12 ms·

There is a future that exists where cars aren’t allowed in major cities. Something similar to Amsterdam where people and bikes have right of way, and cars are t

There is a future that exists where cars aren’t allowed in major cities. Something similar to Amsterdam where people and bikes have right of way, and cars are the least preferred mode of travel. Obviously there are situations where you need motorized transport (emergencies, moving day, people with disabilities, businesses etc) but these can be serviced by autonomous vehicles run by the city. All vehicle infrastructure (roadways, parking) would be cut dramatically. Autonomous busses that pick up and drop you off exactly where you need would be the preferred mode of transport but you could even have personalized autonomous cars that people can rent for more privacy. But these would be slow moving vehicles swerving in and out of people and bike traffic, all connected to a central hub. Only problem is with 2 feet of snow on the ground, no one will bike or walk and the demand for these vehicles would greatly strain the system. Not sure how you would account for it.

hi5eyes 5y ago
Toronto solved this for the core with an underground mall
spicyramen 5y ago
This may be unrealistic in our life time. I have 2 kids, 1 toddler and 1 newborn, i can't imagine biking, using public transportation or anything similar when going to doctor, grocery shopping, etc.
- react_burger38 5y ago
  I feel you. Father of 3 here. My two year old always just runs as far as fast as he can pretty much whenever he gets a chance. Won't stay in the stroller either. Putting him in a carseat is much easier. Just went on a flight the other day with the kids and chasing him around the airport wasn't easy, although in the end it was somewhat manageable. Car travel with kids is way easier compared to other methods. We took the kids to Paris a while back and carting the stroller up and down the stairs to the metro was a huge pain.
  - couchand 5y ago
    Perhaps your child runs when he gets the chance because he doesn't have enough chances with all the time spent strapped in a car seat or a stroller?
    - spicyramen 5y ago
      You clearly have no kids
- saltminer 5y ago
  That's because so much of the US is built around suburban sprawl and is incredibly hostile to anyone not in a car. I'd recommend the youtube channel "Not Just Bikes", a guy who moved from Canada to the Netherlands. It's perfectly normal over there to do everything you said is unrealistic. Imagine not having to chaperone your kids around until they're old enough to drive. In much of the US, this is unthinkable, and it takes a large mental toll on parents, but in the Netherlands, it's not uncommon for elementary schoolers to bike to and from school, friends houses, even riding public transit on their own. In much of the US, your kids can be taken by social services for this, even if it was perfectly safe for them to do so. And even if it's legal to let your kids be fairly independent, it doesn't matter when you have to fight to get them back (very much "you can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride"). It's depressing just how far we've fallen under the guise of "protect the children".
  - spicyramen 5y ago
    No, that's incorrect I live in Orange county by far one of the best places for bikes and pedestrians and again I can tell you I won't use public transportation.
  - duderific 5y ago
    > it's not uncommon for elementary schoolers to bike to and from school, friends houses, even riding public transit on their own. I did all of these things when I was in elementary school in the late 70's, and biking without a helmet no less. Hours and hours with no adult supervision, biking all over town. I even went to an theme park with my sister, without parents when we were 9 and 11 - took multiple buses to get there about an hour from my house. We got lost on the way home and didn't know which bus to get on. Somebody helped us and we were fine. Can you imagine the outrage nowadays if such a thing took place.
- jefftk 5y ago
  It's definitely possible; if you talk to parents who live in cities they'll generally be happy to describe how they do it. (Raised two kids from 0 to 5y and 7y without a car. Started splitting a car about 6 months ago when we had a third child. Lots of walking, double decker stroller, bus, subway, and bike trailer.)
  - shashank 5y ago
    Many things are possible, but I might not like doing them. It's totally fine for someone to not want cars and not use them. But it's too far to say nobody should be using them, no matter what. Not implying you said that (I know you just commented on the "unrealistic" part), but just referring to the general theme here. I personally love driving. Since I was a kid, I always wanted to drive cars and even now, I enjoy the feeling of driving a car. One can argue about whether it's the best mode of transport, etc. but for me (and many like me), it's a pleasure of life. Let's try to stop people from carrying assault weapons before we move to cars?
    - golemiprague 5y ago
      It is not a matter of liking, in major congested cities in Europe or Asia it is impossible to use a car, where are you going to park? The whole city is organised differently. Having experience living in both type of cities I can understand why in a suburban US city you will get so attached to your car, it is basically connected to your freedom to get to places because there is no other way. But when I am in a more congested city with a good public transportation and bike culture, the car just becomes a burden.
