5 ms·

If person's legacy is a list of all the good things (or bad things) they've done during their time, Nat's legacy as the CEO of GitHub can also be summed into a

If person's legacy is a list of all the good things (or bad things) they've done during their time, Nat's legacy as the CEO of GitHub can also be summed into a list. Let me get started...I only remember this one thing but other users of HN can help add more I supposed: - That one time when Nat spoke against DMCA law and said taking down youtube-dl was wrong and he actively pushed for their reinstatement. [1] [1] https://twitter.com/natfriedman/status/1328365679473426432?lang=en https://twitter.com/natfriedman/status/1328365679473426432?l...

Cenk 5y ago
ICE contract?
- junon 5y ago
  IIRC that existed before Nat. I could be wrong.
- Dangeranger 5y ago
  Nat posted publicly on this topic back in 2019 [0]. [0] https://github.blog/2019-10-09-github-and-us-government-developers/ https://github.blog/2019-10-09-github-and-us-government-deve...
  - kylemh 5y ago
    Sure, but ICE is still a customer
    - Dangeranger 5y ago
      Correct. I'm not saying he "fixed" the problem, but that he made his and the companies positions more clear.
    - c5e3ebe93d2c 5y ago
      Could you explain the moral and legal reasoning that necessitates that Github block ICE from using their public services, but also allows them to continue their "Developers should be allowed to user our service" that allows them to defend youtube-dl and usage in Iran?
    - that_guy_iain 5y ago
      I'm sure this is going to get hate but not all of ICE is bad. They're also the guys who go after the super rich crimes. The immigration stuff had such a bad effect on the agency that the money crime people literally asked to be separated so they could get back to hunting money crimes without the stigma of the immigration stuff. [0] Also, immigration control in itself isn't a bad thing. You shouldn't be asking that people stop providing services to a goverment agency. You should demand the goverment agency stops being a bunch of dicks. [0] https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/29/17517870/ice-agents-dhs-break-up-ice https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/29/17517870/i...
outside1234 5y ago
He integrated Github with Microsoft and didn't screw it up. That is quite an accomplishment honestly.
- mmcnl 5y ago
  How is GitHub integrated actually? Honest question. I use GitHub almost daily and I almost forgot MS acquired GitHub.
  - outside1234 5y ago
    It is treated as a separate subsidiary - you have to actually turn in your badge at Microsoft and get a GitHub badge if you go work there.
- abzug 5y ago
  There's plenty of time for this to happen...
  - dzaima 5y ago
    well, not anymore, as he's no longer the CEO. Unless you count that as screwing up (which it might well be)
    - meragrin_ 5y ago
      He is CEO through November 14th.
      - jstummbillig 5y ago
        So you are saying there's still a chance?
- oaiey 5y ago
  I think Microsoft was well aware that they had to run GitHub differently. And then they found the right manager idling around.
b3morales 5y ago
Copilot is still fresh in my mind as a reason to question using GitHub to host my source code. Though I understand that my opinion on this is not universal.
- skeeter2020 5y ago
  unlimited private repos for free if this is a concern?
  - b3morales 5y ago
    I don't entirely trust that they will remain excluded from Copilot in future. This probably isn't the place to re-litigate this discussion, but GitHub's claim is that source licenses simply do not apply to what Copilot ingests. That being the case, the only thing that distinguishes private repos in this context is a thin policy that can be changed at a whim (and perhaps without any announcement). Also, one of the reasons I put my code on a host like GitHub is so that I can share it/show it off*. So using a private repo to avoid Copliot defeats some of the purpose of me using GitHub in the first place. *To the extent anyone else cares, at least ;)
    - toastal 5y ago
      Migrating is a valid option
    - cdrini 5y ago
      I think it's _exceptionally_ unlikely they would use copilot in private repos. Not for licensing issues, but for security issues. People include secrets all the time in private repos. Trying to get an AI that can train on that sort of data, but avoid including these secrets would be a technical nightmare, and they'd get sued as soon a secret inevitably leaked out. And they have no incentive to; there's _plenty_ of data available in public GitHub to make copilot amazing. And they have access to that data in a way no other company does, so competition is going to be waaaays away. Outside of that, I see copilot like the future of search engines. Instead of searching for plain text matches, it lets you search for abstract and complicated patterns. The killer feature for me would be seeing for a given suggestion (or search result), where the suggestion was derived from, linking back to the code snippet in GitHub.
dannyw 5y ago
That youtube-dl moment was a really defining moment for me, particularly as a heavy user of youtube-dl and having contributed a PR here or there. GitHub handled the situation really well, both in terms of the course of action it took, as well as setting up new procedures and a legal fund to prevent future incidents like this. Along with the EFF, they have actively promoted the right of developers (and FOSS) to tinker. I think people don't realise how impactful youtube-dl going the wrong way could be.
- lrvick 5y ago
  That was just for show because it was a brand risk. Similar repos without journalists covering them are still banned without dispute. https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2020/11/2020-11-09-Google.md https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2020/11/2020-11-0...
  - iudqnolq 5y ago
    If you read the response letter the EFF prepared you'll see their argument was that the "rolling cipher" yt-dl worked around was not an actual protection measure. They contrast it with widevine, which is. There's a good legal argument yt-dl was legal in the us, and there isn't for the repo you linked to. I think standing up for things that have a plausible argument that they're legal in the US but not things that aren't is a reasonable line for a corporation to draw.
wil93 5y ago
Made Github available again in Iran [1] [1] https://twitter.com/natfriedman/status/1346517148357648385 https://twitter.com/natfriedman/status/1346517148357648385
Dangeranger 5y ago
Github acquiring[0] and integrating with NPM. [0] https://github.blog/2020-03-16-npm-is-joining-github/ https://github.blog/2020-03-16-npm-is-joining-github/
- notriddle 5y ago
  And dependabot
fnord123 5y ago
Nat has done a great job of embracing the ideals that many if us respect. I look forward to watching Thomas continue to extend Githubs influence in open source and productivity.
- patal 5y ago
  I contacted Thomas several years ago about an Open Source project that he didn't maintain anymore and which I wanted to maintain. He was very cool about it and put maintainership in my hands. I wish him the best of luck, too.
snotrockets 5y ago
I also rememebr how he refused to drop ICE, and tried to treat violations of humans rights as if they were carbon offsets.
lrvick 5y ago
Let's not give -too- much credit here. This only happened after massive public outcry and targeting trolling campaigns exploiting Github design flaws forced them to take a position, and a position of anything other than defense of youtubedl was going to be an expensive reputation hit given all the journalists covering it. Meanwhile similar repos get DMCA banned daily, like when Google demanded they remove all repos using a public widevine decryption key: https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2020/11/2020-11-09-Google.md https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2020/11/2020-11-0... Microsoft is a member of the RIAA so don't expect to see real defense of any repos unless there is major bad press.
laserlight 5y ago
This happened after the fact that EFF and the whole community got involved. See his dismissive attitude to this HN comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24995179 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24995179
pabs3 5y ago
Unfortunately youtube-dl seems to have stopped being worked on since then. Luckily there is a fork though. https://github.com/yt-dlp/yt-dlp https://github.com/yt-dlp/yt-dlp
maqqerone 5y ago
Great post!

