7 ms·

Is it roughly the same to "prove" your identity in the US as it is in the UK? In the US, at least for most credit checks, you just need your SSN, some public re

Is it roughly the same to "prove" your identity in the US as it is in the UK? In the US, at least for most credit checks, you just need your SSN, some public record data about where you've lived, and personal data (name, DOB, etc). It's largely because there is no "National ID" system in the US (due to political reasons). That makes it hard for companies to track people, and the SSN is the only number that people consistently have. Are there any examples of countries where their government is getting this right and eliminating stupid fraud?

anonymousisme 5y ago
"It's largely because there is no "National ID" system in the US (due to political reasons). That makes it hard for companies to track people, and the SSN is the only number that people consistently have." "Real ID" is now a thing. It's a "National ID". https://www.dhs.gov/real-id https://www.dhs.gov/real-id
- 2fast4you 5y ago
  > REAL ID is a federal law, not an actual piece of ID. Congress passed the REAL ID Act in 2005. The act established minimum security standards for state-issued driver licenses and ID cards. https://www.dol.wa.gov/about/real-id-overview.html https://www.dol.wa.gov/about/real-id-overview.html REAL ID doesn't sound like a federal ID system, it's just security standards for state issued ID cards.
  - anonymousisme 5y ago
    If states are complying to federal standards for ID, then it is effectively a federal ID.
    - 2fast4you 5y ago
      But they aren't issued or backed by the federal government. There isn't a national database for it, each state still has it's own system
      - throaway46546 5y ago
        There is a national database. It is called SPEXS.
- outworlder 5y ago
  No it isn't. This might be the case when SSNs stop being requested for non social-security purposes and 'real id' starts to get used in its place. People don't necessarily have them either. Only those who have chosen to do so at a DMV. SSNs are often assigned at birth, for people born in the US.
jonp888 5y ago
The UK also has national ID system. It is almost unique in Europe in this respect.
- iso1631 5y ago
  The UK doesn't have a national ID system. It's not clear how such a system would help in this situation - if the fraudster managed to get a driving license, why would they have a problem getting an ID card.
  - jopsen 5y ago
    Many national ID systems in the EU have a digital component. With two factor authentication. They are not perfect, but it raises the bar.
    - iso1631 5y ago
      So if you lose your phone you can never get a replacement ID? Or is the 2FA not worth the paper it isn't printed on when it comes to replacements, and you're back to the same level of proof you need for a driving license or passport.
      - jopsen 5y ago
        (A) If the app on my phone stops working because someone stole my ID, then I'll likely notice next time I try to use it. (B) You have to compromise both password and 2FA. (C) Walking into a government office certainly raises the barrier to stealing ID.
  - jonp888 5y ago
    Sorry, I mistyped :)
lbriner 5y ago
It sounds like the fraudster got a copy of the real person's driving licence, although he must have looked the real person presumably. A Solicitor has to due the legal due-diligence to make sure they have the right to sell including usually ownership of the title deeds but if you don't have the title deeds and they are held by the Land Registry in name only, this is fairly easy to get around. I smell an insurance claim against the Solicitor but it depends whether they did everything correctly or not, otherwise I don't know where he stands.
- marcus_holmes 5y ago
  though presumably in "these trying times" the entire transaction was done remotely and so the proof of ID was images/photos/scans rather than seeing the originals - a lot easier to forge and alter
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - pmyteh 5y ago
    I had to turn up in person to a solicitor's office with ID (and my face) for a recent house purchase (in England), so that's at least not universal.
    - lbriner 5y ago
      I have never done this for personal house sales in the UK, the only time we did it was when getting a commercial lease signed by the directors and each of them had to ID at the Solicitors offices. Thinking about it, it does seem very open to abuse!
AmericanBlarney 5y ago
Seems pretty questionable as to whether due diligence was done given the first indicator neighbors had of the sale was after the transaction occurred. At least in the U.S. it's typically pretty tough to miss that a house is up for sale - signage, open houses, realtors showing up to give tours. Curious how this buyer even connected with the seller.
- lbriner 5y ago
  Not sure whether they will ever find the link. Regarding signs etc. it sounds like the owner worked away so maybe the neighbours just assumed that he was selling? In the UK, it is very much a paperwork exercise, I have never met any of the solicitors I have sold houses with, haven't even spoken to most of them (everything on email)
- irrational 5y ago
  I live in the USA, this year we both sold our previous home and purchased our new home without the use of signage, open houses, tours, realtors, etc. We found the house we bought and found the buyers of our old house through our network of friends. We filled out all the paperwork from forms we printed off online. The title company took care of everything after that. It was all done completely online until the very last signing. At that signing the title company person told us that they are almost ready to have everything completely done online so that nobody ever has to meet in person. So, shortly it will be possible to completely buy and sell a house without ever meeting in person. At the time I was just thinking about how easy and convenient it all was (and how much money we saved by not having realtors), but now I’m wondering about the fraud aspects.
