19 ms·

EU Chatcontrol 2.0 [video]

414 points by nix23 5y ago

intricatedetail 5y ago
I remember talking about such scenario like decade ago and people were telling me I am a conspiracy theorist and the EU would never do something like this as it breaches human rights. I guess it's too late now. Too much money and powerful people involved.
- AnssiH 5y ago
  EU has still not done it (yet, anyway). This is not an actual legislative proposal of any kind.
pooya13 5y ago
Even if we ignore privacy and effectiveness, the problem with authoritarian methods is that they can (and most likely will) be abused. The justification may be to catch predators and terrorists (which is uncomfortable to argue against lest you be labeled a predator / terrorist sympathizer yourself), but it will in practice be used to surveil political rivals, journalists, activists etc.
rmanolis 5y ago
All the pedophiles will work for Facebook and google just to be able to watch private pictures of minor. Seriously EU do you ever think before voting?
nix23 5y ago
https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/message-screening/ https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/message-screening/
luciusdomitius 5y ago
This is really interesting coming from the Pirate Party. While I remember them for the protests against ACTA some 12 years ago, their biggest success - the Czech Pirate party is extremely pro-Brussels and has hardly breathed a word against it. Otherwise, my opinion is that this would be either impossible to enforce or the cost to do so would outweigh the benefits in a massive way.
- FerretFred 5y ago
  I agree with your opinion, but we're talking the EU here .. cost and red tape will not be an issue, so it'll happen.
- emteycz 5y ago
  The Czech pirate party was built on internal democracy without any failsafety and got swathed by hundreds (thousands today) of leftists/statists indifferent to the original ideas. Basically none of their voting base (young adults, mostly) has any idea about the origin of the party. They were lured to the party because it supports green and social statist politics. Note: I don't think statism in itself is wrong, but I don't like the particular kind of state they're pushing for. I think their goals could be accomplished by supporting people more directly e. g. by supporting independent social organizations, which I think would be more in line with the original pirate ideas. However I must say that their latest program (for the parliamentary elections) was acceptable to me. But they're nearly (4/200) out of the parliament now.
  - kebman 5y ago
    A friend of mine was the leader of the Norwegian Pirate Party. He proposed a new way to organize society in a decentralized, professionalized, yet accountable way. His main issue was that politicians would promise a bunch of nonsense, and then get voted in based upon those promises, but after the fact they would never do anything about it. Even after breaking all the promises, most politicians never have to answer for lying or not accomplishing what got them into a position in the first place. One of the concrete tools he alluded to when speaking about these flaws was the FixMyStreet app and website.
    - TulliusCicero 5y ago
      While this is true, some of it is because voters are ignorant and prefer politicians who lie to them. Oh sure, they'll say they want honest politicians, but then the ones who promise them the moon are the ones they'll actually vote for. Someone telling them, "sorry but your policy idea is hideously impractical and would be extremely expensive for little benefit" won't get their vote, even if it's true.
visarga 5y ago
I'd rather have the ability to filter what I don't like in my feeds, but having the government do this is totalitarian. Who knows what they will search for, I lived under communism for 15 years, thank you, don't want back to the reign of terror.
- iakov 5y ago
  It's not even about your feeds. It's about your private messages. Crazy stuff, Gestapo and KGB wouldn't even dream of this level of surveillance of ordinary citizens.
  - heavenlyblue 5y ago
    > Crazy stuff, Gestapo and KGB wouldn't even dream of this level of surveillance of ordinary citizens. They were doing that exact thing to selected citizens. So did FBI for alleged communists. Bugging apartments, planting their own spies, opening up private letters, etc.
    - PontifexMinimus 5y ago
      > They were doing that exact thing to selected citizens But they couldn't do it to everyone. Now with computers they can. You might think 1984 was written as a warning, but the powers that be see it as an instruction manual.
    - rhn_mk1 5y ago
      > selected citizens Yup, they wouldn't even dream about that magnitude.
    - buran77 5y ago
      Scale makes a whole lot of difference. Even the Stasi, the KGB, or the FBI had to restrict such monitoring to the small fraction of the population they actually suspected. Now they don't only suspect everyone, they also have the tools to monitor everyone. It's the difference between being able to point a gun at a few inconvenient people, and being able to point it at everybody, all the time. Eventually the temptation presented by this kind of power and control over people will intersect with some Erdogan or Lukashenko type with the finger on the trigger.
jimbob45 5y ago
>Previously secure end-to-end encrypted messenger services such as Whatsapp or Signal would be forced to install a backdoor. [0] So as an American, are there any Euros that can enlighten me on whether or not there remain any procedural hurdles left for this to clear? Or is this being implemented in Signal as we speak? https://european-pirateparty.eu/parliament-approves-chatcontrol/ https://european-pirateparty.eu/parliament-approves-chatcont...
