10 ms·

Romantic friendship: deep and lasting connection comes in many forms

128 points by portobello 5y ago

portobello 5y ago
http://web.archive.org/web/20211102221548/https://www.newstatesman.com/ideas/agora/2021/11/what-is-romantic-friendship http://web.archive.org/web/20211102221548/https://www.newsta...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
GauntletWizard 5y ago
I don't think we do. As the article notes, these are not new concepts - the Greeks had four words for different types of loves, as recently as 50 years ago they were still known and understood in pop culture [1] It is a recent invention that has us all confused. The rush to validate the gay rights movement has pushed people far beyond their comfort zone, and the culture war has put pressure on people to assert their allegiance to the camps by overstating or denying their deep connections. "I love you bro" was actually a pretty common sentiment, and now many very progressive people feel the need to qualify it - "I love you, bro, but not like in a sexual way, not that there's anything wrong with that" Lines have been blurred and confused and nobody's the better for it. It is a shift in religion that caused us to lose our knowledge of how to love someone as a friend. [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Four_Loves https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Four_Loves
- maxlamb 5y ago
  The ancient Greeks had actually at least 6 words for the different types of love: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love
  - foundart 5y ago
    Yes, I think the article stumbled on this topic by describing a limitation of the term philia when in fact there were other terms for other concepts.
- slv77 5y ago
  Niobe Way comes to similar conclusions in Deep Secrets: Boys’ Friendships and the Crisis of Connection but I’m not sure I’d pin it on a shift in religion but the hyper-sexualization of society that started in the 60’s where every intimate relationship was primarily defined in the context of sex. Today much of the language and expressions of intimate relationships has been entirely co-opted and has sexual overtones compared to the 1800’s. Expressions such as holding hands and words such as love and intimate all now have sexual overtones they previously did not. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/04/the-secret-lives-of-boys/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/04/the-secret-li... https://dustyoldthing.com/19th-century-concept-of-friendship/ https://dustyoldthing.com/19th-century-concept-of-friendship...
  - GauntletWizard 5y ago
    I'm saying that the hyper-sexualization is a religion, or at least part of one. It is part of a series of memes that redefine all human relationships in terms of "Power", some nebulous concept that does not really map to the way humans interact except in a very weird misunderstanding of second-order effects. Call it Queer, call it Progressive, call it Woke or whatever - It's religion.
    - lucretian 5y ago
      this is even worse than what you originally wrote.
      - harinoka 5y ago
        How is it worse? Or even bad?
    - Talanes 5y ago
      This is a very surreal argument to see made, because my father's big theory on the modern left is that they've all gone a little bit chaste.
- ReactiveJelly 5y ago
  > the rush to validate do you mean society would be better off if gay rights took longer to catch on? > nobody is better for it... shift in religion I am better for it. I have never been religious, though.
- at_a_remove 5y ago
  I agree. I am very close to one friend, who is reasonably high on the Kinsey scale, though I am not. It is a source of frustration to me that deep friendships between men get reduced to something sexual, as if men were incapable of forming attachments that aren't based around our dicks. Women can be particularly nasty about it.
- lucretian 5y ago
  > The rush to validate the gay rights movement has pushed people far beyond their comfort zone, and the culture war has put pressure on people to assert their allegiance to the camps by overstating or denying their deep connections. "I love you bro" was actually a pretty common sentiment, and now many very progressive people feel the need to qualify it - "I love you, bro, but not like in a sexual way, not that there's anything wrong with that" to counter your anecdote, in all my years of experiencing strong, platonic same-sex friendships - including ones in which we expressed love for each other - i have not once thought even for a moment about the gay rights movement, or anyone's perception of my sexuality. i think your comment may reveal more about your own state of mind than it does anything broader about society. i encourage you to reflect on that. * edited to remove unnecessary sarcasm. as has always been true, but is especially the case now, it's impossible to tell if someone is arguing in good or bad faith on the web. but i'm going to assume you're talking about your lived experience and are open to a discussion on this and not a troll trying to spread right-wing talking points.
  - harinoka 5y ago
    > i think your comment may reveal more about your own state of mind than it does anything broader about society. i encourage you to reflect on that. Seems like you are the one trying to troll here. Probably it depends on where you live but my experience align with those of GP.
