5 ms·

That statement feels like a Tesla FSD announcement. I think Wayland people started to claim that before most Linux desktops even had a working replacement for a

by josefx 5y ago

That statement feels like a Tesla FSD announcement. I think Wayland people started to claim that before most Linux desktops even had a working replacement for any of the hundreds of things like screenshots, copy paste, etc. that where build into X11 but stripped out of Wayland.

5e92cb50239222b 5y ago
What "Wayland people"? You probably mean the former Xorg developers who shifted to full time Wayland development long ago. Xorg is on life support, it has been getting bug fixes and nothing else for the past several years. From reading the sibling comment, if BSD guys want to keep using Xorg, they'll probably have to maintain it themselves.
- josefx 5y ago
  > Xorg is on life support, it has been getting bug fixes and nothing else for the past several years. Imagine two cars: X11 its an old one, it doesn't quite start right, the windows are chipped, the paint is peeling of and no one really wants to invest money into maintaining it, it defaults to brakes and a steering wheel from 1980 but has seen continous upgrades over time and you can generally swap in a steering wheel from 2010 with minor problems. Now imagine wayland, a brand new tesla, it doesn't have brakes or a steering wheel because history has shown that these concepts evolve and if anything it should be a third party provider that creates them. Who cares that it took ten years between the release of the car as ready for use and the first compatible steering wheel implementation? Who cares that getting it to run on half of the roads (NVIDIA) is still not a solved problem because they stripped out any abstraction. > From reading the sibling comment, if BSD guys want to keep using Xorg, they'll probably have to maintain it themselves. As opposed to wayland which pushed 90% of features on the KDE/GOME/etc. guys (to be reimplemented in dozens of incompatible APIs). Of course the people who wrote wayland also wrote X11 so removing themselves from the equation might have been the nicest thing they ever did, given their own opinion of their past work on X11.
  - Arnavion 5y ago
    >Who cares that getting it to run on half of the roads (NVIDIA) is still not a solved problem because they stripped out any abstraction. a) nvidia's refusal to implement GBM in their driver was their own choice. The abstraction was never removed; GBM is the abstraction over all drivers. b) nvidia already relented and implemented GBM in their driver. The latter doesn't necessarily mean nvidia is a good choice of GPU even now, because it requires a proprietary driver, so compositor / Mesa / kernel devs cannot debug the full stack when anything goes wrong. So having your problems ignored is something you'll have to get used to if you choose to use hardware that requires proprietary drivers, regardless of whether you use it with X or wayland. >As opposed to wayland which pushed 90% of features on the KDE/GOME/etc. guys (to be reimplemented in dozens of incompatible APIs). wlroots exists to solve that problem. Whether an individual compositor decides to use it or not is up to the compositor. At least in KDE's case, wlroots did not exist at the time they added Wayland support so of course it's understandable that they don't use it. There's a fork of kwin that uses wlroots ( https://gitlab.com/kwinft/kwinft https://gitlab.com/kwinft/kwinft ) but I believe it's just an experimental one-person effort rather than anything that kwin devs are working on as a replacement.
    - torginus 5y ago
      Afaik the Steam Deck will use KWinFT, so if Valve is willing to bet on it, I don't think it's such a fringe project.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - josefx 5y ago
