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This argument is old and useless now. It is a ponzi if you are ideologically inclined to believe it is a ponzi, and people will keep handwaving around it. Each

This argument is old and useless now. It is a ponzi if you are ideologically inclined to believe it is a ponzi, and people will keep handwaving around it. Each generation chooses its bubbles. The younger generations have been told in no uncertain terms that they are locked out of investment in real estate and many other instruments that are controlled by the aging generations. So they create their own bubbles and they will keep supporting them because every generation wants to achieve some level of wealth. People keep underestimating the intrinsic value of bitcoin as a store of wealth and a means to devalue the unequal economy. Many things look like ponzi but are not, because they never burst. People putting themselves outside the bitcoin bubble are willinging missing the future.

richardanaya 5y ago
There's no doubt there's money to be made, but fundamentally bitcoin represents a threat to the existing power's ability to control financial markets. I see so many people hoping that they'l give that power up .. and then we have a nation like China go and ban crypto and EU legislating it like crazy. I'm sure crypto will exist in the future, to me the big question will be how painful will a government make it for you to own crypto.
arcticbull 5y ago
I'm sure glad you didn't work at SEC Enforcement when they finally went after Madoff. > The younger generations have been told in no uncertain terms that they are locked out of investment in real estate and many other instruments that are controlled by the aging generations. Sure, so they should petition for zoning reform not engage in Ponzi schemes. > Many things look like ponzi but are not, because they never burst. That's not really the definition, though. > People putting themselves outside the bitcoin bubble are willinging missing the future. The definition of the "future" isn't "Ponzi scheme that will never burst probably, because real estate is unfair."
- cblconfederate 5y ago
  > Sure, so they should petition for zoning reform not engage in Ponzi schemes. Demographically, post-boomer generations can never win the vote Voice does not work in this case, so they choose exit I guess they are also sick and tired being told what they "should" do
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    > Demographically, post-boomer generations can never win the vote You don't think the "boomers" will die? > I guess they are also sick and tired being told what they "should" do Petulance isn't a value proposition either.
    - cblconfederate 5y ago
      now that sounds like a boomer opinion ;) The size of that generation and the great increase in lifespan ensures that "boomers" will stay dominant longer than any other. Millenials don't want to wait until they 're 50 to start making wealth
      - arcticbull 5y ago
        > now that sounds like a boomer opinion ;) I'm a median millennial. > The size of that generation and the great increase in lifespan ensures that "boomers" will stay dominant longer than any other. I didn't realize wealth made you live longer. It actually doesn't by the way, it's not particularly correlated after a certain point. Charts available on request. > Millenials don't want to wait until they 're 50 to start making wealth. Good news is they're not. Adjusted for inflation they're exactly on track with previous cohorts. [1] But Ponzi schemes do not create wealth. Crypto redistributes wealth from new participants to old ones, and miners/validators, while not creating any value. [1] https://economistwritingeveryday.files.wordpress.com/2021/08/image-7.png https://economistwritingeveryday.files.wordpress.com/2021/08...
        cblconfederate 5y ago
        I don't believe your graph https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/12/03/precariousness-modern-young-adulthood-one-chart/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/12/03/precariou... i never said their wealth made them live longer, science did
qeternity 5y ago
> So they create their own bubbles and they will keep supporting them because every generation wants to achieve some level of wealth. You are talking about things like equity and real estate which have actual utility. Sure they might be overpriced now, I agree with that. But their prices are backstopped by the utility they provide. A lot of crypto does not have any utility and never will. Nobody is supporting the beanie baby bubble or the tulip bubble. The idea that bubbles are not just ok, but should be encouraged, is very troubling.
- sparkie 5y ago
  Bitcoin has utility; it separates money from the State. If that's not useful, I don't know what is. When the State deliberately debases its own currency year on year, and suddenly there is a useful option for saving, which nobody can debase, then it has provided something quite profound. And this is also why it is unlike any other 'bubble'. Whenever the perceived value of an asset increases quickly, many people scramble to produce more of that asset in order to take advantage of the higher prices. This overproduction then leads to prices dropping, or the bubble popping. What makes bitcoin different, is no matter how much work they put in to create more bitcoin, they cannot release more than the amount that was pre-determined for that ~10 minute period. The supply of bitcoin is completely decoupled from its demand. There has never been a 'bubble' in history with this property.
  - takeda 5y ago
    That was true initially, but because of its price it became impractical as a currency. People are now only buying it as an investment, investment in what? It inherently doesn't have any value or utility.
    - sparkie 5y ago
      Speculation is a distraction from the greater goal. When there are volatile exchange markets, people will always try to take advantage of them to make money. The fact that people see bitcoin as an investment is really a testament to just how awful fiat money is. Is bitcoin going up, or is fiat going down? It's probably both, but the reason people expect bitcoin to continue going up is precisely because the fiat money is being expanded and their purchasing power is being robbed via the inflation caused by that expansion. The expectation to continue going up isn't just guesswork or gambling either. If you study the history of money, then you learn that almost any time two monies are competing, the harder money displaces the easy money. All value is subjective, and always has been. If it the case that historically, people subjectively prefer to save the harder money (Gresham's Law), then what reason do you have to think this time is any different?
cole-k 5y ago
Sing it with me, "Ev-ry bo-dy wants to be rich-er" (to the tune of "Everybody Wants To Rule The World") Maybe I'm beating a dead horse, but it seems to me that if bitcoin investors care about its status as a Ponzi scheme or its greater merits at all, they certainly don't care as much as they do for its potential to multiply their investment.

