14 ms·

Tesla opens charging network to other EVs for the first time

137 points by davweb 5y ago

londons_explore 5y ago
When we see pricing for non-Teslas, we'll see how they're trading off keeping the network a competitive advantage... Is it $10/kWh 'premium charging' or is it $0.10/kWh 'encourage EV's pricing'.
- crishoj 5y ago
  Tesla will be charging other EVs around €0.60 per kWh, or €0.24 per kWh with a €13 per month subscription. This is only slightly higher than what Tesla owners are charged, arguably to cover the additional overhead. Also, it's competitive: The comparative fast-charger network Ionity charges €0.79 per kWh, or €0.35 kWh with a €17.99 subscription.
  - toyg 5y ago
    These subscriptions have to die, if we want to really replace ICEs. It would be nice if companies did it on their own, because otherwise we'll see the EU Commission step in yet again - and it will.
    - afarrell 5y ago
      Why do the subscriptions have to die? Companies have monthly recurring payroll costs—it makes sense to have monthly recurring revenue too. Also, it makes monthly budgeting easier for individuals.
      - ThunderSizzle 5y ago
        What gas station requires a subscription to buy aside from Costco or Sam's club? Until these EVs can match the convenience of gas, there isn't a point to get one. Especially since batteries are a huge tax on resources as it is.
      - toyg 5y ago
        Does Shell charge for a subscription to get some fuel at their stations...? Don't they have fixed costs too? And let's not make up excuses that patronize consumers; they can budget fine for fuel, they will do the same for electricity. The more we stop this parasitical "subscription for everything" model, the better.
        olex 5y ago
        Actually yes, Shell offers a subscription model that gets you a discount on fuel prices (you get the "premium" V-Power at the cost of "standard" Super fuel), at least in Germany - it's called the "V-Power Smart Deal".
        toyg 5y ago
        And it's entirely optional. Which is how it should be. So no, they don't require a subscription to fuel up. It's just a loyalty scheme.
        reissbaker 5y ago
        ...Okay, and the same is true of Tesla. You don't need a monthly subscription, you can pay as you go; the optional subscription gives you discounted pricing. It's just a loyalty scheme.
        toyg 5y ago
        So I can pull up at any Tesla station and just charge, without giving them my details?
      - londons_explore 5y ago
        Because it severely reduces the quality of service received by the user. If I have a subscription to Walmart which gives me half price food in return for $50/month, you can bet I'll always be shopping there. That means I'll usually drive further for food, have less selection, and will be far less likely to switch to another grocery store. When many stores have a subscription model, they can start to creep prices up for non-subscribers, and before long grocery shopping starts to look like cable internet or phone plans. I can't 'just switch to AT&T for a few minutes to see if it's faster'! Endgame:. "36 month Walmart Grocery Plus for $50/month. Early termination charge: $1800. For just $25/month extra, you can also shop at other Walmart locations."
        schmorptron 5y ago
        Just like the Amazon Prime strategy then
        toyg 5y ago
        Yep, and Amazon are not good guys.
      - Nextgrid 5y ago
        Gas stations (which are way more complex & expensive to operate than unattended electric charging points) manage just fine without subscriptions though.
      - _puk 5y ago
        It sounds similar to the current "standing charge" you get on UK household energy bills (don't know about the rest of Europe). Even if you don't use any electricity you still pay a day rate (on most tariffs). What I'd hate to see long term is if the subscription remains tied to a single supplier (i.e. I pay my subscription to Tesla, but use Ionic to charge, so pay the subscription charge and the higher rate). That will mean the decision to use a different charge point still has repercussions, and prevents the openness of the infrastructure we (society at large if we're moving full electric) really need.
        toyg 5y ago
        > It sounds similar to the current "standing charge" One of the great things mobile phones did for society was the PAYG model. It lowered costs for consumers and allowed to onboard even people with atypical cashflows, who might have otherwise struggled to afford monthly contracts. It was a great democratization of access, and that should be the model to pay for services. Sadly, companies of all size prefer monthly "standing charges" because they make it much easier to fleece consumers by making them pay even if they don't use the service - and if you miss a payment, they can add further charges on top, increasing the abuse. Even mobile companies now make it harder and harder to get true no-strings PAYG accounts.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - hef19898 5y ago
        Because it makes EVs a closed system of kinds. Compared to ICEs, where I can get fuel at any station just using my credit or debit card, no subscription needed. All there exists, where I live at least, are bonus programs and cooperations that give you some price reductions. Subscriptions like those for EV charging a only there to create a kind of lock in, a lock in that has the potential to slow down EV sales.