- nisegami 5y ago
  I would like to think Signal would simply not operate in the EU in any official capacity if this were passed as written. WhatsApp would definitely cave though.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    I mean, it's not that difficult for them to do this for the EU. The EU can be like "You guys know those back-doors you put in for the CCP so they let you operate in China? Yeah, those, just gives us a fork of exactly that and we're cool. Maybe we'll also stop fining you every year for privacy violations and such if you play ball. :wink-wink:"
  - hellojesus 5y ago
    Two questions: 1. If Signal does implement something like this, are they under gag orders so wouldn't be able to inform users? 2. What if they simply don't comply? So long as they don't have an office in the EU, is there anything that could be done? Users could just side-load.
    - lixtra 5y ago
      > 2. What if they simply don't comply? So long as they don't have an office in the EU, is there anything that could be done? Signal would be banned from European appstores/IPs. > Users could just side-load. Yes. But that can be illegal. And is an option for only a small part of the population.
christkv 5y ago
I bet you the politicians and other EU crats will be exempt because of "fill in bs reason". Only for the dirty evil plebs. We need P2P to come back and fast and make this hard to impossible to do.
- petre 5y ago
  Technology isn't going to fix corruption, bureaucracy and lack of transparency. Yes, we can play with P2P crypto stuff until they ban it and classify it as firearms.
323 5y ago
They are a bit behind times with the messaging. Instead of talking about pedophiles, they should talk about racists and far right extremists using chat platforms, that would rally a big part of the press in support: > White supremacists openly organize racist violence on Telegram, report finds https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/26/tech/white-supremacists-telegram-racism-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/26/tech/white-supremacists-t... > Telegram: why right-wing extremists’ favorite new platform is so dangerous https://www.vox.com/recode/22238755/telegram-messaging-social-media-extremists https://www.vox.com/recode/22238755/telegram-messaging-socia... > Neo-Nazi groups use Instagram to recruit young people, warns Hope Not Hate https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/22/neo-nazi-groups-use-instagram-to-recruit-young-people-warns-hope-not-hate https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/22/neo-nazi-group... > How far right uses video games and tech to lure and radicalise teenage recruits https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/14/how-far-right-uses-video-games-tech-lure-radicalise-teenage-recruits-white-supremacists https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/14/how-far-right-... > Revealed: walkie-talkie app Zello hosted far-right groups who stormed Capitol https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/13/zello-app-us-capitol-attack-far-right https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/13/zello-app-us... > The UK social media platform where neo-Nazis can view terror atrocities https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/the-uk-social-media-platform-where-neo-nazis-can-view-terror-atrocities https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/the-uk-soci... > Are Private Messaging Apps the Next Misinformation Hot Spot? https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/03/technology/personaltech/telegram-signal-misinformation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/03/technology/personaltech/t... > The Cybersecurity 202: Extremists flocking to encrypted apps could restart debate over law enforcement access https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/13/cybersecurity-202-extremists-flocking-encrypted-apps-could-restart-debate-over-law-enforcement-access/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/13/cybersecu...
- natded 5y ago
  Do not worry, this is their actual goal obviously. Can't have anyone voice opinions different from Klaus Schwab.
tytrdev 5y ago
1. GDPR 2. Intercept and scan all civilian communication 3. ??? 4. Yellowstone explodes
pydry 5y ago
I really wish somebody (or a lot of people) would write a hit movie/book where an innocent person on the run from a stasi-like state in 2035 has to face an interrogator who could read their whatsapp messages and google searches dating back to 2021. Without art or literature that draws out the terror I don't think most people can really envisage the danger we're all being put in. Without popular consciousness of the problem, it's all the more likely to happen.
- hulitu 5y ago
  The funny part will be that the same politicians who today vote this crap will be its victims. Those who do not underestand history, will repeat it.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- whitepaint 5y ago
  Oh man, this is a wonderful idea.
- zoover2020 5y ago
  Hollywood, watch this.
  - pydry 5y ago
    Alas it wouldnt be a remake or a superhero franchise. The best I can probably hope for is Charlie Brooker seeing it. And, if he writes a screenplay about it that probably means it already happened.