richardanaya 5y ago

There's no doubt there's money to be made, but fundamentally bitcoin represents a threat to the existing power's ability to control financial markets. I see so many people hoping that they'l give that power up .. and then we have a nation like China go and ban crypto and EU legislating it like crazy. I'm sure crypto will exist in the future, to me the big question will be how painful will a government make it for you to own crypto.

arcticbull 5y ago

I'm sure glad you didn't work at SEC Enforcement when they finally went after Madoff. > The younger generations have been told in no uncertain terms that they are locked out of investment in real estate and many other instruments that are controlled by the aging generations. Sure, so they should petition for zoning reform not engage in Ponzi schemes. > Many things look like ponzi but are not, because they never burst. That's not really the definition, though. > People putting themselves outside the bitcoin bubble are willinging missing the future. The definition of the "future" isn't "Ponzi scheme that will never burst probably, because real estate is unfair."

cblconfederate 5y ago
> Sure, so they should petition for zoning reform not engage in Ponzi schemes. Demographically, post-boomer generations can never win the vote Voice does not work in this case, so they choose exit I guess they are also sick and tired being told what they "should" do
- arcticbull 5y ago
  > Demographically, post-boomer generations can never win the vote You don't think the "boomers" will die? > I guess they are also sick and tired being told what they "should" do Petulance isn't a value proposition either.
  - cblconfederate 5y ago
    now that sounds like a boomer opinion ;) The size of that generation and the great increase in lifespan ensures that "boomers" will stay dominant longer than any other. Millenials don't want to wait until they 're 50 to start making wealth
    - arcticbull 5y ago
      > now that sounds like a boomer opinion ;) I'm a median millennial. > The size of that generation and the great increase in lifespan ensures that "boomers" will stay dominant longer than any other. I didn't realize wealth made you live longer. It actually doesn't by the way, it's not particularly correlated after a certain point. Charts available on request. > Millenials don't want to wait until they 're 50 to start making wealth. Good news is they're not. Adjusted for inflation they're exactly on track with previous cohorts. [1] But Ponzi schemes do not create wealth. Crypto redistributes wealth from new participants to old ones, and miners/validators, while not creating any value. [1] https://economistwritingeveryday.files.wordpress.com/2021/08/image-7.png https://economistwritingeveryday.files.wordpress.com/2021/08...
      - cblconfederate 5y ago
        I don't believe your graph https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/12/03/precariousness-modern-young-adulthood-one-chart/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/12/03/precariou... i never said their wealth made them live longer, science did

qeternity 5y ago

> So they create their own bubbles and they will keep supporting them because every generation wants to achieve some level of wealth. You are talking about things like equity and real estate which have actual utility. Sure they might be overpriced now, I agree with that. But their prices are backstopped by the utility they provide. A lot of crypto does not have any utility and never will. Nobody is supporting the beanie baby bubble or the tulip bubble. The idea that bubbles are not just ok, but should be encouraged, is very troubling.

sparkie 5y ago
Bitcoin has utility; it separates money from the State. If that's not useful, I don't know what is. When the State deliberately debases its own currency year on year, and suddenly there is a useful option for saving, which nobody can debase, then it has provided something quite profound. And this is also why it is unlike any other 'bubble'. Whenever the perceived value of an asset increases quickly, many people scramble to produce more of that asset in order to take advantage of the higher prices. This overproduction then leads to prices dropping, or the bubble popping. What makes bitcoin different, is no matter how much work they put in to create more bitcoin, they cannot release more than the amount that was pre-determined for that ~10 minute period. The supply of bitcoin is completely decoupled from its demand. There has never been a 'bubble' in history with this property.
- takeda 5y ago
  That was true initially, but because of its price it became impractical as a currency. People are now only buying it as an investment, investment in what? It inherently doesn't have any value or utility.
  - sparkie 5y ago
    Speculation is a distraction from the greater goal. When there are volatile exchange markets, people will always try to take advantage of them to make money. The fact that people see bitcoin as an investment is really a testament to just how awful fiat money is. Is bitcoin going up, or is fiat going down? It's probably both, but the reason people expect bitcoin to continue going up is precisely because the fiat money is being expanded and their purchasing power is being robbed via the inflation caused by that expansion. The expectation to continue going up isn't just guesswork or gambling either. If you study the history of money, then you learn that almost any time two monies are competing, the harder money displaces the easy money. All value is subjective, and always has been. If it the case that historically, people subjectively prefer to save the harder money (Gresham's Law), then what reason do you have to think this time is any different?

cole-k 5y ago

Sing it with me, "Ev-ry bo-dy wants to be rich-er" (to the tune of "Everybody Wants To Rule The World") Maybe I'm beating a dead horse, but it seems to me that if bitcoin investors care about its status as a Ponzi scheme or its greater merits at all, they certainly don't care as much as they do for its potential to multiply their investment.