    - dropofwill 5y ago
      Cars directly kill 3x the amount of people by firearm homicide (in the US), along with an alarming increase in pedestrian deaths. Not saying we should ban cars everywhere or anything like that, but the status quo is not good enough.
      - shashank 5y ago
        I could have been more clear. The comparison to firearms was more to say it's really hard to stop people from doing things they like and want to do, even if they come at a cost to society. At least cars add to productivity and quality of life, while firearms don't (imo).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- couchand 5y ago
  I have two kids and can't imagine forcing them into a car seat at least twice a day. Our walks around our neighborhood are some of our best time together. On the way to school they get exercise, run into friends, and build their autonomy by leading. We walk to the doctor. We walk to the grocery store. Find yourself a built environment that frees you from the shackles of a car.
addicted 5y ago
An alternative to not allowing cars at all is simply eliminating on street parking. At least in NYC. Get rid of on street parking and traffic will plummet. More importantly, a LOT of space will open up. This is probably true of most American downtowns.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
scoopdewoop 5y ago
If only New York had a series of underground tubes connecting different parts of the cities. We could put trains in those tubes!
- curiousllama 5y ago
  It does sound kinda wild when you put it that way. Propose that today and I'd be like "what the HN delusions is this?"
  - raldi 5y ago
    Let's string wires on poles down every street in the nation and use them to put a device in every home that allows anyone in the world to ring a loud bell at any hour, day or night.
    - dannyw 5y ago
      I was thinking about how crazy this is before realising it's true.
      - danielbln 5y ago
        Still sounds partly crazy to me (German). All those lines on poles in the US, I think the only lines here that are above ground are these super high voltage long distance power lines, anything else is underground (and safe from weather etc.)
        AlotOfReading 5y ago
        Geology is one reason. Many major urban areas in the western US have a layer of caliche under the surface. Digging through 1m+ of natural concrete makes underground lines even more hideously expensive than they would otherwise be.
    - ruined 5y ago
      pathetic. the real money is if we blanket the planet in radio from high towers and poles, create thousands of types of mostly-incompatible portable wallet-sized devices that provide this ring-a-loud-bell functionality, make them requisite for daily life so everyone must purchase one to the tune of hundreds of dollars per year and keep it on their person, and then create an automated system that randomly rings every device multiple times per day trying to steal money. oh also they spy on everyone constantly and deliver incredibly volatile cognitohazards if you so much as look at them. and we'll move on from this when we develop cheap brain implants that are even worse
rexreed 5y ago
The future you cite is also our past. In the 1930s most large urban cities had plenty of non-car transportation options, including electric-powered or cable-pulled streetcars, overhead-powered electric as well as gas-powered buses, trams, light rail, underground subways (since early 1900s in NYC), and hackneys of all sorts in the US and Europe and many other places around the world. In fact, it was the spread of gas-powered buses that killed much of the electric-powered streetcars in large cities in the US in the 1950s. With the growth of suburbs and loss of streetcars, the growth of cars in city centers grew unchecked as did air pollution and smog.
- dantheman 5y ago
  I know you like the film roger rabbit, but that's not why trams died.
  - rexreed 5y ago
    It's not the entire reason but it's actually a key part of it [0]. Hey Roger Rabbit isn't entirely fiction but all the good parts are :) [0] https://www.planetizen.com/node/76622 https://www.planetizen.com/node/76622
    - jonny_eh 5y ago
      > It's not the entire reason but it's actually a key part of it [0]. I don't see that in your reference. It's a full-on debunking of the claim that it was a conspiracy.
      - rexreed 5y ago
        From the above referenced article: "For the record, there was a conspiracy according to the 1949 U.S. Supreme Court's ruling in UNITED STATES v. NATIONAL CITY LINES, Inc., et al. " and more to the point it actually says it up top in the title part of the article: "Yes, there was a conspiracy led by General Motors to replace streetcars with their buses in the 1930s." I know it was somewhat mingled with the other points in the article, but it was confirmed in a Supreme Court ruling that there was indeed a conspiracy by the National City Lines and others to buy up streetcar lines and close down operations. What the article says is that despite the conspiracy, the industry was already in decline, with the streetcar companies acquired because many were in bankruptcy. And as such, the decline can't be solely and specifically blamed on the conspiracy, which is a matter of trial case law at this point. What the conspiracy did was simply accelerate a process that might have been inevitable. This is why I'm saying (and Roger Rabbit) that it played a part, even if not the central part.