      - LinuxBender 5y ago
        Not speaking for others but my personal goal is to only use cash 90% of the time, maybe more. I am not quite there yet but I want to delete all my dependencies on banks and online systems. I am currently still depending on Amazon for some items and that is what is mostly holding me back. I will hold onto my ICE vehicle as long as I can or until cash slots on charging terminals has been sorted as well as entirely offline EV's exist. Cash works fine at the car wash.
        nurbel 5y ago
        I'm curious: What do you get on Amazon that you can't get an equivalent for in a physical store?
        LinuxBender 5y ago
        Note: I live in the outskirts of a tiny town. I am intentionally in the middle of nowhere. - Beds and bed frames. Locally beds are marked up 1000%+ over the same bed I can get online. There is only one store. - Protein drinks. I can buy out the local stores monthly/quarterly stock in one day. They are currently having issues getting my drinks. There is only one grocery store and people come from a neighboring state to shop there. - Shelves. In fairness the local hardware store does have some shelves. I wanted steel shelves that can hold a lot of weight. They have the RubberMade shelves that don't meet my needs. I could weld some myself but the cost of steel is really high right now. - Amino acids, Enzymes, High Quality Vitamins, Mastic Gum, Berberine, Garlic Extract, misc other molecules. The vitamins sold in grocery stores are not only low quality, but actually a cancer risk with vitamin E being the prime example. Males should never take alpha-tocopherol without a balance of gamma-tocopherol and selenium less risking prostate cancer. There are a myriad of other examples in this area. Convincing grocery store chains to carry the higher quality molecules is a herculean effort. When the cost of wood and steel come down I will be building a double-insulated geo-thermal greenhouse and will start producing some of my own molecules, but not all of them. - Inverters, charge controllers. - Medical supplies. I am trained as a first responder and have to be ready for family and neighbor emergencies. The local store only has what one would find in a grocery store. - Radio equipment. CB HP/FRS, scanners, HAM, etc... - Computer equipment. This is a no-win for me. Not only are there no local stores for this but Amazon has burnt me multiple times. Buying computer equipment on Amazon is a huge gamble. I could continue listing things for a long time but it's easier to list what I could get locally.
      - thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
        It creates captive audience, which is a gateway to further anti-competitive and abusive market practices
      - capableweb 5y ago
        Most utilities and physical retail doesn't have monthly recurring revenue, it's all driven by demand. Yes, some of them have additional plans/subscriptions you can get involved in, but most of their revenue comes from one-off payments and they seem to do just fine, what about Tesla makes them special?
  - petra 5y ago
    Nicely done. Subscription pricing a commodity. That's a nice way to lock users.
  - tpmx 5y ago
    https://tm3een.home.blog/2021/06/06/kwh-prices-at-european-tesla-superchargers-20210606/ https://tm3een.home.blog/2021/06/06/kwh-prices-at-european-t... claims the price for Tesla owners is €0.25 per kWh in NL. Ionity is an outlier with its extreme pricing.
ZeljkoS 5y ago
Great news! EV infrastructure in EU is incredibly fragmented. Nice that Tesla chargers are becoming accessible, but we still have fragmentation of apps and charging subscriptions/accounts (Tesla app/account is another one you need to have): https://svedic.org/tech/daddy-did-you-really-need-electric-car https://svedic.org/tech/daddy-did-you-really-need-electric-c...
launchiterate 5y ago
this might be the AWS equivalent of Tesla.
ohgodplsno 5y ago
Actual title: Tesla had to respect standards set by the european commission and is doing this because they are legally ordered to.
- dabeeeenster 5y ago
  What standards?
  - oblio 5y ago
    > The Combined Charging System allows AC charging using the Type 1 and Type 2 connector depending on the geographical region. Since 2014 the European Union has required the provision of Type 2 or Combo 2 within the European electric vehicle network. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System
    - jungturk 5y ago
      As is mentioned elsewhere, this standard mandates a connector and does not require the charger to be open to all vehicles. Tesla certainly may be anticipating further actions in the future to require that, but there are no requirements to open the Supercharger network today.
- mehrdada 5y ago
  Did the government force them to sell their electricity to other EVs? AFAIK the CCS connector is forced which had been shipping for a while. Allowing other EVs to charge seems to be business choice.
  - JrProgrammer 5y ago
    I'm happy we don't let the building/access of infrastructure to companies only and instead let them work something out with the government/EU. In a country where space is not abundant, it would be hell to search through multiple proprietary stations to find the right charger.
