My own company. Capitol cities are expensive; but compared with most, I still find Amsterdam reasonable. Part of the reason is that it isn’t necessary to live in Amsterdam to have the kind of lifestyle I’m describing; there are so many walkable, bikeable, transport accessible,kid-friendly and beautiful neighborhoods in this country. Open to critique; it’s a beautiful day today so I have my rose colored glasses on. Here are the family places in Amsterdam for less than 900k. According to ABNAMRO, that’s affordable (with mortgage), if you have two incomes that gross 150k. https://www.funda.nl/koop/gemeente-amsterdam/ https://www.funda.nl/koop/gemeente-amsterdam/
ChuckNorris89 5y ago
Yeah, that US viewpoint kinda irks me too. Of course Europe is cheap when you earn US tech salaries. Amsterdam is definitely not cheap on your average non-FAANG/IB local Dutch wages.
- nivenkos 5y ago
  Even FAANG pays shit in Europe. I was paid 75k at Amazon. Europe is designed for the landed aristocracy, not working people.
  - smikhanov 5y ago
    For FAANG, levels.fyi shows pretty competitive salaries in European cities where it has presence (Munich, Amsterdam, London, etc) — most are in six figures. Every time I put those figures in expatistan.com, I absolutely don’t get the feeling that FAANG salaries are low in Europe. Local European IT firms (your local broadband provider, or a supermarket chain) normally pay much less though.
  - dvdkon 5y ago
    I recall housing prices being mostly reasonable 15-20 years ago, I don't think our current woes are the result of any "design".
    - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
      >I recall housing prices being mostly reasonable 15-20 years ago And bitcoin was a fraction of a dollar just 10 years ago. Unfortunately, we don't have a time machine and the housing prices of today have far outpaced the earning increases that the working class saw in that time. 15-20 years ago, housing was seen mostly as a place you'd buy to live yourself, not an investment vehicle you'd buy to get grand returns from. That's the difference.
      - dvdkon 5y ago
        Our opinions on the cause aside, we had reasonably priced housing before, we can have it again, without fundamentally changing the way our cities are built (that's not to discount any other reasons to do so).
CalRobert 5y ago
This might be useful to you - trimodal nature of comp in NL. https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-salaries-in-the-netherlands-and-europe/ https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-sala...
- nivenkos 5y ago
  In my experience, it's bullshit. The author must be conflating staff positions with "senior". I was paid 75k as an L5 engineer at Amazon, that's like intermediate senior (two levels down from Staff). So maybe one level up you'd get 100-110k? I've never seen salaries anywhere close to that article. Even contractors might pay $150k (and then you have to pay your own taxes, insurance, etc. out of that).
  - quantumofalpha 5y ago
    The author is spot on. You just happened to be working for the scrappiest/shittiest faang that's all. Shop around, there is decent money to be made in Europe - but of course it's not as easy to walk into it as in the US today. Oh and don't forget that it's TC that matters in big public tech, not salary.
    - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
      >You just happened to be working for the scrappiest/shittiest faang that's all. You know, with this statement you've just proved his point, that good tech wages in Europe are super scarce when you need to be very picky with wich FAANG you join for good compensation. That's basically skimming the cream off the cream you just skimmed. How much are you left with now, ~1% of the total tech jobs?
      - quantumofalpha 5y ago
        Amazon is worst payer among them in the US as well. Facebook and Google pay decent money in London and Zurich, almost on par with US in the latter, London is maybe ~30% less. > How much are you left with now, ~1% of the total tech jobs? If you want top 1% pay, you gonna have to hunt for top 1% jobs, seems obvious, no?
herbst 5y ago
To be fair for me (Swiss and self employed) the renting prices in beautiful places like Haarlem or Rotterdam appeared really tempting. Nice big apartments nearby the city for less than $1000/m are basically unheard of in Switzerland, or Austria for that matter. No idea what locals earn there, but from a outside perspective it appeared really affordable if you ignore the high taxes :3

CapitainEvident 5y ago

I’m not in Amsterdam, but my mate works in Amsterdam and lives on a single engineer Dutch salary in a beautiful 2 bed with a separate dinning/kitchen/lounge near Sarphatipark, 10 minutes walk from Museumplein, walking distance from the Rembrandt Museum and to work.

