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> Do you think we will forever be organized and segregated by governments? Since you asked, yes. I do. To me, it's like asking if a beehive will always have a

> Do you think we will forever be organized and segregated by governments? Since you asked, yes. I do. To me, it's like asking if a beehive will always have a queen. It's in our DNA. > Also, you're right. POW as a consensus method is flawed. But again, all V3 cryptos have essentially transitioned to delegated proof of stake at this point. I honestly don't know enough about "V3 cryptos" to speak to it, and I'm not trying to add any FUD to the conversation :) I'll have to DMOR if you will before I can speak to that, which is why I've been constraining my comments to the system I know (BTC). > Edit: There are 104 protocols/coins that have over $1B market cap. Value isn't a personal judgement, it's a group one. [edit] Market cap isn't a judgement of value, just the most recent price multiplied by supply. Control the most recent price, you control the market cap. Unless you include legitimate market depth it's not really a meaningful number. SHIB for instance.

jkhdigital 5y ago
> Since you asked, yes. I do. To me, it's like asking if a beehive will always have a queen. It's in our DNA. Not the asker, but thank you for answering this--it goes a long way toward understanding where your arguments are coming from.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  Places without a functional government have a history of doing pretty poorly. I think the burden of proof that there is a possible future without government lies on those making that claim. That burden has definitely not been met and the thus the feverent belied in that claim by cryptocurrency bulls is not rational.
  - jkhdigital 5y ago
    This is kind of a straw man… while I’m sure there are some fringe John McAfee-types who think crypto is the door to anarcho-capitalism, I don’t take any of them seriously. So I’m not sure who you’re directing your argument towards.
  - momo_O 5y ago
    Couldn’t it similarly have been said some hundreds of years ago that, places without a functional monarchy have a history or doing poorly? It would be accurate, for the time, but hugely short sighted.
- imtringued 5y ago
  All humans enforce laws with physical interactions, especially violent ones. If you have no central governing body then every human makes their own rules and laws and when they enforce these rules they will be just as violent as the governments they wanted to run away from.
  - jkhdigital 5y ago
    You should probably read some philosophy. There are much more sophisticated and nuanced ways of thinking about government and law than your comment seems to endorse.
RustyConsul 5y ago
Really enjoyed this convo, if you want a bit more of a long form of my thought process on this, read the Sovereign individual (With a grain of salt, it gets a bit wild) My main point is don't completely dismiss a nescient technological field based on it's lack of utility now. Sustained development effort with real venture capital only dates back to around 2017, 2018. All major silicon valley firms have launched funds to develop early research teams, nobel prize winning mathematicians developing protocols and some of these people are currently the richest individuals on the planet, just no one really know how much they actually have and obvious issues with liquidity withstanding. > SHIB for instance As many (If not more) of the crypto industry is marketing teams riding the 'Wave'. However, some of the projects have 100's of employees building infrastructure for the new internet. Check out Parity if you want an example of a true crypto company.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  I love discussing both this topic specifically, and all sorts of things I have a strong opinion on with folks who disagree. I'm always open to being wrong; I've added The Sovereign Individual to my Kindle library and my reading list. Hope you have a great evening. Enjoyed the back-and-forth as well.
  - nlh 5y ago
    Just want to chime in and say I enjoyed reading this interaction. Both well-reasoned points, politely and maturely presented (one of the things I love about HN.) I happen to agree entirely with your side, but that's irrelevant. Thanks!
- graeme 5y ago
  Is there any short form version of something someone can read to get a sense of the value you’re seeing? I followed this conversation with interest, but still find myself unenlightened as to what there is I haven’t understood yet about the space. Whenever I talk to a proponent it seems very theoretical. There are often analogies to the early internet, but I was alive then and remember some of the early, tangible use cases which had me hooked: * You can look at Nintendo’s website. It has information about games, which you are currently getting from magazines (my first exposure) * You can buy books you can’t buy locally (Amazon) * You can mail a friend from another location, for free (hotmail, gmail) * You can call a friend in another country, for free (skype) * You can call a phone in another country, for cheap (skype) What are some crypto equivalents, today, that would convince someone who is not already invested in crypto that they need to get into crypto to use it? E.g. saying “you can get a loan of 66% of your Bitcoin holdings!” is a use case for people already in crypto. I would also exclude stablecoin yields because the risks there are massive, and there exist plenty of investments with high risk and high return in normal land.

