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I don't understand this line of reasoning since it assumes inclusion training actually promotes inclusion. My experience has been that it usually means racial/g

I don't understand this line of reasoning since it assumes inclusion training actually promotes inclusion. My experience has been that it usually means racial/gender intersectionalism training that everyone gets to swallow regardless of culture or belief because it's what white people in the us tech industry are passionate about right now.

deanCommie 5y ago
I mean yeah if your culture or belief involves not treating people of different races or genders equitably, then the goal of the training isn't to change your mind. Swallow, follow, or get out of the way.
ygjb 5y ago
Yes. The expectation isn't that you actually adopt or accept the values. The expectation is that you know that if you fail to do so (and you lack sufficient privilege in your organization), then you will be held accountable. Practically speaking "woke" people would prefer to work with people who share values, but most of us will settle for people who can at least emulate a decent human being while interacting with other people at work.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  Being "woke" goes beyond just being a decent person though, because most people's metric for decency is interpersonal decency. My understanding is that the sociological concepts that go into "wokeness" include intersectional analysis, microaggression theory, critical theory, 3rd wave feminism, gender theory etc. I think these ideas are mostly good (with the exception of microaggression theory), but they go way beyond "just be decent to other people" and into the territory of deep academic and systemic mindsets that are far from the default in the individualist West (and especially the US). I mean damn, half these ideas are French, and France is pretty culturally different from the US, French academia even moreso. For example: not being racist on an individual level is pretty intuitive and obvious to most people, and mostly comes down to being a decent human being. Being institutionally anti-racist is a totally different thing, and way more involving, because you're not just not being a dick to people of a different race; you're trying to counteract systemic disadvantages.
  - _3u10 5y ago
    It also presupposes such systemic disadvantages exist. Not sure why so many people from other countries immigrate to places that are so obviously systemically biased against them. Or why when institutions such as Harvard actually do systemically discriminate against Asians it’s routinely ignored by the woke crowd. Can anyone explain to me why Asians despite having some of the highest scores and GPAs have the lowest rate of admissions to some of the wokest institutions in America? Why is the difference in incarceration rate between men and women or the police shooting rate not presented as systemic discrimination?
    - judge2020 5y ago
      > It also presupposes such systemic disadvantages exist. But it would be incorrect to presuppose that absolutely none exist, which is why they have a culture of reviewing and examining such a possibility.
      - _3u10 5y ago
        Of course. I think the vast vast majority of people abhor racism and discrimination in the US and Canada yet our countries are described by the woke as bastions of this kind of thought when the vast majority of the evidence points to it being two of the most welcoming and accepting of differences.
        cto_of_antifa 5y ago
        Even if true, that's definitionally unrelated to whether or not systemix racism exists or not. It just means that you've personally defined some ambiguous bar of entry for whether or not you think marginalized voices require honest thought.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - eru 5y ago
      > Can anyone explain to me why Asians despite having some of the highest scores and GPAs have the lowest rate of admissions to some of the wokest institutions in America? You mean they have some of the lowest rates of admission when corrected for GPA? Or lowest rates in some absolute sense? > Why is the difference in incarceration rate between men and women or the police shooting rate not presented as systemic discrimination? https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AcceptableTargets https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AcceptableTarget...

deanCommie 5y ago

I mean yeah if your culture or belief involves not treating people of different races or genders equitably, then the goal of the training isn't to change your mind. Swallow, follow, or get out of the way.

ygjb 5y ago

Yes. The expectation isn't that you actually adopt or accept the values. The expectation is that you know that if you fail to do so (and you lack sufficient privilege in your organization), then you will be held accountable. Practically speaking "woke" people would prefer to work with people who share values, but most of us will settle for people who can at least emulate a decent human being while interacting with other people at work.

beaconstudios 5y ago
Being "woke" goes beyond just being a decent person though, because most people's metric for decency is interpersonal decency. My understanding is that the sociological concepts that go into "wokeness" include intersectional analysis, microaggression theory, critical theory, 3rd wave feminism, gender theory etc. I think these ideas are mostly good (with the exception of microaggression theory), but they go way beyond "just be decent to other people" and into the territory of deep academic and systemic mindsets that are far from the default in the individualist West (and especially the US). I mean damn, half these ideas are French, and France is pretty culturally different from the US, French academia even moreso. For example: not being racist on an individual level is pretty intuitive and obvious to most people, and mostly comes down to being a decent human being. Being institutionally anti-racist is a totally different thing, and way more involving, because you're not just not being a dick to people of a different race; you're trying to counteract systemic disadvantages.
- _3u10 5y ago
  It also presupposes such systemic disadvantages exist. Not sure why so many people from other countries immigrate to places that are so obviously systemically biased against them. Or why when institutions such as Harvard actually do systemically discriminate against Asians it’s routinely ignored by the woke crowd. Can anyone explain to me why Asians despite having some of the highest scores and GPAs have the lowest rate of admissions to some of the wokest institutions in America? Why is the difference in incarceration rate between men and women or the police shooting rate not presented as systemic discrimination?
  - judge2020 5y ago
    > It also presupposes such systemic disadvantages exist. But it would be incorrect to presuppose that absolutely none exist, which is why they have a culture of reviewing and examining such a possibility.
    - _3u10 5y ago
      Of course. I think the vast vast majority of people abhor racism and discrimination in the US and Canada yet our countries are described by the woke as bastions of this kind of thought when the vast majority of the evidence points to it being two of the most welcoming and accepting of differences.
      - cto_of_antifa 5y ago
        Even if true, that's definitionally unrelated to whether or not systemix racism exists or not. It just means that you've personally defined some ambiguous bar of entry for whether or not you think marginalized voices require honest thought.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - eru 5y ago
    > Can anyone explain to me why Asians despite having some of the highest scores and GPAs have the lowest rate of admissions to some of the wokest institutions in America? You mean they have some of the lowest rates of admission when corrected for GPA? Or lowest rates in some absolute sense? > Why is the difference in incarceration rate between men and women or the police shooting rate not presented as systemic discrimination? https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AcceptableTargets https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AcceptableTarget...