mumblemumble 5y ago
2 feet of snow on the ground is rare, and I honestly believe that people's worries about walking and biking in the snow are more reflective of a lack of familiarity than any genuine unpleasantness. Nordic countries manage strong bike cultures, too, and don't let winter get in the way of that. I have family in a mountain town in Colorado, and there, the only people using cars to get around town are the tourists, even in winter. This is also how all of America was, not too long ago. My great-grandmother did own a car, but opted instead to ride and walk, year-round, basically until the day she had to move into an old folks' home. Her family's first car was a Model T, and she just never did get in the habit of avoiding the outdoors. Long story short, it's amazing what human bodies can be comfortable with, if only you give them the chance.
- Grazester 5y ago
  Had a friend that rode into school on 23rd Street all the way from Williamsburg Brooklyn. Only snow would stop this guy. Cold or rain couldn't. I thought he was nuts because I would have easily taken the train instead.
- cameronh90 5y ago
  I cycle around London no matter the weather. During the "beast from the East" a few years ago, I found the biggest problem was that any snow sitting on top of our painted white lines seemed to harden. This would mean I'd hit them like they're a kerb and fall off my bike. Grip issues aside, cycling in the snow isn't too bad provided you have decent gloves.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    Yeah, also when raining - I generally just try to avoid painted lines to bike on. It's even worse here in SF with our metal thingies in the road.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    How do you avoid skidding into traffic (or into something else)?
jareklupinski 5y ago
snow day :)
paxys 5y ago
The difference is European cities were established long before cars were a thing, so it's going to be a lot easier for them to go back to that model. American cities were all built around cars being the fundamental mode of transportation.
- ahoy 5y ago
  Thats just not true of NYC, Boston, DC, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and basically every other east coast city
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  > European cities were established long before cars were a thing The small, touristy, beautiful medieval cores of many famous European cities are like this. The vast oceans of newer construction surrounding this core were made in just as much of a car-centric way as in the U.S. Here is the touristy area of Prague: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.0841727,14.4275766,3a,75y,139.34h,101.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sToH5aZwSMq-l_7e-5mjQ7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en https://www.google.com/maps/@50.0841727,14.4275766,3a,75y,13... Here is what a normal street in Prague looks like, outside the tourist area: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.0563622,14.5390901,3a,75y,56.38h,96.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEICJ-TyJfXsqa8xwirVmfw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en https://www.google.com/maps/@50.0563622,14.5390901,3a,75y,56... Here is a touristy part of Rome: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9058174,12.4832519,3a,75y,32.59h,98.44t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-yBrIoutjKX8AIWhVw2Eqg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D-yBrIoutjKX8AIWhVw2Eqg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D57.66976%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9058174,12.4832519,3a,75y,32... Normal street in Rome: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.915433,12.5445313,3a,75y,189.11h,79.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seEU3JjWYDIy1DjtO8YWX-Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en https://www.google.com/maps/@41.915433,12.5445313,3a,75y,189...
- moooo99 5y ago
  This is such a poor excuse. What you mentioned may apply to the comparatively small historic city centers of European city centers, but most certainly not to the decades of new construction during the car time. In fact, many city centers have been specifically re-worked to better accommodate cars as the primary mean of transport. Just look at pictures of Amsterdam in the 1970s [1], long before it became such a bike centric city. It is perfectly possible to do that in other European cities as well as American, especially given the increasing support for such measures. [1] https://twitter.com/radentscheid_s/status/1045772261574299648 https://twitter.com/radentscheid_s/status/104577226157429964...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
brabel 5y ago
> Only problem is with 2 feet of snow on the ground, no one will bike or walk The Scandinavian big cities beg to differ.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
miketery 5y ago
Cars can't drive in 2 feet of snow either. And if you say what about plows? Plows apply to bike lanes and roads - which ideally would be bike / bus / vans only.
kristo 5y ago
I don’t really see how making the vehicles autonomous helps? We could have that future now with normal vehicles if we just disallow them. We don’t need the technocracy to do it.
danny_codes 5y ago