      > So having your problems ignored is something you'll have to get used to if you choose to use hardware that requires proprietary drivers 3..2..1 and the floss copy pasta has arrived a bit delayed but still as expected. Might want to check if the server your bot is running on is a bit overcapacity to fix that delay. Still not going to amputate my leg over a stubbed toe even if RMS considers the toe cancer. > GBM is the abstraction over all drivers. One that never worked with half the hardware on the market, an issue that wasn't visible to anyone using X11.
- Zababa 5y ago
  > Xorg is on life support, it has been getting bug fixes and nothing else for the past several years I don't think life support is appropriate here. It still works well.
- usrwl 5y ago
  FYI there are crowdfunding efforts to keep Xorg maintained https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29034479 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29034479 . The recipient is the current X server maintainer so it's likely this is the best way to help keeping Xorg maintained.
  - ddingus 5y ago
    Cool. I will push the money their way. I believe in multi-user graphical Computing, and I'd hate to see it go.
    - md8z 5y ago
      It hasn't gone, it has just moved to other places, i.e. the web browser. In my opinion, X is a failed experiment, we know now that there are better ways to do things.
      - ddingus 5y ago
        The web browser is not multi-user graphical computing. And that is not a negative about web browsers or all the things we're doing with them. Just to be clear.
        md8z 5y ago
        I would be interested to know why you think that, is this website not a multi-user graphical thing running on a computer? Edit: Also I'm pretty confused as to why anyone refers to X as "multi-user", are you talking about multi-pointer X? That doesn't really have anything to do with X in particular and is also possible in Wayland.
        ddingus 5y ago
        Well, on an X window display, I could have: Fonts from one machine Window management from another An application running on yet another, with it's program data sourced from yet another machine accessing data on still another machine. All of which is displayed on another machine also supplying user input. Or, I could do something crazy like put a window on your display, with appropriate permission of course, and you could interact with it. A big wall type display could take windows from a number of users. The promise back then, and something I used a lot, an many still do use today, is being able to run something and display it somewhere else. Say my cellphone is on my desk. I could ask it to do something for me, and the window into that activity appears on the display like any other window does. Another case might be several users running on one machine each with their own displays and inputs. Here is a real world case: High end CAD software, managed data, many users. With X, one can make a big application server and that is not visible to users at all in terms of the application or data to be manipulated. Users run the program via X, running X servers on anything they want. PC, Mac, Linux, whatever. The only way to interact with the managed data is through the application. One copy of the application, one data repository, many users. With X doing that kind of thing is easy, and it works whether one user runs the app on their local machine attached to a shared data repository, or many users run on a remote machine perhaps that machine itself also holding the data repository.
- 0x_rs 5y ago
  While it's supposed to be "maintenance only", it got a very important addition recently (but not a definitive solution by any means) that helps with dreaded multiscreen setups, AsyncFlipSecondaries.