wodenokoto 5y ago
> ... as the world's most valuable carmaker looks to bring electric vehicles into the mainstream. Didn't the EU tell them they had to?
- crishoj 5y ago
  Yes, but that doesn't exclude the possibility that Tesla had plans to open up the charging network at some point anyway.
  - gostsamo 5y ago
    Well, we have a control site, a.k.a the US. Do they open it there?
    - crishoj 5y ago
      We'll see. I for one believe opening up the network will lure more customers into the Tesla fold. At the moment though, Tesla's bottleneck is still ramping up production, not landing new orders.
      - gostsamo 5y ago
        If their network is underutilized, they have an interest to open it. If their goal is to build a walled garden, they will not open it. So far the latter hypothesis matches the observations better.
        oblio 5y ago
        Especially considering everything they do with their software + their very harsh anti-repair perspective.
    - svet_0 5y ago
      It's not a good control since there are other differences between US and EU, most notably charging connectors standards and chargers per cars (US superchargers are more crowded than EU on average).
gadnuk 5y ago
"standardized charging cable connectors are mandatory in Europe" That's why it's opening it up first in the EU. Source: https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/1/22757159/tesla-supercharge-ev-pilot-netherlands https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/1/22757159/tesla-supercharg...
- rvz 5y ago
  I see, thanks for the source. Also in the reuters article: > Tesla uses the CCS standard in Europe, allowing a wide range of cars to charge in stations without an adapter that uses a similar connector. That also explains the announcement first in Europe as well.
- Reason077 5y ago
  Tesla converted their chargers to use the standard charging connector in Europe (CCS) several years ago. But while any CCS vehicle was technically capable of plugging in to Tesla's CCS superchargers, until now only Tesla vehicles could charge there because the supercharger's software would recognise a non-Tesla vehicle and not allow it to charge. There isn't a mandate that requires charging stations must be public and available to all vehicles. However, by converting the supercharger network into an open charging network, Tesla should be eligible to bid for government funding for charger network expansion, which was not available to a Tesla-exclusive charging network.
  - mrtksn 5y ago
    Apparently, EU made CCS compulsory for the Electric vehicle charging network since 2014[0]. It's not really a happy accident but a regulation that went well. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System
    - llampx 5y ago
      And this article is exactly why it shows that it made so much sense. With one software update, so many more chargers came online for all EVs in Europe, that could not happen in the US where Teslas use a special plug.
kar1181 5y ago
One benefit of Tesla (for Tesla inc) opening up their charging network is it provides less incentive for other providers to create new charging points. Tesla have plenty incentive as they are by far the dominant charging provider currently and can continue to expand potentially realising a monopoly on charging infrastructure. If they end up with such a huge lead over the patchwork of competitors then it’s going to give them loads of leverage.
- jillesvangurp 5y ago
  They get to leverage their early investment here. It's not going to be a loss leading enterprise either. Which is why there will be more players. Most highway fueling stations, if they haven't already, will be installing charging infrastructure. Likewise for malls, super markets, any commercial operation with parking lots basically. This will be demand driven rather than opportunistic. But it will happen nonetheless.
  - victorbojica 5y ago
    I'm on the fence about this. On one hand this would be a new revenue stream (even if a small one). On the other hand, fuelling stations installing chargers might be seen as cannibalizing their own market. I think there will be some time until we see those unfortunately. They will probably be the last to do it.
    - lamchob 5y ago
      I Think esp. fuelling stations along high-ways will improve their charging infrastructure. A lot of their revenue is non-food stuff like coffee and snacks. And longer wait times during charging could lead to more revenue there.
    - wongarsu 5y ago
      Electric charging stations might drive a lot of traffic for restaurants or shops integrated into the highway station due to the charging time.
    - deleted 5y ago
crishoj 5y ago
Statement from Tesla: https://www.tesla.com/support/non-tesla-supercharging https://www.tesla.com/support/non-tesla-supercharging
VBprogrammer 5y ago
For there next trick perhaps the EU can ban all payment networks, apps and anything which isn't waving a contactless card in front of the machine to pay for the electricity. Maybe they could also increase the reliability 10 fold by making them default to giving away free electricity if it can't contact the providers services, I refuse to believe that the core electrical pieces of a car charger are anywhere near as unreliable as the infrastructure people keep throwing up in front of it.