This NotJustBikes video covers this subject nicely. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU Watching his channel has reinforced the dramatically negative impact American transportation policy has had on urban life.
InitialLastName 5y ago
> Only problem is with 2 feet of snow on the ground, no one will bike or walk In the absence of systems for snow removal, most people wouldn't be driving in 2 feet of snow either (yes, some do it, but some people drive in all sorts of reckless circumstances). The cities in the intersection of "viable to thrive without a car" and "get a lot of snow" mostly do a good job of dealing with the latter to preserve the former. They usually clear snow quickly on the thoroughfares, sidewalks and bike lanes and have other solutions (tunnels, non-road transit, etc) for managing the more difficult journeys.
- asdff 5y ago
  I'd say from knowing people who live in boston and chicago the answer is actually mostly not. Especially in boston snowstorms are typically catastrophic and shut down life until they are cleared out which might be quite a long time.
  - jefftk 5y ago
    I live in Boston, and would not describe snowstorms as catastrophes that you just wait out. The plows are out right away, and only every few years is there a blizzard bad enough that they'll require people to stay home.
    - mprovost 5y ago
      I wonder how much this is going to change now that so many people have figured out that they can work from home at least part of the time. First it starts with snowstorms, then maybe we'll see less traffic on rainy days...
  - InitialLastName 5y ago
    I suspect this is a reflection of availability bias; the only snowstorms you hear about from the people you know in Boston are the ones that are catastrophic and shut down life (which do happen occasionally, but the same could be said of hurricanes in Florida).
  - 5y ago
whoknowswhat11 5y ago
I've noticed more an more "environmental" or "green" type politicans and activists seem to be very anti-progress? Has anyone else noticed this? For example, automated cars would allow you to park your car outside of the city, but still have car driving to get places. Get's criticized. Would allow for larger capital investments in cars (batteries etc). Just removing parking alone would free up so much space for either more efficient car transport or additional options (yes, bikes). Auto cars increase sharing opportunities as well. Reducing car ownership. Smaller / safer nuclear power research would be near totally CO2 emission free - but big fights against that or even exploring it - while talking about how serious climate change is? Carbon sequestration, storage, capture, ideas to drive global cooling - all shot down. I've come to think we may end up with a rich group of folks able / willing to invest in stuff creating a sort of second tier society (ie, clean water, air and temp control for them - the rest of us suffering). This path of emissions reductions can't be the only option worth exploring, even while we pursue it, start thinking of other ideas!
- mola 5y ago
  How are automated cars and parking outside the city related? You can park your car outside the city, and use public transport, no self driving technology is required. It's not that that they are against progress, they are against shiny new things that don't make sense. Our need is less cars on the road. Not automated cars available per person in anytime of day. at most this will solve parking, but not congestion.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    An autonomous car can drop you off at the train stop and then go to the parking lot. That's the same mileage as driving to the parking lot and then walking to the train stop but makes the commute far less soul crushing so more people can/will choose it.
    - notahacker 5y ago
      I don't think most people's resistance to using public transport is a two minute walk between the parking lot and the station entrance.
moooo99 5y ago
> Only problem is with 2 feet of snow on the ground, no one will bike or walk and the demand for these vehicles would greatly strain the system. Not sure how you would account for it. Cities like Copenhagen perfectly demonstrate that people are still willing to bike even under harsh weathers. The main think you'd have to ensure in order to keep the use high during winter is to keep the cycling lanes safe by removing the snow within a reasonable time.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > Cities like Copenhagen perfectly demonstrate that people are still willing to bike even under harsh weathers. The main think you'd have to ensure in order to keep the use high during winter is to keep the cycling lanes safe by removing the snow within a reasonable time. Is that the only solution to biking after a snowfall? I've wondered what they do.
- StanislavPetrov 5y ago
  In NYC they can't even remove the garbage, let alone the snow.
addicted 5y ago
In better managed cities, keeping sidewalks and bike lanes free of snow to the point it doesn't bother anyone is not difficult. It doesn't work in NYC, for example, because of, you guessed it, cars...specifically parked cars.
rootusrootus 5y ago
If you can banish cars from cities to the extent you have described, there's not much incentive at that point to try and automate away the drivers. They wouldn't be randos any more, they'd be professionals, and it's going to be a while before automation catches up to the best drivers on the road.
gremloni 5y ago
I dislike public transport purely because I don’t want to travel with all those people around me.

