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> Crypto-mining apologists will point to figures that say "crypto-mining uses mostly renewable energy". Which is a shit take anyway because that means that non

> Crypto-mining apologists will point to figures that say "crypto-mining uses mostly renewable energy". Which is a shit take anyway because that means that non-renewable energy (plus the renewable energy non-consumed by the miners) is now more expensive for everyone else, it's the basic law of supply and demand. And in the process those miners are also making non-renewable energy a more desirable investment because it now returns more money to those who invest in it (because of said increased prices people are now forced to pay for said non-renewable energy).

cletus 5y ago
It's sad that this gets downvoted because you're not wrong eg [1][2][3]. [1]: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2284222-coal-powered-bitcoin-mining-soars-in-kazakhstan-following-chinese-ban/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2284222-coal-powered-bi... [2]: https://fortune.com/2021/04/20/bitcoin-mining-coal-china-environment-pollution/ https://fortune.com/2021/04/20/bitcoin-mining-coal-china-env... [3]: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/09/old-coal-plant-is-now-mining-bitcoin-for-a-utility-company/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/09/old-coal-plant-i...
- latchkey 5y ago
  China has banned mining. Update cause I'm getting down voted: the point is that the quoted articles are talking about China and are therefore outdated. I'm not referring to what is happening today with regards to the movement of mining. _Some_ miners moved to Kazakhstan, but the truth is, they went global.
  - LurkingPenguin 5y ago
    Did you read any of the articles? China banned mining. Chinese miners moved to Kazakhstan. Now Kazakhstan is having power shortages.
    - latchkey 5y ago
      Apparently you didn't fully read the article. The shortages aren't the miners, it is the fact that 3 plants shut down... "On October 15, the national grid operator, KEGOC, announced electricity rationing after three major coal-fired power plants shut down. KEGOC did not directly blame miners, but it used language similar to the energy minister’s and said it was cutting off customers who “over-consume.”"
      - LurkingPenguin 5y ago
        > KEGOC did not directly blame miners, but it used language similar to the energy minister’s and said it was cutting off customers who “over-consume.” And: > "We have seen that our [country's] electricity consumption has literally increased by 7 percent in one year. That's a very big increase," Energy Minister Magzum Mirzagaliyev said on September 30, noting that consumption usually grows by about 2 percent per annum. > Mirzagaliyev linked the demand to mining and proposed the government limit supplies of electricity to 1 MW per mining farm and to 100 MW for the whole sector. Where's the mystery here? Again, hopefully for the last time: China banned mining. Chinese miners moved to Kazakhstan. Now Kazakhstan is having power shortages.
        latchkey 5y ago
        > China banned mining. Chinese miners moved to Kazakhstan. Now Kazakhstan is having power shortages. We wouldn't be reading about power shortages at all if 3 major power plants didn't go offline.
        malermeister 5y ago
        We also wouldn't be reading about them if crypto people didnt increase power draw by 7%.
bobcostas55 5y ago
Energy is not fungible. Just because you have electricity in place A doesn't mean you can get it to place B in a cost-effective way, so mining next to, say, a hydro station with spare capacity (where electricity is cheap) doesn't necessarily have any impact at all elsewhere.
- bryanlarsen 5y ago
  What an odd take, given that electricity is almost the poster definition of fungible. Sure there are transmission losses, but they are very minor. It's not perfectly fungible, but nothing in the real world is, everything has some sort of shipping costs. I can't think of anything more fungible than electricity except for virtual items like dollars.
  - SAWZALL 5y ago
    THANK YOU! Finally, someone with a fully functioning brain cell.
- eldaisfish 5y ago
  What you must also mention is that electricity is a finite resource. Consuming electrical energy - even at a hydro power station - means the energy you used isn't delivered to somewhere else.
  - mr_spothawk 5y ago
    is electricity finite? i don't think so. you might say that the grid can only support a certain load at a some given time, but obviously more energy could be provided. in any case, i think it's silly to concern ourselves with (specifically Bitcoin's) energy consumption, as it's tiny compared to the efficiency gains that are realized elsewhere as a result of bitcoin's adoption.
    - quickthrowman 5y ago
      Yes, electricity is finite. Just because you could add more power generation doesn’t mean it’s infinite, c’mon now.
nathias 5y ago
so crypto doesn't count for supply and demand or what are you saying?
njarboe 5y ago
If big crypto-mining syndacates start using small scale nuclear (as some have shown interest in doing) to be carbon neutral, they could be on the vangaurd of proving out the technology and be a net positive in the medium to long term. They really want low, consistent prices for electricity. Hydro gives them that but nuclear could also. Solar and wind do not.
- consumer451 5y ago
  > If big crypto-mining syndacates start using small scale nuclear... Any volunteers for living in the exclusion zones?
  - floatingatoll 5y ago
    Seems fine to me. I already have nuclear irradiated genes, I'm sterile, and I prefer nature for company over human beings. (If you were sarcastically implying that no one would volunteer, you are mistaken. I encourage making your point more clearly and with less sarcasm, since a worthwhile discussion is possible if you do so.)
    - consumer451 5y ago
      I would like to add that I do take your point on sarcasm. Thank you.
    - consumer451 5y ago
      I was a bit sarcastic, but the effects on real estate values alone prevent many from wanting to live near a plant. The sarcasm came from the crypto part. The idea that swaths of US land would be devalued for the latest crypto pump and dump project makes me laugh and die inside. I mean Solana is actually pretty cool. But all other crypto projects of which I am aware do not add value to our species as a whole. So adding nuclear power to the mix, for which the total cost of ownership is not even calculable? Just wow.
      - floatingatoll 5y ago