- crishoj 5y ago
  Germany has legislation coming into effect in 2023 requiring credit/debit card readers on all new EV chargers: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/new-ev-chargers-germany-must-be-equipped-debit-credit-card-readers https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/new-ev-chargers-germany...
  - arlcode 5y ago
    IIRC that only requires an nfc capable credit card reader so still "waving a card in front of the machine".
    - martin_a 5y ago
      Which is fine. Buy (electric) fuel like you'd buy a bread. Good news, looking forward to that as it will simplify electric mobility furthermore.
      - dewey 5y ago
        > Which is fine. Buy (electric) fuel like you'd buy a bread. Are you implying you are able to can use a card to pay in a German bakery?
        martin_a 5y ago
        Yes! As others have mentioned, Covid was a huuuuuuge boost for the acceptance of cashless payment systems in Germany. Even small business now have card readers and don't raise an eye when you want to pay 7,83 by card. If anything good came out of Covid it might be this.
crishoj 5y ago
I welcome this development. It may both benefit Tesla with free marketing and further the transition to EVs in general. In practical terms, expect to see some challenges reaching the charging port on non-Tesla vehicles...
corporateshil1 5y ago
Smells like big oil owns the rails again. Does anyone here know why we dont have Chevy/Ford/BMW/Honda gas stations? And we are repeating thia history because? $, new generation of greed didn't get theirs yet. What a clown show
mnd999 5y ago
Surprised it took so long. As a big player in the EV market, the expansion of that market generally benefits them and this will help that.
blitzar 5y ago
Reminds me a bit of when apple opened mobile apps to outside developers ... and thus an industry was born.
doh 5y ago
I long believed that Tesla should test out concept of charging stations, modeled after gas stations. Once they figure out the best design, structure and business, they should then franchise it to small operators. It’s going to be good business for operators as Tesla owners are in the high earn/spend bracket and it will allow Tesla to significantly expand its brand’s footprint (not that they need it) while reinforcing the perception that driving Tesla is more superior to other experiences (even if it might not be true). The incremental revenue from franchises is also nice. And it would allow Tesla to deploy more batteries and solar panels.
- pornel 5y ago
  The ideal model isn't like a gas station. It's not even a 1:1 replacement of refueling model. Some gas station usage disappears entirely due to at-home charging and destination charging (i.e. opportunistically wherever the car is parked). You simply don't visit a special place to charge. Remaining usages are for longer-range road trips, which are already served adequately by bigger service stations along highways. The rest is for users who don't have at-home charger and need a 45-minute weekly charge, but for this the ideal model is not a charger with a gas-station like shop, but a mall that happens to have chargers.
  - doh 5y ago
    I agree with your analysis of the charging needs but not with your conclusions. > the ideal model is not a charger with a gas-station like shop, but a mall that happens to have chargers. I own few Teslas for last decade or so. Last year took a trip with wife across the Pacific Northwest. The mall concept is extremely annoying because it's the most congested area of the city. Gas station model is superior for road trips, as one needs a place to stop, use restroom, stretch legs, grab coffee/bite. What we experienced were chargers in middle of nowhere with no services or ones in parking lots of hotels and malls. Malls were crowded and hard to get into. Hotels were angry that we are using their services. Empty lots were, well, empty.
    - pornel 5y ago
_ph_ 5y ago
This is interesting news. First of all, it is good news, if the Tesla locations become available to other car brands as well. But it is probably also pointing to a change in the Tesla company strategy. So far, superchargers were built to enable long-distance travel with Tesla cars and consequently sell more cars. Tesla recently opened up a large factory for superchargers in China. It looks to me as if they could be entering the business of providing public charging as an individual profit center. Being able to mass manufacture the charging installations, they could have a huge cost advantage, and the superchargers are known to work very well in general. And of course the superchargers keep being a benefit to all Tesla owners.
- wazoox 5y ago
  Tesla chargers are head and shoulders over their competitors in Europe. There are more of them, they are in better shape overall, they are more powerful, and I'm pretty confident that they work better. Plus so far Tesla is way cheaper than its competitors, so much that is probably can undercut them on price too. This looks like an easy disruption...
wffurr 5y ago
If this comes to the US, will we need an adapter for CCS equipped cars or will Tesla add CCS cables to superchargers?