hi5eyes 5y ago

Toronto solved this for the core with an underground mall

spicyramen 5y ago

This may be unrealistic in our life time. I have 2 kids, 1 toddler and 1 newborn, i can't imagine biking, using public transportation or anything similar when going to doctor, grocery shopping, etc.

react_burger38 5y ago
I feel you. Father of 3 here. My two year old always just runs as far as fast as he can pretty much whenever he gets a chance. Won't stay in the stroller either. Putting him in a carseat is much easier. Just went on a flight the other day with the kids and chasing him around the airport wasn't easy, although in the end it was somewhat manageable. Car travel with kids is way easier compared to other methods. We took the kids to Paris a while back and carting the stroller up and down the stairs to the metro was a huge pain.
- couchand 5y ago
  Perhaps your child runs when he gets the chance because he doesn't have enough chances with all the time spent strapped in a car seat or a stroller?
  - spicyramen 5y ago
    You clearly have no kids
saltminer 5y ago
That's because so much of the US is built around suburban sprawl and is incredibly hostile to anyone not in a car. I'd recommend the youtube channel "Not Just Bikes", a guy who moved from Canada to the Netherlands. It's perfectly normal over there to do everything you said is unrealistic. Imagine not having to chaperone your kids around until they're old enough to drive. In much of the US, this is unthinkable, and it takes a large mental toll on parents, but in the Netherlands, it's not uncommon for elementary schoolers to bike to and from school, friends houses, even riding public transit on their own. In much of the US, your kids can be taken by social services for this, even if it was perfectly safe for them to do so. And even if it's legal to let your kids be fairly independent, it doesn't matter when you have to fight to get them back (very much "you can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride"). It's depressing just how far we've fallen under the guise of "protect the children".
- spicyramen 5y ago
  No, that's incorrect I live in Orange county by far one of the best places for bikes and pedestrians and again I can tell you I won't use public transportation.
- duderific 5y ago
  > it's not uncommon for elementary schoolers to bike to and from school, friends houses, even riding public transit on their own. I did all of these things when I was in elementary school in the late 70's, and biking without a helmet no less. Hours and hours with no adult supervision, biking all over town. I even went to an theme park with my sister, without parents when we were 9 and 11 - took multiple buses to get there about an hour from my house. We got lost on the way home and didn't know which bus to get on. Somebody helped us and we were fine. Can you imagine the outrage nowadays if such a thing took place.
jefftk 5y ago
It's definitely possible; if you talk to parents who live in cities they'll generally be happy to describe how they do it. (Raised two kids from 0 to 5y and 7y without a car. Started splitting a car about 6 months ago when we had a third child. Lots of walking, double decker stroller, bus, subway, and bike trailer.)
- shashank 5y ago
  Many things are possible, but I might not like doing them. It's totally fine for someone to not want cars and not use them. But it's too far to say nobody should be using them, no matter what. Not implying you said that (I know you just commented on the "unrealistic" part), but just referring to the general theme here. I personally love driving. Since I was a kid, I always wanted to drive cars and even now, I enjoy the feeling of driving a car. One can argue about whether it's the best mode of transport, etc. but for me (and many like me), it's a pleasure of life. Let's try to stop people from carrying assault weapons before we move to cars?
  - golemiprague 5y ago
    It is not a matter of liking, in major congested cities in Europe or Asia it is impossible to use a car, where are you going to park? The whole city is organised differently. Having experience living in both type of cities I can understand why in a suburban US city you will get so attached to your car, it is basically connected to your freedom to get to places because there is no other way. But when I am in a more congested city with a good public transportation and bike culture, the car just becomes a burden.
  - dropofwill 5y ago
    Cars directly kill 3x the amount of people by firearm homicide (in the US), along with an alarming increase in pedestrian deaths. Not saying we should ban cars everywhere or anything like that, but the status quo is not good enough.
    - shashank 5y ago
      I could have been more clear. The comparison to firearms was more to say it's really hard to stop people from doing things they like and want to do, even if they come at a cost to society. At least cars add to productivity and quality of life, while firearms don't (imo).
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
couchand 5y ago
I have two kids and can't imagine forcing them into a car seat at least twice a day. Our walks around our neighborhood are some of our best time together. On the way to school they get exercise, run into friends, and build their autonomy by leading. We walk to the doctor. We walk to the grocery store. Find yourself a built environment that frees you from the shackles of a car.