by josefx 5y ago

5e92cb50239222b 5y ago

What "Wayland people"? You probably mean the former Xorg developers who shifted to full time Wayland development long ago. Xorg is on life support, it has been getting bug fixes and nothing else for the past several years. From reading the sibling comment, if BSD guys want to keep using Xorg, they'll probably have to maintain it themselves.

josefx 5y ago
> Xorg is on life support, it has been getting bug fixes and nothing else for the past several years. Imagine two cars: X11 its an old one, it doesn't quite start right, the windows are chipped, the paint is peeling of and no one really wants to invest money into maintaining it, it defaults to brakes and a steering wheel from 1980 but has seen continous upgrades over time and you can generally swap in a steering wheel from 2010 with minor problems. Now imagine wayland, a brand new tesla, it doesn't have brakes or a steering wheel because history has shown that these concepts evolve and if anything it should be a third party provider that creates them. Who cares that it took ten years between the release of the car as ready for use and the first compatible steering wheel implementation? Who cares that getting it to run on half of the roads (NVIDIA) is still not a solved problem because they stripped out any abstraction. > From reading the sibling comment, if BSD guys want to keep using Xorg, they'll probably have to maintain it themselves. As opposed to wayland which pushed 90% of features on the KDE/GOME/etc. guys (to be reimplemented in dozens of incompatible APIs). Of course the people who wrote wayland also wrote X11 so removing themselves from the equation might have been the nicest thing they ever did, given their own opinion of their past work on X11.
- Arnavion 5y ago
  >Who cares that getting it to run on half of the roads (NVIDIA) is still not a solved problem because they stripped out any abstraction. a) nvidia's refusal to implement GBM in their driver was their own choice. The abstraction was never removed; GBM is the abstraction over all drivers. b) nvidia already relented and implemented GBM in their driver. The latter doesn't necessarily mean nvidia is a good choice of GPU even now, because it requires a proprietary driver, so compositor / Mesa / kernel devs cannot debug the full stack when anything goes wrong. So having your problems ignored is something you'll have to get used to if you choose to use hardware that requires proprietary drivers, regardless of whether you use it with X or wayland. >As opposed to wayland which pushed 90% of features on the KDE/GOME/etc. guys (to be reimplemented in dozens of incompatible APIs). wlroots exists to solve that problem. Whether an individual compositor decides to use it or not is up to the compositor. At least in KDE's case, wlroots did not exist at the time they added Wayland support so of course it's understandable that they don't use it. There's a fork of kwin that uses wlroots ( https://gitlab.com/kwinft/kwinft https://gitlab.com/kwinft/kwinft ) but I believe it's just an experimental one-person effort rather than anything that kwin devs are working on as a replacement.
  - torginus 5y ago
    Afaik the Steam Deck will use KWinFT, so if Valve is willing to bet on it, I don't think it's such a fringe project.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - josefx 5y ago
    > So having your problems ignored is something you'll have to get used to if you choose to use hardware that requires proprietary drivers 3..2..1 and the floss copy pasta has arrived a bit delayed but still as expected. Might want to check if the server your bot is running on is a bit overcapacity to fix that delay. Still not going to amputate my leg over a stubbed toe even if RMS considers the toe cancer. > GBM is the abstraction over all drivers. One that never worked with half the hardware on the market, an issue that wasn't visible to anyone using X11.
Zababa 5y ago
> Xorg is on life support, it has been getting bug fixes and nothing else for the past several years I don't think life support is appropriate here. It still works well.
usrwl 5y ago
FYI there are crowdfunding efforts to keep Xorg maintained https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29034479 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29034479 . The recipient is the current X server maintainer so it's likely this is the best way to help keeping Xorg maintained.
- ddingus 5y ago
  Cool. I will push the money their way. I believe in multi-user graphical Computing, and I'd hate to see it go.
  - md8z 5y ago
    It hasn't gone, it has just moved to other places, i.e. the web browser. In my opinion, X is a failed experiment, we know now that there are better ways to do things.
    - ddingus 5y ago
      The web browser is not multi-user graphical computing. And that is not a negative about web browsers or all the things we're doing with them. Just to be clear.
      - md8z 5y ago
        I would be interested to know why you think that, is this website not a multi-user graphical thing running on a computer? Edit: Also I'm pretty confused as to why anyone refers to X as "multi-user", are you talking about multi-pointer X? That doesn't really have anything to do with X in particular and is also possible in Wayland.
        ddingus 5y ago
        Well, on an X window display, I could have: Fonts from one machine Window management from another An application running on yet another, with it's program data sourced from yet another machine accessing data on still another machine. All of which is displayed on another machine also supplying user input. Or, I could do something crazy like put a window on your display, with appropriate permission of course, and you could interact with it. A big wall type display could take windows from a number of users. The promise back then, and something I used a lot, an many still do use today, is being able to run something and display it somewhere else. Say my cellphone is on my desk. I could ask it to do something for me, and the window into that activity appears on the display like any other window does. Another case might be several users running on one machine each with their own displays and inputs. Here is a real world case: High end CAD software, managed data, many users. With X, one can make a big application server and that is not visible to users at all in terms of the application or data to be manipulated. Users run the program via X, running X servers on anything they want. PC, Mac, Linux, whatever. The only way to interact with the managed data is through the application. One copy of the application, one data repository, many users. With X doing that kind of thing is easy, and it works whether one user runs the app on their local machine attached to a shared data repository, or many users run on a remote machine perhaps that machine itself also holding the data repository.
0x_rs 5y ago
While it's supposed to be "maintenance only", it got a very important addition recently (but not a definitive solution by any means) that helps with dreaded multiscreen setups, AsyncFlipSecondaries.