137 points by davweb 5y ago

When we see pricing for non-Teslas, we'll see how they're trading off keeping the network a competitive advantage... Is it $10/kWh 'premium charging' or is it $0.10/kWh 'encourage EV's pricing'.

crishoj 5y ago
Tesla will be charging other EVs around €0.60 per kWh, or €0.24 per kWh with a €13 per month subscription. This is only slightly higher than what Tesla owners are charged, arguably to cover the additional overhead. Also, it's competitive: The comparative fast-charger network Ionity charges €0.79 per kWh, or €0.35 kWh with a €17.99 subscription.
- toyg 5y ago
  These subscriptions have to die, if we want to really replace ICEs. It would be nice if companies did it on their own, because otherwise we'll see the EU Commission step in yet again - and it will.
  - afarrell 5y ago
    Why do the subscriptions have to die? Companies have monthly recurring payroll costs—it makes sense to have monthly recurring revenue too. Also, it makes monthly budgeting easier for individuals.
    - ThunderSizzle 5y ago
      What gas station requires a subscription to buy aside from Costco or Sam's club? Until these EVs can match the convenience of gas, there isn't a point to get one. Especially since batteries are a huge tax on resources as it is.
    - toyg 5y ago
      Does Shell charge for a subscription to get some fuel at their stations...? Don't they have fixed costs too? And let's not make up excuses that patronize consumers; they can budget fine for fuel, they will do the same for electricity. The more we stop this parasitical "subscription for everything" model, the better.
      - olex 5y ago
        Actually yes, Shell offers a subscription model that gets you a discount on fuel prices (you get the "premium" V-Power at the cost of "standard" Super fuel), at least in Germany - it's called the "V-Power Smart Deal".
        toyg 5y ago
        And it's entirely optional. Which is how it should be. So no, they don't require a subscription to fuel up. It's just a loyalty scheme.
        reissbaker 5y ago
        ...Okay, and the same is true of Tesla. You don't need a monthly subscription, you can pay as you go; the optional subscription gives you discounted pricing. It's just a loyalty scheme.
        toyg 5y ago
        So I can pull up at any Tesla station and just charge, without giving them my details?
    - londons_explore 5y ago
      Because it severely reduces the quality of service received by the user. If I have a subscription to Walmart which gives me half price food in return for $50/month, you can bet I'll always be shopping there. That means I'll usually drive further for food, have less selection, and will be far less likely to switch to another grocery store. When many stores have a subscription model, they can start to creep prices up for non-subscribers, and before long grocery shopping starts to look like cable internet or phone plans. I can't 'just switch to AT&T for a few minutes to see if it's faster'! Endgame:. "36 month Walmart Grocery Plus for $50/month. Early termination charge: $1800. For just $25/month extra, you can also shop at other Walmart locations."
      - schmorptron 5y ago
        Just like the Amazon Prime strategy then
        toyg 5y ago
        Yep, and Amazon are not good guys.
    - Nextgrid 5y ago
      Gas stations (which are way more complex & expensive to operate than unattended electric charging points) manage just fine without subscriptions though.
    - _puk 5y ago
      It sounds similar to the current "standing charge" you get on UK household energy bills (don't know about the rest of Europe). Even if you don't use any electricity you still pay a day rate (on most tariffs). What I'd hate to see long term is if the subscription remains tied to a single supplier (i.e. I pay my subscription to Tesla, but use Ionic to charge, so pay the subscription charge and the higher rate). That will mean the decision to use a different charge point still has repercussions, and prevents the openness of the infrastructure we (society at large if we're moving full electric) really need.
      - toyg 5y ago
        > It sounds similar to the current "standing charge" One of the great things mobile phones did for society was the PAYG model. It lowered costs for consumers and allowed to onboard even people with atypical cashflows, who might have otherwise struggled to afford monthly contracts. It was a great democratization of access, and that should be the model to pay for services. Sadly, companies of all size prefer monthly "standing charges" because they make it much easier to fleece consumers by making them pay even if they don't use the service - and if you miss a payment, they can add further charges on top, increasing the abuse. Even mobile companies now make it harder and harder to get true no-strings PAYG accounts.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - hef19898 5y ago
      Because it makes EVs a closed system of kinds. Compared to ICEs, where I can get fuel at any station just using my credit or debit card, no subscription needed. All there exists, where I live at least, are bonus programs and cooperations that give you some price reductions. Subscriptions like those for EV charging a only there to create a kind of lock in, a lock in that has the potential to slow down EV sales.
    - LinuxBender 5y ago
      Not speaking for others but my personal goal is to only use cash 90% of the time, maybe more. I am not quite there yet but I want to delete all my dependencies on banks and online systems. I am currently still depending on Amazon for some items and that is what is mostly holding me back. I will hold onto my ICE vehicle as long as I can or until cash slots on charging terminals has been sorted as well as entirely offline EV's exist. Cash works fine at the car wash.
      - nurbel 5y ago
        I'm curious: What do you get on Amazon that you can't get an equivalent for in a physical store?
        LinuxBender 5y ago
        Note: I live in the outskirts of a tiny town. I am intentionally in the middle of nowhere. - Beds and bed frames. Locally beds are marked up 1000%+ over the same bed I can get online. There is only one store. - Protein drinks. I can buy out the local stores monthly/quarterly stock in one day. They are currently having issues getting my drinks. There is only one grocery store and people come from a neighboring state to shop there. - Shelves. In fairness the local hardware store does have some shelves. I wanted steel shelves that can hold a lot of weight. They have the RubberMade shelves that don't meet my needs. I could weld some myself but the cost of steel is really high right now. - Amino acids, Enzymes, High Quality Vitamins, Mastic Gum, Berberine, Garlic Extract, misc other molecules. The vitamins sold in grocery stores are not only low quality, but actually a cancer risk with vitamin E being the prime example. Males should never take alpha-tocopherol without a balance of gamma-tocopherol and selenium less risking prostate cancer. There are a myriad of other examples in this area. Convincing grocery store chains to carry the higher quality molecules is a herculean effort. When the cost of wood and steel come down I will be building a double-insulated geo-thermal greenhouse and will start producing some of my own molecules, but not all of them. - Inverters, charge controllers. - Medical supplies. I am trained as a first responder and have to be ready for family and neighbor emergencies. The local store only has what one would find in a grocery store. - Radio equipment. CB HP/FRS, scanners, HAM, etc... - Computer equipment. This is a no-win for me. Not only are there no local stores for this but Amazon has burnt me multiple times. Buying computer equipment on Amazon is a huge gamble. I could continue listing things for a long time but it's easier to list what I could get locally.
    - thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
      It creates captive audience, which is a gateway to further anti-competitive and abusive market practices
    - capableweb 5y ago
      Most utilities and physical retail doesn't have monthly recurring revenue, it's all driven by demand. Yes, some of them have additional plans/subscriptions you can get involved in, but most of their revenue comes from one-off payments and they seem to do just fine, what about Tesla makes them special?
- petra 5y ago
  Nicely done. Subscription pricing a commodity. That's a nice way to lock users.
- tpmx 5y ago
  https://tm3een.home.blog/2021/06/06/kwh-prices-at-european-tesla-superchargers-20210606/ https://tm3een.home.blog/2021/06/06/kwh-prices-at-european-t... claims the price for Tesla owners is €0.25 per kWh in NL. Ionity is an outlier with its extreme pricing.