cletus 5y ago

It's sad that this gets downvoted because you're not wrong eg [1][2][3]. [1]: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2284222-coal-powered-bitcoin-mining-soars-in-kazakhstan-following-chinese-ban/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2284222-coal-powered-bi... [2]: https://fortune.com/2021/04/20/bitcoin-mining-coal-china-environment-pollution/ https://fortune.com/2021/04/20/bitcoin-mining-coal-china-env... [3]: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/09/old-coal-plant-is-now-mining-bitcoin-for-a-utility-company/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/09/old-coal-plant-i...

latchkey 5y ago
China has banned mining. Update cause I'm getting down voted: the point is that the quoted articles are talking about China and are therefore outdated. I'm not referring to what is happening today with regards to the movement of mining. _Some_ miners moved to Kazakhstan, but the truth is, they went global.
- LurkingPenguin 5y ago
  Did you read any of the articles? China banned mining. Chinese miners moved to Kazakhstan. Now Kazakhstan is having power shortages.
  - latchkey 5y ago
    Apparently you didn't fully read the article. The shortages aren't the miners, it is the fact that 3 plants shut down... "On October 15, the national grid operator, KEGOC, announced electricity rationing after three major coal-fired power plants shut down. KEGOC did not directly blame miners, but it used language similar to the energy minister’s and said it was cutting off customers who “over-consume.”"
    - LurkingPenguin 5y ago
      > KEGOC did not directly blame miners, but it used language similar to the energy minister’s and said it was cutting off customers who “over-consume.” And: > "We have seen that our [country's] electricity consumption has literally increased by 7 percent in one year. That's a very big increase," Energy Minister Magzum Mirzagaliyev said on September 30, noting that consumption usually grows by about 2 percent per annum. > Mirzagaliyev linked the demand to mining and proposed the government limit supplies of electricity to 1 MW per mining farm and to 100 MW for the whole sector. Where's the mystery here? Again, hopefully for the last time: China banned mining. Chinese miners moved to Kazakhstan. Now Kazakhstan is having power shortages.
      - latchkey 5y ago
        > China banned mining. Chinese miners moved to Kazakhstan. Now Kazakhstan is having power shortages. We wouldn't be reading about power shortages at all if 3 major power plants didn't go offline.
        malermeister 5y ago
        We also wouldn't be reading about them if crypto people didnt increase power draw by 7%.

bobcostas55 5y ago

Energy is not fungible. Just because you have electricity in place A doesn't mean you can get it to place B in a cost-effective way, so mining next to, say, a hydro station with spare capacity (where electricity is cheap) doesn't necessarily have any impact at all elsewhere.

bryanlarsen 5y ago
What an odd take, given that electricity is almost the poster definition of fungible. Sure there are transmission losses, but they are very minor. It's not perfectly fungible, but nothing in the real world is, everything has some sort of shipping costs. I can't think of anything more fungible than electricity except for virtual items like dollars.
- SAWZALL 5y ago
  THANK YOU! Finally, someone with a fully functioning brain cell.
eldaisfish 5y ago
What you must also mention is that electricity is a finite resource. Consuming electrical energy - even at a hydro power station - means the energy you used isn't delivered to somewhere else.
- mr_spothawk 5y ago
  is electricity finite? i don't think so. you might say that the grid can only support a certain load at a some given time, but obviously more energy could be provided. in any case, i think it's silly to concern ourselves with (specifically Bitcoin's) energy consumption, as it's tiny compared to the efficiency gains that are realized elsewhere as a result of bitcoin's adoption.
  - quickthrowman 5y ago
    Yes, electricity is finite. Just because you could add more power generation doesn’t mean it’s infinite, c’mon now.

nathias 5y ago

so crypto doesn't count for supply and demand or what are you saying?

njarboe 5y ago

If big crypto-mining syndacates start using small scale nuclear (as some have shown interest in doing) to be carbon neutral, they could be on the vangaurd of proving out the technology and be a net positive in the medium to long term. They really want low, consistent prices for electricity. Hydro gives them that but nuclear could also. Solar and wind do not.

consumer451 5y ago
> If big crypto-mining syndacates start using small scale nuclear... Any volunteers for living in the exclusion zones?
- floatingatoll 5y ago
  Seems fine to me. I already have nuclear irradiated genes, I'm sterile, and I prefer nature for company over human beings. (If you were sarcastically implying that no one would volunteer, you are mistaken. I encourage making your point more clearly and with less sarcasm, since a worthwhile discussion is possible if you do so.)
  - consumer451 5y ago
    I would like to add that I do take your point on sarcasm. Thank you.
  - consumer451 5y ago
    I was a bit sarcastic, but the effects on real estate values alone prevent many from wanting to live near a plant. The sarcasm came from the crypto part. The idea that swaths of US land would be devalued for the latest crypto pump and dump project makes me laugh and die inside. I mean Solana is actually pretty cool. But all other crypto projects of which I am aware do not add value to our species as a whole. So adding nuclear power to the mix, for which the total cost of ownership is not even calculable? Just wow.
    - floatingatoll 5y ago