- standardUser 5y ago
  "...and now many very progressive people feel the need to qualify it - "I love you, bro, but not like in a sexual way, not that there's anything wrong with that"" I cannot relate to that even a little and it is wildly incompatible with my lived experiences. Maybe back in the 90's there was some of that going on. But I know plenty of men I could call right now and tell them I love them without either of us grasping for some "I'm straight" life preserver. The entire concept sounds tragically outdated.
  - Talanes 5y ago
    If anything, the modern progressive crowd that GP is referencing are far more likely to find the reflexive qualifiers themselves problematic.
cryptica 5y ago
[flagged]
- lvass 5y ago
  I really dislike the way you put it, but in practice it's equivalent to my experience. Meaningful non-financial relationships are so rare that I shouldn't have bothered trying, every single time I did.
- circlefavshape 5y ago
  You don't have to live like this. I recommend you find some new friends not connected with your work - join a choir or maybe an improv group
  - cryptica 5y ago
    I think even this won't work. Friendship just doesn't work in this system. Everyone is just looking for an opportunity to take whatever you have; even if they have more than you overall, people are greedy; they will find the one thing you have better and subconsciously try to take it or ruin if for you. If you have something that someone else wants, they will take it as soon as you turn your back. If they can't take it, they will get satisfaction from seeing you lose it. I think unfortunately, the average person is just not altruistic enough to deserve friendship. For sure, they exist, but you won't find them. The actors are too good and too many; they will waste your life.
    - jamisteven 5y ago
      If you dont mind me asking, where do you live? City wise..
      - cryptica 5y ago
        I lived in different cities in Australia (which I assume is similar to the US)... Schools there are full of bullies and cliques (if that's an indication of how cruel the average person is). Actually I did meet a 'soulmate' eventually (a foreigner actually) and married them but looking back now, I think it was like winning the lottery. I had to make so many compromises but it has been worth it. Extreme hardship is the only way to know if you've found a true friend and it's not something you can experience often (or at all) in your life because of how much time it takes... Also it's too easy to discard a good person too early because your own ego is getting in the way. IMO, genuine people do tend to hurt you in the first few years because that's what honest and realistic people do; the truth hurts.
xtiansimon 5y ago
> “In fact, their relationship did become sexual at one point.” Lost me here. I have a few acquaintances who I know who are very interesting, but unconventional. I struggle sometimes with interpreting what they say. He/she confusion (from a native speaker) for example. I am interested in the case where there is no sexual dimension of the friendship (at least from one person), but where social landscape presents fluid sexuality as background noise. I’m dealing. I was interested in the discussion of friendship and less so discussion of long game hookups. Haha
ZeroGravitas 5y ago
Not directly related but "limerance" is a type of love that I find useful to know about: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence That wiki article is quite discursive, but I think about it as "what would evolution need to invent to keep human parents together long enough that their kids didn't die in early infancy", it would need to be strong, but precisly because of that, it probably couldn't last longer than a few years.
- yobbo 5y ago
  Limerance is the agonizing feeling that happens before (or after what-could-have-been) a relationship. The wiki article equates it with "a crush". It's what nature invented to keep lonely guys looking for relationships instead of just walking off into the wilderness.
brabel 5y ago
Sounds a bit like the "Firefly Lane" series on Netflix. https://www.netflix.com/title/80994340 https://www.netflix.com/title/80994340 The two main characters definitely love each other, in a friendly way. It's a beautiful story, but because their love comes from interdependency and vulnerability, as they feel like they can only rely on each other in a world that keeps trying to get them down, it feels like their love is just a little bit less nobel. Perhaps, love without the same difficulties being faced would actually be much less interesting and sincere?!
ReactiveJelly 5y ago
I was hoping for something more conclusive. I have had two good friendships that lasted more than 2 years each. besides them, I feel like I've almost never had friends at all. I don't know if I can say they were romantic. the first one I miss so badly that I wonder if it was. the second one became romantic and now we are married. I terribly want the lifelong deep friendships that normal people seem to form accidentally. I don't know how to form them even on purpose.
- codyb 5y ago