Cenk 5y ago

ICE contract?

junon 5y ago
IIRC that existed before Nat. I could be wrong.
Dangeranger 5y ago
Nat posted publicly on this topic back in 2019 [0]. [0] https://github.blog/2019-10-09-github-and-us-government-developers/ https://github.blog/2019-10-09-github-and-us-government-deve...
- kylemh 5y ago
  Sure, but ICE is still a customer
  - Dangeranger 5y ago
    Correct. I'm not saying he "fixed" the problem, but that he made his and the companies positions more clear.
  - c5e3ebe93d2c 5y ago
    Could you explain the moral and legal reasoning that necessitates that Github block ICE from using their public services, but also allows them to continue their "Developers should be allowed to user our service" that allows them to defend youtube-dl and usage in Iran?
  - that_guy_iain 5y ago
    I'm sure this is going to get hate but not all of ICE is bad. They're also the guys who go after the super rich crimes. The immigration stuff had such a bad effect on the agency that the money crime people literally asked to be separated so they could get back to hunting money crimes without the stigma of the immigration stuff. [0] Also, immigration control in itself isn't a bad thing. You shouldn't be asking that people stop providing services to a goverment agency. You should demand the goverment agency stops being a bunch of dicks. [0] https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/29/17517870/ice-agents-dhs-break-up-ice https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/29/17517870/i...

outside1234 5y ago

He integrated Github with Microsoft and didn't screw it up. That is quite an accomplishment honestly.

mmcnl 5y ago
How is GitHub integrated actually? Honest question. I use GitHub almost daily and I almost forgot MS acquired GitHub.
- outside1234 5y ago
  It is treated as a separate subsidiary - you have to actually turn in your badge at Microsoft and get a GitHub badge if you go work there.
abzug 5y ago
There's plenty of time for this to happen...
- dzaima 5y ago
  well, not anymore, as he's no longer the CEO. Unless you count that as screwing up (which it might well be)
  - meragrin_ 5y ago
    He is CEO through November 14th.
    - jstummbillig 5y ago
      So you are saying there's still a chance?
oaiey 5y ago
I think Microsoft was well aware that they had to run GitHub differently. And then they found the right manager idling around.