jkhdigital 5y ago

> Since you asked, yes. I do. To me, it's like asking if a beehive will always have a queen. It's in our DNA. Not the asker, but thank you for answering this--it goes a long way toward understanding where your arguments are coming from.

shkkmo 5y ago
Places without a functional government have a history of doing pretty poorly. I think the burden of proof that there is a possible future without government lies on those making that claim. That burden has definitely not been met and the thus the feverent belied in that claim by cryptocurrency bulls is not rational.
- jkhdigital 5y ago
  This is kind of a straw man… while I’m sure there are some fringe John McAfee-types who think crypto is the door to anarcho-capitalism, I don’t take any of them seriously. So I’m not sure who you’re directing your argument towards.
- momo_O 5y ago
  Couldn’t it similarly have been said some hundreds of years ago that, places without a functional monarchy have a history or doing poorly? It would be accurate, for the time, but hugely short sighted.
imtringued 5y ago
All humans enforce laws with physical interactions, especially violent ones. If you have no central governing body then every human makes their own rules and laws and when they enforce these rules they will be just as violent as the governments they wanted to run away from.
- jkhdigital 5y ago
  You should probably read some philosophy. There are much more sophisticated and nuanced ways of thinking about government and law than your comment seems to endorse.

RustyConsul 5y ago

Really enjoyed this convo, if you want a bit more of a long form of my thought process on this, read the Sovereign individual (With a grain of salt, it gets a bit wild) My main point is don't completely dismiss a nescient technological field based on it's lack of utility now. Sustained development effort with real venture capital only dates back to around 2017, 2018. All major silicon valley firms have launched funds to develop early research teams, nobel prize winning mathematicians developing protocols and some of these people are currently the richest individuals on the planet, just no one really know how much they actually have and obvious issues with liquidity withstanding. > SHIB for instance As many (If not more) of the crypto industry is marketing teams riding the 'Wave'. However, some of the projects have 100's of employees building infrastructure for the new internet. Check out Parity if you want an example of a true crypto company.

arcticbull 5y ago
I love discussing both this topic specifically, and all sorts of things I have a strong opinion on with folks who disagree. I'm always open to being wrong; I've added The Sovereign Individual to my Kindle library and my reading list. Hope you have a great evening. Enjoyed the back-and-forth as well.
- nlh 5y ago
  Just want to chime in and say I enjoyed reading this interaction. Both well-reasoned points, politely and maturely presented (one of the things I love about HN.) I happen to agree entirely with your side, but that's irrelevant. Thanks!
graeme 5y ago
Is there any short form version of something someone can read to get a sense of the value you’re seeing? I followed this conversation with interest, but still find myself unenlightened as to what there is I haven’t understood yet about the space. Whenever I talk to a proponent it seems very theoretical. There are often analogies to the early internet, but I was alive then and remember some of the early, tangible use cases which had me hooked: * You can look at Nintendo’s website. It has information about games, which you are currently getting from magazines (my first exposure) * You can buy books you can’t buy locally (Amazon) * You can mail a friend from another location, for free (hotmail, gmail) * You can call a friend in another country, for free (skype) * You can call a phone in another country, for cheap (skype) What are some crypto equivalents, today, that would convince someone who is not already invested in crypto that they need to get into crypto to use it? E.g. saying “you can get a loan of 66% of your Bitcoin holdings!” is a use case for people already in crypto. I would also exclude stablecoin yields because the risks there are massive, and there exist plenty of investments with high risk and high return in normal land.