  - yupper32 5y ago
    > I live in the USA, this year we both sold our previous home and purchased our new home without the use of signage, open houses, tours, realtors, etc. We found the house we bought and found the buyers of our old house through our network of friends. We filled out all the paperwork from forms we printed off online. Surely you left a massive amount of money on the table then, right?
cameronh90 5y ago
Currently buying a house in the UK and it involved rather a lot of ID verification. I had to provide, to the bank, estate agent, mortgage broker and lawyers, the following: passport, driving license, utility bills, payslips, source of funds, bank statements, app-based liveness verification and more. However, in the event of an off-market cash transaction, a lot fewer parties are involved - potentially just a conveyancer/solicitor. I'm guessing it's them who hugely dropped the ball in identity verification.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
  Still need a purchase contract. But it's insane to me that UK law would allow for someone to forge documents in a civil matter and get away with it.
- spzb 5y ago
  Same here. We completed over the summer and even had to provide our marriage certificate to the bank (no idea why, are single people not allowed mortgages?). Sounds very much like the conveyancers (lawyers) screwed up massively. There still some bits of this story I don't understand. Like, how did the fraudster get access to the house in the first place? Did he break in then fix the damage and replace the locks so he had a set of keys to give to the "buyer"?
  - mcguire 5y ago
    The breaking in is not really that hard. It could be a simple as calling a locksmith, telling them you were out of town on business and lost your keys, and asking them to re-key or replace the locks. If you've got the ID to sell the house, you certainly have enough ID to convince anyone else.
  - martyvis 5y ago
    >no idea why, are single people not allowed mortgages? The bank needs to know the status of the relationship because in the terrible event of it breaking up, your partner would have equity in the asset.
jaclaz 5y ago
I believe it depends, a house sale is no "ordinary" matter. In other european countries like, say, Italy, Spain, France there are national ID's and - opposed to solicitors like in the UK - notaries which are a sort of public officials for the contract (and they will check and certify the identities of the people involved, besides the acts of property) and you won't likely be able to open an account or however cash a check (I mean large sums, like the sale of a house) with someone else's identity in any bank without proper ID. Possibly, with at least two well forged pieces of ID[1], you can get around it in the bank, but I don't think it is easy. [1] this is (or used to be) a common request, though I doubt it is Law, when you want to open a bank account in Italy, and you need to exhibit the actual documents, not a photo or similar.
handrous 5y ago
The situation with government data in the US is extremely frustrating. Between the government themselves and quasi-governmental private companies (the credit bureaus) they know practically everything about us—but we refuse to let them use that information in any kind of helpful way to make our lives easier and reduce our stress & workloads, because that would be "big brother" or a step toward ushering in the end times (for foreigners: yes, seriously, that's not a joke) or whatever.
mindslight 5y ago
There is no such thing as "getting this right" the way you're thinking. No matter what you choose, any possible source of truth will be imperfect. In this case, the UK Land Registry is used as a source of truth, but didn't thoroughly check IDs. Seemingly because the UK ID system is used as a source of truth, but then itself failed in some way. With an ambient concept of ownership, one is inherently left with a tradeoff between trusting the system as defined and being able to override it. In fact, this is exactly what caused this failure of the victim being unable to get their house back - compared to the common law deed system still prevalent in the US, whereby the buyer would be left without any title and would have to fall back on title insurance to be made whole. The only way to eliminate fraud is to define away right and wrong, creating a single source of truth ala Bitcoin [0]. In Bitcoin if you have the privkey to a pubkey, then you can transfer value to a new pubkey, period - there is no such thing as theft, as it has been defined away. But obviously this isn't the kind of harsh regime people have in mind when they say they want to eliminate fraud. FWIW the political problem in the US preventing national ID is the complete lack of ability to reign in corporate behavior. The ongoing abuse of SSN and drivers license numbers by private surveillance companies needs to be stopped (by something akin to the GDPR) before it would make any sense to talk about creating even stronger identification. [0] Actually this is going to fail for Bitcoin as well, because it lacks the key ecash property of untraceability. Since it lacks fungibility, it's only a matter of time until courts routinely override the computational system with their own version of truth.