ZeljkoS 5y ago

Great news! EV infrastructure in EU is incredibly fragmented. Nice that Tesla chargers are becoming accessible, but we still have fragmentation of apps and charging subscriptions/accounts (Tesla app/account is another one you need to have): https://svedic.org/tech/daddy-did-you-really-need-electric-car https://svedic.org/tech/daddy-did-you-really-need-electric-c...

launchiterate 5y ago

this might be the AWS equivalent of Tesla.

ohgodplsno 5y ago

Actual title: Tesla had to respect standards set by the european commission and is doing this because they are legally ordered to.

dabeeeenster 5y ago
What standards?
- oblio 5y ago
  > The Combined Charging System allows AC charging using the Type 1 and Type 2 connector depending on the geographical region. Since 2014 the European Union has required the provision of Type 2 or Combo 2 within the European electric vehicle network. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System
  - jungturk 5y ago
    As is mentioned elsewhere, this standard mandates a connector and does not require the charger to be open to all vehicles. Tesla certainly may be anticipating further actions in the future to require that, but there are no requirements to open the Supercharger network today.
mehrdada 5y ago
Did the government force them to sell their electricity to other EVs? AFAIK the CCS connector is forced which had been shipping for a while. Allowing other EVs to charge seems to be business choice.
- JrProgrammer 5y ago
  I'm happy we don't let the building/access of infrastructure to companies only and instead let them work something out with the government/EU. In a country where space is not abundant, it would be hell to search through multiple proprietary stations to find the right charger.