llampx 5y ago
Did he buy or rent the apartment recently and from his own savings+income? Many such stories involve an old rental contract, a family-owned apartment or sizeable inheritance.
- jseban 5y ago
  Yep, and commonly also a loan from parents for downpayment to buy.
  - CapitainEvident 5y ago
    Not a lack of 75-100 m2 (3 bedrooms) under €600,000 in walking distance from the most famous tourist attractions, I know as I looked. Smaller 2 bedrooms can be bought in the center of Amsterdam for €350,000 with a €35,000 deposit (10%). How is that not viable for a tech worker?
    - jseban 5y ago
      It's sort of viable, but you'd have to spend 2-3 years living in overpriced temporary sublets while trying to save up to that deposit, and still it just supports the original comment which was that you could only afford 2 bedrooms and even that is a push. To get one of those 600k apartments you'd have to flip your first apartment for the bigger downpayment, and that's gonna take another 2 years.
      - zchrykng 5y ago
        That 2 bedroom apartment costs way more than my 5 bedroom house that is ~420 m2. Housing prices in some places are crazy.
        CapitainEvident 5y ago
        Evidently. That 2 bedroom apartment is in one of the most desirable areas of the most desirable city in the country. Location matters.
      - CapitainEvident 5y ago
        We are talking about living right in the centre of Amsterdam. No one is stopping you from buying something with a much lower deposit at a cycling distance from the city centre or a much smaller deposit with a 30 minutes public transport commute for 2 years so you can then afford to live in one of the most desirable areas of a main city with a sizeable tourist industry. That’s 2 years saving to then live where you want and then an extra 2 years to live where you want in the apartment that you want which is oversized for a single person. Why do you need a 3 bed as a single person and what’s your ideal scenario? Do you want to be able to afford a house without a deposit, is that it?
- CapitainEvident 5y ago
  Bought from own savings and income 4 years ago with no help from parents, not a family-owned apartment or sizeable inheritance. Owner is an immigrant from a developing country, the exchange rate alone would be prohibitive for any family assistance.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    >Bought from own savings and income 4 years ago IIRC the housing market in the Netherlands 4 years ago was way more accessible than the madness of today so that's probably not a surprise that he could afford it. Ask him if he could have bought in the market of today please.
    - CapitainEvident 5y ago
      Still affordable in today’s market. This shouldn’t even be up to discussion as anyone can check the available houses for sale in Amsterdam and what they sold for.

dr_dshiv 5y ago

My own company. Capitol cities are expensive; but compared with most, I still find Amsterdam reasonable. Part of the reason is that it isn’t necessary to live in Amsterdam to have the kind of lifestyle I’m describing; there are so many walkable, bikeable, transport accessible,kid-friendly and beautiful neighborhoods in this country. Open to critique; it’s a beautiful day today so I have my rose colored glasses on. Here are the family places in Amsterdam for less than 900k. According to ABNAMRO, that’s affordable (with mortgage), if you have two incomes that gross 150k. https://www.funda.nl/koop/gemeente-amsterdam/ https://www.funda.nl/koop/gemeente-amsterdam/

ChuckNorris89 5y ago

Yeah, that US viewpoint kinda irks me too. Of course Europe is cheap when you earn US tech salaries. Amsterdam is definitely not cheap on your average non-FAANG/IB local Dutch wages.

nivenkos 5y ago
Even FAANG pays shit in Europe. I was paid 75k at Amazon. Europe is designed for the landed aristocracy, not working people.
- smikhanov 5y ago
  For FAANG, levels.fyi shows pretty competitive salaries in European cities where it has presence (Munich, Amsterdam, London, etc) — most are in six figures. Every time I put those figures in expatistan.com, I absolutely don’t get the feeling that FAANG salaries are low in Europe. Local European IT firms (your local broadband provider, or a supermarket chain) normally pay much less though.
- dvdkon 5y ago
  I recall housing prices being mostly reasonable 15-20 years ago, I don't think our current woes are the result of any "design".
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    >I recall housing prices being mostly reasonable 15-20 years ago And bitcoin was a fraction of a dollar just 10 years ago. Unfortunately, we don't have a time machine and the housing prices of today have far outpaced the earning increases that the working class saw in that time. 15-20 years ago, housing was seen mostly as a place you'd buy to live yourself, not an investment vehicle you'd buy to get grand returns from. That's the difference.
    - dvdkon 5y ago
      Our opinions on the cause aside, we had reasonably priced housing before, we can have it again, without fundamentally changing the way our cities are built (that's not to discount any other reasons to do so).

CalRobert 5y ago

This might be useful to you - trimodal nature of comp in NL. https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-salaries-in-the-netherlands-and-europe/ https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-sala...

nivenkos 5y ago
In my experience, it's bullshit. The author must be conflating staff positions with "senior". I was paid 75k as an L5 engineer at Amazon, that's like intermediate senior (two levels down from Staff). So maybe one level up you'd get 100-110k? I've never seen salaries anywhere close to that article. Even contractors might pay $150k (and then you have to pay your own taxes, insurance, etc. out of that).
- quantumofalpha 5y ago
  The author is spot on. You just happened to be working for the scrappiest/shittiest faang that's all. Shop around, there is decent money to be made in Europe - but of course it's not as easy to walk into it as in the US today. Oh and don't forget that it's TC that matters in big public tech, not salary.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    >You just happened to be working for the scrappiest/shittiest faang that's all. You know, with this statement you've just proved his point, that good tech wages in Europe are super scarce when you need to be very picky with wich FAANG you join for good compensation. That's basically skimming the cream off the cream you just skimmed. How much are you left with now, ~1% of the total tech jobs?
    - quantumofalpha 5y ago
      Amazon is worst payer among them in the US as well. Facebook and Google pay decent money in London and Zurich, almost on par with US in the latter, London is maybe ~30% less. > How much are you left with now, ~1% of the total tech jobs? If you want top 1% pay, you gonna have to hunt for top 1% jobs, seems obvious, no?

herbst 5y ago

To be fair for me (Swiss and self employed) the renting prices in beautiful places like Haarlem or Rotterdam appeared really tempting. Nice big apartments nearby the city for less than $1000/m are basically unheard of in Switzerland, or Austria for that matter. No idea what locals earn there, but from a outside perspective it appeared really affordable if you ignore the high taxes :3