anonymousisme 5y ago

"It's largely because there is no "National ID" system in the US (due to political reasons). That makes it hard for companies to track people, and the SSN is the only number that people consistently have." "Real ID" is now a thing. It's a "National ID". https://www.dhs.gov/real-id https://www.dhs.gov/real-id

2fast4you 5y ago
> REAL ID is a federal law, not an actual piece of ID. Congress passed the REAL ID Act in 2005. The act established minimum security standards for state-issued driver licenses and ID cards. https://www.dol.wa.gov/about/real-id-overview.html https://www.dol.wa.gov/about/real-id-overview.html REAL ID doesn't sound like a federal ID system, it's just security standards for state issued ID cards.
- anonymousisme 5y ago
  If states are complying to federal standards for ID, then it is effectively a federal ID.
  - 2fast4you 5y ago
    But they aren't issued or backed by the federal government. There isn't a national database for it, each state still has it's own system
    - throaway46546 5y ago
      There is a national database. It is called SPEXS.
outworlder 5y ago
No it isn't. This might be the case when SSNs stop being requested for non social-security purposes and 'real id' starts to get used in its place. People don't necessarily have them either. Only those who have chosen to do so at a DMV. SSNs are often assigned at birth, for people born in the US.

jonp888 5y ago

The UK also has national ID system. It is almost unique in Europe in this respect.

iso1631 5y ago
The UK doesn't have a national ID system. It's not clear how such a system would help in this situation - if the fraudster managed to get a driving license, why would they have a problem getting an ID card.
- jopsen 5y ago
  Many national ID systems in the EU have a digital component. With two factor authentication. They are not perfect, but it raises the bar.
  - iso1631 5y ago
    So if you lose your phone you can never get a replacement ID? Or is the 2FA not worth the paper it isn't printed on when it comes to replacements, and you're back to the same level of proof you need for a driving license or passport.
    - jopsen 5y ago
      (A) If the app on my phone stops working because someone stole my ID, then I'll likely notice next time I try to use it. (B) You have to compromise both password and 2FA. (C) Walking into a government office certainly raises the barrier to stealing ID.
- jonp888 5y ago
  Sorry, I mistyped :)

lbriner 5y ago

It sounds like the fraudster got a copy of the real person's driving licence, although he must have looked the real person presumably. A Solicitor has to due the legal due-diligence to make sure they have the right to sell including usually ownership of the title deeds but if you don't have the title deeds and they are held by the Land Registry in name only, this is fairly easy to get around. I smell an insurance claim against the Solicitor but it depends whether they did everything correctly or not, otherwise I don't know where he stands.

marcus_holmes 5y ago
though presumably in "these trying times" the entire transaction was done remotely and so the proof of ID was images/photos/scans rather than seeing the originals - a lot easier to forge and alter
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- pmyteh 5y ago
  I had to turn up in person to a solicitor's office with ID (and my face) for a recent house purchase (in England), so that's at least not universal.
  - lbriner 5y ago
    I have never done this for personal house sales in the UK, the only time we did it was when getting a commercial lease signed by the directors and each of them had to ID at the Solicitors offices. Thinking about it, it does seem very open to abuse!

AmericanBlarney 5y ago

Seems pretty questionable as to whether due diligence was done given the first indicator neighbors had of the sale was after the transaction occurred. At least in the U.S. it's typically pretty tough to miss that a house is up for sale - signage, open houses, realtors showing up to give tours. Curious how this buyer even connected with the seller.

lbriner 5y ago
Not sure whether they will ever find the link. Regarding signs etc. it sounds like the owner worked away so maybe the neighbours just assumed that he was selling? In the UK, it is very much a paperwork exercise, I have never met any of the solicitors I have sold houses with, haven't even spoken to most of them (everything on email)
irrational 5y ago
I live in the USA, this year we both sold our previous home and purchased our new home without the use of signage, open houses, tours, realtors, etc. We found the house we bought and found the buyers of our old house through our network of friends. We filled out all the paperwork from forms we printed off online. The title company took care of everything after that. It was all done completely online until the very last signing. At that signing the title company person told us that they are almost ready to have everything completely done online so that nobody ever has to meet in person. So, shortly it will be possible to completely buy and sell a house without ever meeting in person. At the time I was just thinking about how easy and convenient it all was (and how much money we saved by not having realtors), but now I’m wondering about the fraud aspects.
- yupper32 5y ago
  > I live in the USA, this year we both sold our previous home and purchased our new home without the use of signage, open houses, tours, realtors, etc. We found the house we bought and found the buyers of our old house through our network of friends. We filled out all the paperwork from forms we printed off online. Surely you left a massive amount of money on the table then, right?