wodenokoto 5y ago

> ... as the world's most valuable carmaker looks to bring electric vehicles into the mainstream. Didn't the EU tell them they had to?

crishoj 5y ago
Yes, but that doesn't exclude the possibility that Tesla had plans to open up the charging network at some point anyway.
- gostsamo 5y ago
  Well, we have a control site, a.k.a the US. Do they open it there?
  - crishoj 5y ago
    We'll see. I for one believe opening up the network will lure more customers into the Tesla fold. At the moment though, Tesla's bottleneck is still ramping up production, not landing new orders.
    - gostsamo 5y ago
      If their network is underutilized, they have an interest to open it. If their goal is to build a walled garden, they will not open it. So far the latter hypothesis matches the observations better.
      - oblio 5y ago
        Especially considering everything they do with their software + their very harsh anti-repair perspective.
  - svet_0 5y ago
    It's not a good control since there are other differences between US and EU, most notably charging connectors standards and chargers per cars (US superchargers are more crowded than EU on average).

gadnuk 5y ago

"standardized charging cable connectors are mandatory in Europe" That's why it's opening it up first in the EU. Source: https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/1/22757159/tesla-supercharge-ev-pilot-netherlands https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/1/22757159/tesla-supercharg...

rvz 5y ago
I see, thanks for the source. Also in the reuters article: > Tesla uses the CCS standard in Europe, allowing a wide range of cars to charge in stations without an adapter that uses a similar connector. That also explains the announcement first in Europe as well.
Reason077 5y ago
Tesla converted their chargers to use the standard charging connector in Europe (CCS) several years ago. But while any CCS vehicle was technically capable of plugging in to Tesla's CCS superchargers, until now only Tesla vehicles could charge there because the supercharger's software would recognise a non-Tesla vehicle and not allow it to charge. There isn't a mandate that requires charging stations must be public and available to all vehicles. However, by converting the supercharger network into an open charging network, Tesla should be eligible to bid for government funding for charger network expansion, which was not available to a Tesla-exclusive charging network.
- mrtksn 5y ago
  Apparently, EU made CCS compulsory for the Electric vehicle charging network since 2014[0]. It's not really a happy accident but a regulation that went well. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System
  - llampx 5y ago
    And this article is exactly why it shows that it made so much sense. With one software update, so many more chargers came online for all EVs in Europe, that could not happen in the US where Teslas use a special plug.

kar1181 5y ago

One benefit of Tesla (for Tesla inc) opening up their charging network is it provides less incentive for other providers to create new charging points. Tesla have plenty incentive as they are by far the dominant charging provider currently and can continue to expand potentially realising a monopoly on charging infrastructure. If they end up with such a huge lead over the patchwork of competitors then it’s going to give them loads of leverage.

jillesvangurp 5y ago
They get to leverage their early investment here. It's not going to be a loss leading enterprise either. Which is why there will be more players. Most highway fueling stations, if they haven't already, will be installing charging infrastructure. Likewise for malls, super markets, any commercial operation with parking lots basically. This will be demand driven rather than opportunistic. But it will happen nonetheless.
- victorbojica 5y ago
  I'm on the fence about this. On one hand this would be a new revenue stream (even if a small one). On the other hand, fuelling stations installing chargers might be seen as cannibalizing their own market. I think there will be some time until we see those unfortunately. They will probably be the last to do it.
  - lamchob 5y ago
    I Think esp. fuelling stations along high-ways will improve their charging infrastructure. A lot of their revenue is non-food stuff like coffee and snacks. And longer wait times during charging could lead to more revenue there.
  - wongarsu 5y ago
    Electric charging stations might drive a lot of traffic for restaurants or shops integrated into the highway station due to the charging time.
  - deleted 5y ago

crishoj 5y ago

Statement from Tesla: https://www.tesla.com/support/non-tesla-supercharging https://www.tesla.com/support/non-tesla-supercharging

VBprogrammer 5y ago

For there next trick perhaps the EU can ban all payment networks, apps and anything which isn't waving a contactless card in front of the machine to pay for the electricity. Maybe they could also increase the reliability 10 fold by making them default to giving away free electricity if it can't contact the providers services, I refuse to believe that the core electrical pieces of a car charger are anywhere near as unreliable as the infrastructure people keep throwing up in front of it.