  I can’t say it’ll work, and perhaps you’re already putting in the effort but (as long as it’s okay with your wife!) Some dating apps (Bumble, maybe Tinder?) have options for swiping for friends Other ways I’ve made friends include ski trips on big busses of people I don’t know, volunteer events, and travel tours I think the big key is putting yourself in situations where you’ll be in close proximity with other people you don’t know for an extended period of time, and saying hello Can’t say they’ve all been lifelong friendships (some have been as short as a meal and a number exchange that wasn’t followed up on, some have been many years then faded away, and some are still going strong) People are social. Ask questions about what they like to do, maybe give ‘em a little laugh if you can. Easier said than done certainly, and it’s entirely possible I’m a bit more gregarious than others (although you can practice that by having small conversations with cashiers, waiters, people at help desks. In the last few days people working those positions have told me about Halloween plans, bad customers and more, and they’re always happy to have a little break with someone who’s genuinely interested in how their day is going. It’s important to be genuine!) Take a shot! I believe in you :-). Can’t end up anywhere besides where you already are, but maybe with a few more experiences under your belt so it’s fairly low risk as long as you remember it’s not always your fault if someone is curt, or brusque, or outright rude at your attempt at outreach (sometime’s it’s cultural, sometime’s they’re just having a bad day, some people are very introverted, etc, sometime’s it is you! No reason to get hung up on that or assume it though, we all make mistakes) And certainly, easier said than done, and people have different situations for a variety of reasons. But still, you got this!
  - Kalium 5y ago
scns 5y ago
Since several years my definition of friendship is: Love without sex.
- iammisc 5y ago
  I think it's extremely telling that our culture equates love with sex so much, that you differentiate friendship (the most common form of relationship) with 'love without sex' rather than marriage (or whatever) as 'love with sex'. IMO. the equating of love with sex is why so many find it difficult to make friends.
  - B-Con 5y ago
    I also find the love=sex equivalence very strange. IMO it stunts the development of close friendships who feel as if they can't form emotional bonds without also forming physical ones. Then it also acts as a false forcing function to consider oneself bi-sexual because they love and enjoy a wide variety of people, despite not actually desiring to pursue a sexual relationship with all of them. It's bizarre how often I've heard "I'm kinda bi, but like only want to date gender Foo". Like, WTF is our notion of love anymore, and how badly are we messing up the next generation.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
braramod 5y ago
This is quite an interesting take about Romantic friendship. It is a spectacle that there are different kinds of perspectives regarding love. As deep and lasting love comes in different terms.
forgotmypw17 5y ago
After discovering that I'm "poly", whatever that means, I realized that there is absolutely no point for me to "sever" my relationships or "break up" and transition tht person into an "ex". I've decided to keep all my relationships working and sustain them as much as possible, within sane reason. (I heard a poem read once about giving away the key to one's heart to someone, but refusing to change the lock, so that all previous keys continue to work.) This has been one of the most rewarding decisions of my life. I still wonder about the original purpose of our societal norms so strongly encouraging abandoning a just recently beautiful and supportive relationship just because it doesn't check all the boxes of "The One And Only".
- spurgu 5y ago
  > After discovering that I'm "poly" Interesting. How did you come to discover this?
  - forgotmypw17 5y ago
    Ever since an early age (I mean pre-puberty) the idea of choosing "one and only, forever and ever" made little sense. I remember reading a story about a very limited open relationship when I was about 12, and thinking, gosh, why don't they open it up MORE instead of running away at first sign of difficulty? (The plot was that this couple had "base rules" that they could have sex with anyone they wanted, but ONLY ONCE, and NO FEELINGS ALLOWED. You can guess what happened.) Later, I just came to love more than one person, and after struggling with trying to make sense of it, I decided that I didn't want to choose, and I would do whatever it takes to make it work somehow. I started reading all sorts of books about making relationships work, and applying what I learned. I can't say it was easy, but it was much less painful and more rewarding than what to me seems like cutting off an arm because you can't be bothered to learn how to use it in coordination with your other arm. Later, I found out that my grandparents actually had somewhat of an open relationship, although it was obviously much more difficult back then and in a conservative society, so perhaps it is just in my genes?
    - harinoka 5y ago