addicted 5y ago

An alternative to not allowing cars at all is simply eliminating on street parking. At least in NYC. Get rid of on street parking and traffic will plummet. More importantly, a LOT of space will open up. This is probably true of most American downtowns.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

scoopdewoop 5y ago

If only New York had a series of underground tubes connecting different parts of the cities. We could put trains in those tubes!

curiousllama 5y ago
It does sound kinda wild when you put it that way. Propose that today and I'd be like "what the HN delusions is this?"
- raldi 5y ago
  Let's string wires on poles down every street in the nation and use them to put a device in every home that allows anyone in the world to ring a loud bell at any hour, day or night.
  - dannyw 5y ago
    I was thinking about how crazy this is before realising it's true.
    - danielbln 5y ago
      Still sounds partly crazy to me (German). All those lines on poles in the US, I think the only lines here that are above ground are these super high voltage long distance power lines, anything else is underground (and safe from weather etc.)
      - AlotOfReading 5y ago
        Geology is one reason. Many major urban areas in the western US have a layer of caliche under the surface. Digging through 1m+ of natural concrete makes underground lines even more hideously expensive than they would otherwise be.
  - ruined 5y ago
    pathetic. the real money is if we blanket the planet in radio from high towers and poles, create thousands of types of mostly-incompatible portable wallet-sized devices that provide this ring-a-loud-bell functionality, make them requisite for daily life so everyone must purchase one to the tune of hundreds of dollars per year and keep it on their person, and then create an automated system that randomly rings every device multiple times per day trying to steal money. oh also they spy on everyone constantly and deliver incredibly volatile cognitohazards if you so much as look at them. and we'll move on from this when we develop cheap brain implants that are even worse

rexreed 5y ago

The future you cite is also our past. In the 1930s most large urban cities had plenty of non-car transportation options, including electric-powered or cable-pulled streetcars, overhead-powered electric as well as gas-powered buses, trams, light rail, underground subways (since early 1900s in NYC), and hackneys of all sorts in the US and Europe and many other places around the world. In fact, it was the spread of gas-powered buses that killed much of the electric-powered streetcars in large cities in the US in the 1950s. With the growth of suburbs and loss of streetcars, the growth of cars in city centers grew unchecked as did air pollution and smog.

dantheman 5y ago
I know you like the film roger rabbit, but that's not why trams died.
- rexreed 5y ago
  It's not the entire reason but it's actually a key part of it [0]. Hey Roger Rabbit isn't entirely fiction but all the good parts are :) [0] https://www.planetizen.com/node/76622 https://www.planetizen.com/node/76622
  - jonny_eh 5y ago
    > It's not the entire reason but it's actually a key part of it [0]. I don't see that in your reference. It's a full-on debunking of the claim that it was a conspiracy.
    - rexreed 5y ago
      From the above referenced article: "For the record, there was a conspiracy according to the 1949 U.S. Supreme Court's ruling in UNITED STATES v. NATIONAL CITY LINES, Inc., et al. " and more to the point it actually says it up top in the title part of the article: "Yes, there was a conspiracy led by General Motors to replace streetcars with their buses in the 1930s." I know it was somewhat mingled with the other points in the article, but it was confirmed in a Supreme Court ruling that there was indeed a conspiracy by the National City Lines and others to buy up streetcar lines and close down operations. What the article says is that despite the conspiracy, the industry was already in decline, with the streetcar companies acquired because many were in bankruptcy. And as such, the decline can't be solely and specifically blamed on the conspiracy, which is a matter of trial case law at this point. What the conspiracy did was simply accelerate a process that might have been inevitable. This is why I'm saying (and Roger Rabbit) that it played a part, even if not the central part.