cameronh90 5y ago

Currently buying a house in the UK and it involved rather a lot of ID verification. I had to provide, to the bank, estate agent, mortgage broker and lawyers, the following: passport, driving license, utility bills, payslips, source of funds, bank statements, app-based liveness verification and more. However, in the event of an off-market cash transaction, a lot fewer parties are involved - potentially just a conveyancer/solicitor. I'm guessing it's them who hugely dropped the ball in identity verification.

MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
Still need a purchase contract. But it's insane to me that UK law would allow for someone to forge documents in a civil matter and get away with it.
spzb 5y ago
Same here. We completed over the summer and even had to provide our marriage certificate to the bank (no idea why, are single people not allowed mortgages?). Sounds very much like the conveyancers (lawyers) screwed up massively. There still some bits of this story I don't understand. Like, how did the fraudster get access to the house in the first place? Did he break in then fix the damage and replace the locks so he had a set of keys to give to the "buyer"?
- mcguire 5y ago
  The breaking in is not really that hard. It could be a simple as calling a locksmith, telling them you were out of town on business and lost your keys, and asking them to re-key or replace the locks. If you've got the ID to sell the house, you certainly have enough ID to convince anyone else.
- martyvis 5y ago
  >no idea why, are single people not allowed mortgages? The bank needs to know the status of the relationship because in the terrible event of it breaking up, your partner would have equity in the asset.

jaclaz 5y ago

I believe it depends, a house sale is no "ordinary" matter. In other european countries like, say, Italy, Spain, France there are national ID's and - opposed to solicitors like in the UK - notaries which are a sort of public officials for the contract (and they will check and certify the identities of the people involved, besides the acts of property) and you won't likely be able to open an account or however cash a check (I mean large sums, like the sale of a house) with someone else's identity in any bank without proper ID. Possibly, with at least two well forged pieces of ID[1], you can get around it in the bank, but I don't think it is easy. [1] this is (or used to be) a common request, though I doubt it is Law, when you want to open a bank account in Italy, and you need to exhibit the actual documents, not a photo or similar.

handrous 5y ago

The situation with government data in the US is extremely frustrating. Between the government themselves and quasi-governmental private companies (the credit bureaus) they know practically everything about us—but we refuse to let them use that information in any kind of helpful way to make our lives easier and reduce our stress & workloads, because that would be "big brother" or a step toward ushering in the end times (for foreigners: yes, seriously, that's not a joke) or whatever.

mindslight 5y ago

There is no such thing as "getting this right" the way you're thinking. No matter what you choose, any possible source of truth will be imperfect. In this case, the UK Land Registry is used as a source of truth, but didn't thoroughly check IDs. Seemingly because the UK ID system is used as a source of truth, but then itself failed in some way. With an ambient concept of ownership, one is inherently left with a tradeoff between trusting the system as defined and being able to override it. In fact, this is exactly what caused this failure of the victim being unable to get their house back - compared to the common law deed system still prevalent in the US, whereby the buyer would be left without any title and would have to fall back on title insurance to be made whole. The only way to eliminate fraud is to define away right and wrong, creating a single source of truth ala Bitcoin [0]. In Bitcoin if you have the privkey to a pubkey, then you can transfer value to a new pubkey, period - there is no such thing as theft, as it has been defined away. But obviously this isn't the kind of harsh regime people have in mind when they say they want to eliminate fraud. FWIW the political problem in the US preventing national ID is the complete lack of ability to reign in corporate behavior. The ongoing abuse of SSN and drivers license numbers by private surveillance companies needs to be stopped (by something akin to the GDPR) before it would make any sense to talk about creating even stronger identification. [0] Actually this is going to fail for Bitcoin as well, because it lacks the key ecash property of untraceability. Since it lacks fungibility, it's only a matter of time until courts routinely override the computational system with their own version of truth.