128 points by portobello 5y ago

http://web.archive.org/web/20211102221548/https://www.newstatesman.com/ideas/agora/2021/11/what-is-romantic-friendship http://web.archive.org/web/20211102221548/https://www.newsta...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

GauntletWizard 5y ago

I don't think we do. As the article notes, these are not new concepts - the Greeks had four words for different types of loves, as recently as 50 years ago they were still known and understood in pop culture [1] It is a recent invention that has us all confused. The rush to validate the gay rights movement has pushed people far beyond their comfort zone, and the culture war has put pressure on people to assert their allegiance to the camps by overstating or denying their deep connections. "I love you bro" was actually a pretty common sentiment, and now many very progressive people feel the need to qualify it - "I love you, bro, but not like in a sexual way, not that there's anything wrong with that" Lines have been blurred and confused and nobody's the better for it. It is a shift in religion that caused us to lose our knowledge of how to love someone as a friend. [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Four_Loves https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Four_Loves

maxlamb 5y ago
The ancient Greeks had actually at least 6 words for the different types of love: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love
- foundart 5y ago
  Yes, I think the article stumbled on this topic by describing a limitation of the term philia when in fact there were other terms for other concepts.
slv77 5y ago
Niobe Way comes to similar conclusions in Deep Secrets: Boys’ Friendships and the Crisis of Connection but I’m not sure I’d pin it on a shift in religion but the hyper-sexualization of society that started in the 60’s where every intimate relationship was primarily defined in the context of sex. Today much of the language and expressions of intimate relationships has been entirely co-opted and has sexual overtones compared to the 1800’s. Expressions such as holding hands and words such as love and intimate all now have sexual overtones they previously did not. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/04/the-secret-lives-of-boys/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/04/the-secret-li... https://dustyoldthing.com/19th-century-concept-of-friendship/ https://dustyoldthing.com/19th-century-concept-of-friendship...
- GauntletWizard 5y ago
  I'm saying that the hyper-sexualization is a religion, or at least part of one. It is part of a series of memes that redefine all human relationships in terms of "Power", some nebulous concept that does not really map to the way humans interact except in a very weird misunderstanding of second-order effects. Call it Queer, call it Progressive, call it Woke or whatever - It's religion.
  - lucretian 5y ago
    this is even worse than what you originally wrote.
    - harinoka 5y ago
      How is it worse? Or even bad?
  - Talanes 5y ago
    This is a very surreal argument to see made, because my father's big theory on the modern left is that they've all gone a little bit chaste.
ReactiveJelly 5y ago
> the rush to validate do you mean society would be better off if gay rights took longer to catch on? > nobody is better for it... shift in religion I am better for it. I have never been religious, though.
at_a_remove 5y ago
I agree. I am very close to one friend, who is reasonably high on the Kinsey scale, though I am not. It is a source of frustration to me that deep friendships between men get reduced to something sexual, as if men were incapable of forming attachments that aren't based around our dicks. Women can be particularly nasty about it.
lucretian 5y ago
> The rush to validate the gay rights movement has pushed people far beyond their comfort zone, and the culture war has put pressure on people to assert their allegiance to the camps by overstating or denying their deep connections. "I love you bro" was actually a pretty common sentiment, and now many very progressive people feel the need to qualify it - "I love you, bro, but not like in a sexual way, not that there's anything wrong with that" to counter your anecdote, in all my years of experiencing strong, platonic same-sex friendships - including ones in which we expressed love for each other - i have not once thought even for a moment about the gay rights movement, or anyone's perception of my sexuality. i think your comment may reveal more about your own state of mind than it does anything broader about society. i encourage you to reflect on that. * edited to remove unnecessary sarcasm. as has always been true, but is especially the case now, it's impossible to tell if someone is arguing in good or bad faith on the web. but i'm going to assume you're talking about your lived experience and are open to a discussion on this and not a troll trying to spread right-wing talking points.
- harinoka 5y ago
  > i think your comment may reveal more about your own state of mind than it does anything broader about society. i encourage you to reflect on that. Seems like you are the one trying to troll here. Probably it depends on where you live but my experience align with those of GP.
standardUser 5y ago
"...and now many very progressive people feel the need to qualify it - "I love you, bro, but not like in a sexual way, not that there's anything wrong with that"" I cannot relate to that even a little and it is wildly incompatible with my lived experiences. Maybe back in the 90's there was some of that going on. But I know plenty of men I could call right now and tell them I love them without either of us grasping for some "I'm straight" life preserver. The entire concept sounds tragically outdated.
- Talanes 5y ago
  If anything, the modern progressive crowd that GP is referencing are far more likely to find the reflexive qualifiers themselves problematic.

