3 ms·

Not to mention that all New York power plants, including Moses Saunders, are connected to a massive electrical highway that runs straight to New York City.

latchkey 5y ago
The lines from Moses Saunders to the plant are direct. You can even see them on google maps if you zoom in and follow them. You can't just suddenly push more power through the same lines.
- dpierce9 5y ago
  The Moses Saunders dam is connected to the NYISO transmission network. The power system in New York is designed to move power north to south, west to east (lines tend to be symmetric in theory but a good model is that the city is the load). You can look at a price map of New York State and see that. Power from the dam can go from it to anywhere else in New York (or the eastern interconnect) at the cost of transmission losses and tolling. Drawing power directly from a hydro plant doesn’t make that power green because, insofar as the plant could supply electricity to the rest of the grid, it means your power usage has the same environmental impact as the average unit of electricity on the grid at that time. The only thing it does is reduce your cost.
  - latchkey 5y ago
    The amount of load that is allocated to the Alcoa facility has been negotiated and fixed into contracts and capex has been spent to build out the infrastructure for that. It isn't like you can just flip a switch and direct the power to the NYISO. > at the cost of transmission losses and tolling ... a key point that I feel you're glossing over.
    - dpierce9 5y ago
      Yes you can flip a switch and direct the power elsewhere, that is what switching yards do. The plant might have a supply contract with Alcoa but if Alcoa doesn’t use the supply they contracted for you they don’t have to throw the power away. Usually those agreements have take or pay provisions which require the buyer to pay regardless of whether they take the power. If they don’t take the power the generator is free to sell it on. Transmission losses are not nothing but they are not huge. Maybe 2% to New York (it isn’t they far). Maybe 5% total if you include distribution. Edit: Follow the lines out of the plant, at 44.978432, -74.797925 they split.
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  This does make me wonder how difficult it is to raise the voltage on the same lines by changing transformers. You might need to separate the lines more (and need bigger insulators), but I wonder how much of this gets overbuilt at the point of construction so you can upgrade to run more energy over the same wires without replacing them. Anyone know?
  - jamincan 5y ago
    The NYPA is in the process of upgrading the Massena-Adirondack transmission lines which will initially be at 230kV, but later be able to be run at 345kV. https://www.nny360.com/news/stlawrencecounty/power-authority-reaches-first-milestone-in-rebuild-of-major-north-south-transmission-artery/article_0da886c3-0a91-5142-b80f-924f87967c56.html https://www.nny360.com/news/stlawrencecounty/power-authority...

latchkey 5y ago

The lines from Moses Saunders to the plant are direct. You can even see them on google maps if you zoom in and follow them. You can't just suddenly push more power through the same lines.

dpierce9 5y ago
The Moses Saunders dam is connected to the NYISO transmission network. The power system in New York is designed to move power north to south, west to east (lines tend to be symmetric in theory but a good model is that the city is the load). You can look at a price map of New York State and see that. Power from the dam can go from it to anywhere else in New York (or the eastern interconnect) at the cost of transmission losses and tolling. Drawing power directly from a hydro plant doesn’t make that power green because, insofar as the plant could supply electricity to the rest of the grid, it means your power usage has the same environmental impact as the average unit of electricity on the grid at that time. The only thing it does is reduce your cost.
- latchkey 5y ago
  The amount of load that is allocated to the Alcoa facility has been negotiated and fixed into contracts and capex has been spent to build out the infrastructure for that. It isn't like you can just flip a switch and direct the power to the NYISO. > at the cost of transmission losses and tolling ... a key point that I feel you're glossing over.
  - dpierce9 5y ago
    Yes you can flip a switch and direct the power elsewhere, that is what switching yards do. The plant might have a supply contract with Alcoa but if Alcoa doesn’t use the supply they contracted for you they don’t have to throw the power away. Usually those agreements have take or pay provisions which require the buyer to pay regardless of whether they take the power. If they don’t take the power the generator is free to sell it on. Transmission losses are not nothing but they are not huge. Maybe 2% to New York (it isn’t they far). Maybe 5% total if you include distribution. Edit: Follow the lines out of the plant, at 44.978432, -74.797925 they split.
Scoundreller 5y ago
This does make me wonder how difficult it is to raise the voltage on the same lines by changing transformers. You might need to separate the lines more (and need bigger insulators), but I wonder how much of this gets overbuilt at the point of construction so you can upgrade to run more energy over the same wires without replacing them. Anyone know?
- jamincan 5y ago
  The NYPA is in the process of upgrading the Massena-Adirondack transmission lines which will initially be at 230kV, but later be able to be run at 345kV. https://www.nny360.com/news/stlawrencecounty/power-authority-reaches-first-milestone-in-rebuild-of-major-north-south-transmission-artery/article_0da886c3-0a91-5142-b80f-924f87967c56.html https://www.nny360.com/news/stlawrencecounty/power-authority...