crishoj 5y ago
Germany has legislation coming into effect in 2023 requiring credit/debit card readers on all new EV chargers: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/new-ev-chargers-germany-must-be-equipped-debit-credit-card-readers https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/new-ev-chargers-germany...
- arlcode 5y ago
  IIRC that only requires an nfc capable credit card reader so still "waving a card in front of the machine".
  - martin_a 5y ago
    Which is fine. Buy (electric) fuel like you'd buy a bread. Good news, looking forward to that as it will simplify electric mobility furthermore.
    - dewey 5y ago
      > Which is fine. Buy (electric) fuel like you'd buy a bread. Are you implying you are able to can use a card to pay in a German bakery?
      - martin_a 5y ago
        Yes! As others have mentioned, Covid was a huuuuuuge boost for the acceptance of cashless payment systems in Germany. Even small business now have card readers and don't raise an eye when you want to pay 7,83 by card. If anything good came out of Covid it might be this.

crishoj 5y ago

I welcome this development. It may both benefit Tesla with free marketing and further the transition to EVs in general. In practical terms, expect to see some challenges reaching the charging port on non-Tesla vehicles...

corporateshil1 5y ago

Smells like big oil owns the rails again. Does anyone here know why we dont have Chevy/Ford/BMW/Honda gas stations? And we are repeating thia history because? $, new generation of greed didn't get theirs yet. What a clown show

mnd999 5y ago

Surprised it took so long. As a big player in the EV market, the expansion of that market generally benefits them and this will help that.

blitzar 5y ago

Reminds me a bit of when apple opened mobile apps to outside developers ... and thus an industry was born.

doh 5y ago

I long believed that Tesla should test out concept of charging stations, modeled after gas stations. Once they figure out the best design, structure and business, they should then franchise it to small operators. It’s going to be good business for operators as Tesla owners are in the high earn/spend bracket and it will allow Tesla to significantly expand its brand’s footprint (not that they need it) while reinforcing the perception that driving Tesla is more superior to other experiences (even if it might not be true). The incremental revenue from franchises is also nice. And it would allow Tesla to deploy more batteries and solar panels.

pornel 5y ago
The ideal model isn't like a gas station. It's not even a 1:1 replacement of refueling model. Some gas station usage disappears entirely due to at-home charging and destination charging (i.e. opportunistically wherever the car is parked). You simply don't visit a special place to charge. Remaining usages are for longer-range road trips, which are already served adequately by bigger service stations along highways. The rest is for users who don't have at-home charger and need a 45-minute weekly charge, but for this the ideal model is not a charger with a gas-station like shop, but a mall that happens to have chargers.
- doh 5y ago
  I agree with your analysis of the charging needs but not with your conclusions. > the ideal model is not a charger with a gas-station like shop, but a mall that happens to have chargers. I own few Teslas for last decade or so. Last year took a trip with wife across the Pacific Northwest. The mall concept is extremely annoying because it's the most congested area of the city. Gas station model is superior for road trips, as one needs a place to stop, use restroom, stretch legs, grab coffee/bite. What we experienced were chargers in middle of nowhere with no services or ones in parking lots of hotels and malls. Malls were crowded and hard to get into. Hotels were angry that we are using their services. Empty lots were, well, empty.
  - pornel 5y ago

_ph_ 5y ago

This is interesting news. First of all, it is good news, if the Tesla locations become available to other car brands as well. But it is probably also pointing to a change in the Tesla company strategy. So far, superchargers were built to enable long-distance travel with Tesla cars and consequently sell more cars. Tesla recently opened up a large factory for superchargers in China. It looks to me as if they could be entering the business of providing public charging as an individual profit center. Being able to mass manufacture the charging installations, they could have a huge cost advantage, and the superchargers are known to work very well in general. And of course the superchargers keep being a benefit to all Tesla owners.

wazoox 5y ago
Tesla chargers are head and shoulders over their competitors in Europe. There are more of them, they are in better shape overall, they are more powerful, and I'm pretty confident that they work better. Plus so far Tesla is way cheaper than its competitors, so much that is probably can undercut them on price too. This looks like an easy disruption...

wffurr 5y ago

If this comes to the US, will we need an adapter for CCS equipped cars or will Tesla add CCS cables to superchargers?