cryptica 5y ago

[flagged]

lvass 5y ago
I really dislike the way you put it, but in practice it's equivalent to my experience. Meaningful non-financial relationships are so rare that I shouldn't have bothered trying, every single time I did.
circlefavshape 5y ago
You don't have to live like this. I recommend you find some new friends not connected with your work - join a choir or maybe an improv group
- cryptica 5y ago
  I think even this won't work. Friendship just doesn't work in this system. Everyone is just looking for an opportunity to take whatever you have; even if they have more than you overall, people are greedy; they will find the one thing you have better and subconsciously try to take it or ruin if for you. If you have something that someone else wants, they will take it as soon as you turn your back. If they can't take it, they will get satisfaction from seeing you lose it. I think unfortunately, the average person is just not altruistic enough to deserve friendship. For sure, they exist, but you won't find them. The actors are too good and too many; they will waste your life.
  - jamisteven 5y ago
    If you dont mind me asking, where do you live? City wise..
    - cryptica 5y ago
      I lived in different cities in Australia (which I assume is similar to the US)... Schools there are full of bullies and cliques (if that's an indication of how cruel the average person is). Actually I did meet a 'soulmate' eventually (a foreigner actually) and married them but looking back now, I think it was like winning the lottery. I had to make so many compromises but it has been worth it. Extreme hardship is the only way to know if you've found a true friend and it's not something you can experience often (or at all) in your life because of how much time it takes... Also it's too easy to discard a good person too early because your own ego is getting in the way. IMO, genuine people do tend to hurt you in the first few years because that's what honest and realistic people do; the truth hurts.

xtiansimon 5y ago

> “In fact, their relationship did become sexual at one point.” Lost me here. I have a few acquaintances who I know who are very interesting, but unconventional. I struggle sometimes with interpreting what they say. He/she confusion (from a native speaker) for example. I am interested in the case where there is no sexual dimension of the friendship (at least from one person), but where social landscape presents fluid sexuality as background noise. I’m dealing. I was interested in the discussion of friendship and less so discussion of long game hookups. Haha

ZeroGravitas 5y ago

Not directly related but "limerance" is a type of love that I find useful to know about: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence That wiki article is quite discursive, but I think about it as "what would evolution need to invent to keep human parents together long enough that their kids didn't die in early infancy", it would need to be strong, but precisly because of that, it probably couldn't last longer than a few years.

yobbo 5y ago
Limerance is the agonizing feeling that happens before (or after what-could-have-been) a relationship. The wiki article equates it with "a crush". It's what nature invented to keep lonely guys looking for relationships instead of just walking off into the wilderness.

brabel 5y ago

Sounds a bit like the "Firefly Lane" series on Netflix. https://www.netflix.com/title/80994340 https://www.netflix.com/title/80994340 The two main characters definitely love each other, in a friendly way. It's a beautiful story, but because their love comes from interdependency and vulnerability, as they feel like they can only rely on each other in a world that keeps trying to get them down, it feels like their love is just a little bit less nobel. Perhaps, love without the same difficulties being faced would actually be much less interesting and sincere?!