mumblemumble 5y ago

2 feet of snow on the ground is rare, and I honestly believe that people's worries about walking and biking in the snow are more reflective of a lack of familiarity than any genuine unpleasantness. Nordic countries manage strong bike cultures, too, and don't let winter get in the way of that. I have family in a mountain town in Colorado, and there, the only people using cars to get around town are the tourists, even in winter. This is also how all of America was, not too long ago. My great-grandmother did own a car, but opted instead to ride and walk, year-round, basically until the day she had to move into an old folks' home. Her family's first car was a Model T, and she just never did get in the habit of avoiding the outdoors. Long story short, it's amazing what human bodies can be comfortable with, if only you give them the chance.

Grazester 5y ago
Had a friend that rode into school on 23rd Street all the way from Williamsburg Brooklyn. Only snow would stop this guy. Cold or rain couldn't. I thought he was nuts because I would have easily taken the train instead.
cameronh90 5y ago
I cycle around London no matter the weather. During the "beast from the East" a few years ago, I found the biggest problem was that any snow sitting on top of our painted white lines seemed to harden. This would mean I'd hit them like they're a kerb and fall off my bike. Grip issues aside, cycling in the snow isn't too bad provided you have decent gloves.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  Yeah, also when raining - I generally just try to avoid painted lines to bike on. It's even worse here in SF with our metal thingies in the road.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  How do you avoid skidding into traffic (or into something else)?

jareklupinski 5y ago

snow day :)

paxys 5y ago

The difference is European cities were established long before cars were a thing, so it's going to be a lot easier for them to go back to that model. American cities were all built around cars being the fundamental mode of transportation.

ahoy 5y ago
Thats just not true of NYC, Boston, DC, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and basically every other east coast city
rsj_hn 5y ago
> European cities were established long before cars were a thing The small, touristy, beautiful medieval cores of many famous European cities are like this. The vast oceans of newer construction surrounding this core were made in just as much of a car-centric way as in the U.S. Here is the touristy area of Prague: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.0841727,14.4275766,3a,75y,139.34h,101.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sToH5aZwSMq-l_7e-5mjQ7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en https://www.google.com/maps/@50.0841727,14.4275766,3a,75y,13... Here is what a normal street in Prague looks like, outside the tourist area: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.0563622,14.5390901,3a,75y,56.38h,96.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEICJ-TyJfXsqa8xwirVmfw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en https://www.google.com/maps/@50.0563622,14.5390901,3a,75y,56... Here is a touristy part of Rome: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9058174,12.4832519,3a,75y,32.59h,98.44t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-yBrIoutjKX8AIWhVw2Eqg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D-yBrIoutjKX8AIWhVw2Eqg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D57.66976%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9058174,12.4832519,3a,75y,32... Normal street in Rome: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.915433,12.5445313,3a,75y,189.11h,79.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seEU3JjWYDIy1DjtO8YWX-Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en https://www.google.com/maps/@41.915433,12.5445313,3a,75y,189...
moooo99 5y ago
This is such a poor excuse. What you mentioned may apply to the comparatively small historic city centers of European city centers, but most certainly not to the decades of new construction during the car time. In fact, many city centers have been specifically re-worked to better accommodate cars as the primary mean of transport. Just look at pictures of Amsterdam in the 1970s [1], long before it became such a bike centric city. It is perfectly possible to do that in other European cities as well as American, especially given the increasing support for such measures. [1] https://twitter.com/radentscheid_s/status/1045772261574299648 https://twitter.com/radentscheid_s/status/104577226157429964...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

brabel 5y ago

> Only problem is with 2 feet of snow on the ground, no one will bike or walk The Scandinavian big cities beg to differ.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

miketery 5y ago

Cars can't drive in 2 feet of snow either. And if you say what about plows? Plows apply to bike lanes and roads - which ideally would be bike / bus / vans only.

kristo 5y ago

I don’t really see how making the vehicles autonomous helps? We could have that future now with normal vehicles if we just disallow them. We don’t need the technocracy to do it.

danny_codes 5y ago

This NotJustBikes video covers this subject nicely. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU Watching his channel has reinforced the dramatically negative impact American transportation policy has had on urban life.