b3morales 5y ago

Copilot is still fresh in my mind as a reason to question using GitHub to host my source code. Though I understand that my opinion on this is not universal.

skeeter2020 5y ago
unlimited private repos for free if this is a concern?
- b3morales 5y ago
  I don't entirely trust that they will remain excluded from Copilot in future. This probably isn't the place to re-litigate this discussion, but GitHub's claim is that source licenses simply do not apply to what Copilot ingests. That being the case, the only thing that distinguishes private repos in this context is a thin policy that can be changed at a whim (and perhaps without any announcement). Also, one of the reasons I put my code on a host like GitHub is so that I can share it/show it off*. So using a private repo to avoid Copliot defeats some of the purpose of me using GitHub in the first place. *To the extent anyone else cares, at least ;)
  - toastal 5y ago
    Migrating is a valid option
  - cdrini 5y ago
    I think it's _exceptionally_ unlikely they would use copilot in private repos. Not for licensing issues, but for security issues. People include secrets all the time in private repos. Trying to get an AI that can train on that sort of data, but avoid including these secrets would be a technical nightmare, and they'd get sued as soon a secret inevitably leaked out. And they have no incentive to; there's _plenty_ of data available in public GitHub to make copilot amazing. And they have access to that data in a way no other company does, so competition is going to be waaaays away. Outside of that, I see copilot like the future of search engines. Instead of searching for plain text matches, it lets you search for abstract and complicated patterns. The killer feature for me would be seeing for a given suggestion (or search result), where the suggestion was derived from, linking back to the code snippet in GitHub.

dannyw 5y ago

That youtube-dl moment was a really defining moment for me, particularly as a heavy user of youtube-dl and having contributed a PR here or there. GitHub handled the situation really well, both in terms of the course of action it took, as well as setting up new procedures and a legal fund to prevent future incidents like this. Along with the EFF, they have actively promoted the right of developers (and FOSS) to tinker. I think people don't realise how impactful youtube-dl going the wrong way could be.

lrvick 5y ago
That was just for show because it was a brand risk. Similar repos without journalists covering them are still banned without dispute. https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2020/11/2020-11-09-Google.md https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2020/11/2020-11-0...
- iudqnolq 5y ago
  If you read the response letter the EFF prepared you'll see their argument was that the "rolling cipher" yt-dl worked around was not an actual protection measure. They contrast it with widevine, which is. There's a good legal argument yt-dl was legal in the us, and there isn't for the repo you linked to. I think standing up for things that have a plausible argument that they're legal in the US but not things that aren't is a reasonable line for a corporation to draw.

wil93 5y ago

Made Github available again in Iran [1] [1] https://twitter.com/natfriedman/status/1346517148357648385 https://twitter.com/natfriedman/status/1346517148357648385

Dangeranger 5y ago

Github acquiring[0] and integrating with NPM. [0] https://github.blog/2020-03-16-npm-is-joining-github/ https://github.blog/2020-03-16-npm-is-joining-github/

notriddle 5y ago
And dependabot

fnord123 5y ago

Nat has done a great job of embracing the ideals that many if us respect. I look forward to watching Thomas continue to extend Githubs influence in open source and productivity.

patal 5y ago
I contacted Thomas several years ago about an Open Source project that he didn't maintain anymore and which I wanted to maintain. He was very cool about it and put maintainership in my hands. I wish him the best of luck, too.

snotrockets 5y ago

I also rememebr how he refused to drop ICE, and tried to treat violations of humans rights as if they were carbon offsets.

lrvick 5y ago

Let's not give -too- much credit here. This only happened after massive public outcry and targeting trolling campaigns exploiting Github design flaws forced them to take a position, and a position of anything other than defense of youtubedl was going to be an expensive reputation hit given all the journalists covering it. Meanwhile similar repos get DMCA banned daily, like when Google demanded they remove all repos using a public widevine decryption key: https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2020/11/2020-11-09-Google.md https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2020/11/2020-11-0... Microsoft is a member of the RIAA so don't expect to see real defense of any repos unless there is major bad press.

laserlight 5y ago

This happened after the fact that EFF and the whole community got involved. See his dismissive attitude to this HN comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24995179 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24995179

pabs3 5y ago

Unfortunately youtube-dl seems to have stopped being worked on since then. Luckily there is a fork though. https://github.com/yt-dlp/yt-dlp https://github.com/yt-dlp/yt-dlp

maqqerone 5y ago

Great post!