ReactiveJelly 5y ago

I was hoping for something more conclusive. I have had two good friendships that lasted more than 2 years each. besides them, I feel like I've almost never had friends at all. I don't know if I can say they were romantic. the first one I miss so badly that I wonder if it was. the second one became romantic and now we are married. I terribly want the lifelong deep friendships that normal people seem to form accidentally. I don't know how to form them even on purpose.

codyb 5y ago
I can’t say it’ll work, and perhaps you’re already putting in the effort but (as long as it’s okay with your wife!) Some dating apps (Bumble, maybe Tinder?) have options for swiping for friends Other ways I’ve made friends include ski trips on big busses of people I don’t know, volunteer events, and travel tours I think the big key is putting yourself in situations where you’ll be in close proximity with other people you don’t know for an extended period of time, and saying hello Can’t say they’ve all been lifelong friendships (some have been as short as a meal and a number exchange that wasn’t followed up on, some have been many years then faded away, and some are still going strong) People are social. Ask questions about what they like to do, maybe give ‘em a little laugh if you can. Easier said than done certainly, and it’s entirely possible I’m a bit more gregarious than others (although you can practice that by having small conversations with cashiers, waiters, people at help desks. In the last few days people working those positions have told me about Halloween plans, bad customers and more, and they’re always happy to have a little break with someone who’s genuinely interested in how their day is going. It’s important to be genuine!) Take a shot! I believe in you :-). Can’t end up anywhere besides where you already are, but maybe with a few more experiences under your belt so it’s fairly low risk as long as you remember it’s not always your fault if someone is curt, or brusque, or outright rude at your attempt at outreach (sometime’s it’s cultural, sometime’s they’re just having a bad day, some people are very introverted, etc, sometime’s it is you! No reason to get hung up on that or assume it though, we all make mistakes) And certainly, easier said than done, and people have different situations for a variety of reasons. But still, you got this!
- Kalium 5y ago

scns 5y ago

Since several years my definition of friendship is: Love without sex.

iammisc 5y ago
I think it's extremely telling that our culture equates love with sex so much, that you differentiate friendship (the most common form of relationship) with 'love without sex' rather than marriage (or whatever) as 'love with sex'. IMO. the equating of love with sex is why so many find it difficult to make friends.
- B-Con 5y ago
  I also find the love=sex equivalence very strange. IMO it stunts the development of close friendships who feel as if they can't form emotional bonds without also forming physical ones. Then it also acts as a false forcing function to consider oneself bi-sexual because they love and enjoy a wide variety of people, despite not actually desiring to pursue a sexual relationship with all of them. It's bizarre how often I've heard "I'm kinda bi, but like only want to date gender Foo". Like, WTF is our notion of love anymore, and how badly are we messing up the next generation.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

braramod 5y ago

This is quite an interesting take about Romantic friendship. It is a spectacle that there are different kinds of perspectives regarding love. As deep and lasting love comes in different terms.

forgotmypw17 5y ago

After discovering that I'm "poly", whatever that means, I realized that there is absolutely no point for me to "sever" my relationships or "break up" and transition tht person into an "ex". I've decided to keep all my relationships working and sustain them as much as possible, within sane reason. (I heard a poem read once about giving away the key to one's heart to someone, but refusing to change the lock, so that all previous keys continue to work.) This has been one of the most rewarding decisions of my life. I still wonder about the original purpose of our societal norms so strongly encouraging abandoning a just recently beautiful and supportive relationship just because it doesn't check all the boxes of "The One And Only".

spurgu 5y ago
> After discovering that I'm "poly" Interesting. How did you come to discover this?
- forgotmypw17 5y ago
  Ever since an early age (I mean pre-puberty) the idea of choosing "one and only, forever and ever" made little sense. I remember reading a story about a very limited open relationship when I was about 12, and thinking, gosh, why don't they open it up MORE instead of running away at first sign of difficulty? (The plot was that this couple had "base rules" that they could have sex with anyone they wanted, but ONLY ONCE, and NO FEELINGS ALLOWED. You can guess what happened.) Later, I just came to love more than one person, and after struggling with trying to make sense of it, I decided that I didn't want to choose, and I would do whatever it takes to make it work somehow. I started reading all sorts of books about making relationships work, and applying what I learned. I can't say it was easy, but it was much less painful and more rewarding than what to me seems like cutting off an arm because you can't be bothered to learn how to use it in coordination with your other arm. Later, I found out that my grandparents actually had somewhat of an open relationship, although it was obviously much more difficult back then and in a conservative society, so perhaps it is just in my genes?
  - harinoka 5y ago