InitialLastName 5y ago

> Only problem is with 2 feet of snow on the ground, no one will bike or walk In the absence of systems for snow removal, most people wouldn't be driving in 2 feet of snow either (yes, some do it, but some people drive in all sorts of reckless circumstances). The cities in the intersection of "viable to thrive without a car" and "get a lot of snow" mostly do a good job of dealing with the latter to preserve the former. They usually clear snow quickly on the thoroughfares, sidewalks and bike lanes and have other solutions (tunnels, non-road transit, etc) for managing the more difficult journeys.

asdff 5y ago
I'd say from knowing people who live in boston and chicago the answer is actually mostly not. Especially in boston snowstorms are typically catastrophic and shut down life until they are cleared out which might be quite a long time.
- jefftk 5y ago
  I live in Boston, and would not describe snowstorms as catastrophes that you just wait out. The plows are out right away, and only every few years is there a blizzard bad enough that they'll require people to stay home.
  - mprovost 5y ago
    I wonder how much this is going to change now that so many people have figured out that they can work from home at least part of the time. First it starts with snowstorms, then maybe we'll see less traffic on rainy days...
- InitialLastName 5y ago
  I suspect this is a reflection of availability bias; the only snowstorms you hear about from the people you know in Boston are the ones that are catastrophic and shut down life (which do happen occasionally, but the same could be said of hurricanes in Florida).
- 5y ago

whoknowswhat11 5y ago

I've noticed more an more "environmental" or "green" type politicans and activists seem to be very anti-progress? Has anyone else noticed this? For example, automated cars would allow you to park your car outside of the city, but still have car driving to get places. Get's criticized. Would allow for larger capital investments in cars (batteries etc). Just removing parking alone would free up so much space for either more efficient car transport or additional options (yes, bikes). Auto cars increase sharing opportunities as well. Reducing car ownership. Smaller / safer nuclear power research would be near totally CO2 emission free - but big fights against that or even exploring it - while talking about how serious climate change is? Carbon sequestration, storage, capture, ideas to drive global cooling - all shot down. I've come to think we may end up with a rich group of folks able / willing to invest in stuff creating a sort of second tier society (ie, clean water, air and temp control for them - the rest of us suffering). This path of emissions reductions can't be the only option worth exploring, even while we pursue it, start thinking of other ideas!

mola 5y ago
How are automated cars and parking outside the city related? You can park your car outside the city, and use public transport, no self driving technology is required. It's not that that they are against progress, they are against shiny new things that don't make sense. Our need is less cars on the road. Not automated cars available per person in anytime of day. at most this will solve parking, but not congestion.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  An autonomous car can drop you off at the train stop and then go to the parking lot. That's the same mileage as driving to the parking lot and then walking to the train stop but makes the commute far less soul crushing so more people can/will choose it.
  - notahacker 5y ago
    I don't think most people's resistance to using public transport is a two minute walk between the parking lot and the station entrance.

moooo99 5y ago

> Only problem is with 2 feet of snow on the ground, no one will bike or walk and the demand for these vehicles would greatly strain the system. Not sure how you would account for it. Cities like Copenhagen perfectly demonstrate that people are still willing to bike even under harsh weathers. The main think you'd have to ensure in order to keep the use high during winter is to keep the cycling lanes safe by removing the snow within a reasonable time.

wolverine876 5y ago
> Cities like Copenhagen perfectly demonstrate that people are still willing to bike even under harsh weathers. The main think you'd have to ensure in order to keep the use high during winter is to keep the cycling lanes safe by removing the snow within a reasonable time. Is that the only solution to biking after a snowfall? I've wondered what they do.
StanislavPetrov 5y ago
In NYC they can't even remove the garbage, let alone the snow.

addicted 5y ago

In better managed cities, keeping sidewalks and bike lanes free of snow to the point it doesn't bother anyone is not difficult. It doesn't work in NYC, for example, because of, you guessed it, cars...specifically parked cars.

rootusrootus 5y ago

If you can banish cars from cities to the extent you have described, there's not much incentive at that point to try and automate away the drivers. They wouldn't be randos any more, they'd be professionals, and it's going to be a while before automation catches up to the best drivers on the road.

gremloni 5y ago

I dislike public transport purely because I don’t want to travel with all those people around me.