- laumars 5y ago
  That’s genius. The Circle (with Emma Watson and Karen Gillan) started out really promising but ended up drifting in silliness towards the end. Also I seem to recall the movie having a really wooden quality despite the emotional content and having competent actors.
- drclau 5y ago
no_time 5y ago
Is it really a democracy if you keep pushing the same legislation over and over again until the people sleep on it once?
- wolverine876 5y ago
  Elect someone else
  - squarefoot 5y ago
    Sometimes it's too late. The best dictator in the western world isn't the one who sends the army down the streets to shoot protesters, but the one who controls information so that people after years of being dazed by the same propaganda will vote him in power without any coercion. Sadly bad rulers sometimes have more resources than good ones, which turns out in more online/tv/radio/newspaper presence used to spread their propaganda. If we could force somehow politicians to count on the same exact public exposure, from rallies to apparently trivial things such as tweets, that would possibly change something, but to me a similar scenario in this universe is near science fiction.
  - Abfrage 5y ago
    The election to the EU Parliament is a farce. The parliament has no power. It cannot propose laws. It only votes on the laws of the Commission. In the last election, the people could elect the President of the Commission. The person elected did not get the office. They simply put von der Leyen in that position while she was investigated in the German parliament.
    - pas 5y ago
      The power to veto is not a farce.
      - blibble 5y ago
        it is because the commission just has to bide its time once the law is passed future parliaments can't modify or repeal it
jgilias 5y ago
Going on a bit of a tangent here, but I would really prefer if less people chose video as the medium to explain things. For me at least it's markedly easier, quicker, and convenient to read things.
- Avalaxy 5y ago
  Yep. Currently sitting in a waiting room with other people. I didnt bring headphones so have no way to consume this content.
  - notRobot 5y ago
    Did you take a look at the video description? http://www.chatcontrol.eu/ http://www.chatcontrol.eu/
- tomc1985 5y ago
  You can thank gen Z and their enthusiastic refusal to read for that
  - nix23 5y ago
    I am 4 years older then you...young buddy.
    - tomc1985 5y ago
      You're being snarky but the rise of video for basic info transmission really bugs me. You even get these clowns making videos of them typing into notepad! Like ffs get a gd blogger account
      - nix23 5y ago
        Yeah i understand you, i hate it when there's a YT video ala "how to setup a webserver" that's stupidity , but for this kind of information i like it more in that format.
- 5y ago
xcambar 5y ago
Since it applies to chat and messaging providers... does it mean I could self-host my emails and save them from Chatcontrol?
- sabellito 5y ago
  Then everyone you communicate with would also need to self-host.
  - LinuxBender 5y ago
    Maybe a small but growing number of people could deploy NextCloud (open source file sharing, email app). [1][2] Some VPS providers make it easier to deploy. There might be easier ways to deploy nextcloud. [1] - https://www.vultr.com/apps/nextcloud https://www.vultr.com/apps/nextcloud [2] - https://www.linode.com/marketplace/apps/linode/nextcloud/ https://www.linode.com/marketplace/apps/linode/nextcloud/
    - xcambar 5y ago
      To my knowledge, Nextxloud only offers an email client. There's no MTA involved, is this correct?
      - LinuxBender 5y ago
        Correct, you would point it at an MTA of your choice such as postfix. [1] [1] - https://help.nextcloud.com/t/postfix-configuration/45748 https://help.nextcloud.com/t/postfix-configuration/45748
raverbashing 5y ago
The issue is important and needs to be discussed (both sides - which doesn't mean solving it at the 'chat level' is the right answer, of course). And I'm glad the Pirates "get" the internet. But the fud is getting old Realistically, targeted chat grooming on a major platform does end with responsibility over the platform. If the system is BS then it should be trivial to get the chat of any of the politicians involved in approving this. But from the past proposals, it doesn't look like that is "too trivial". While technical folks think the tech world is untouchable by laws the legislative folks think everything is "perfectly" amenable to legislation and of course they're both wrong and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The most likely end result is that messaging for minors might have the monitoring (but remember Google, FB, etc already do this in a way). And of course even if it passes this is amenable to ECJ appeals, etc.
pimterry 5y ago
I agree the future proposed here would be totalitarian, but it's important to be clear that today *this is not currently a legislative proposal in the EU*. It's not been proposed, it's not being voted on, and it's not coming into force any time soon. There are two things that have been proposed: 1. Adding a temporary exemption ('derogation') within privacy regulations to ensure online service providers can scan user data for CSAM if the provider so chooses without being in breach of GDPR. In the US and elsewhere, providers who wish to do were already doing this. This just provides a quick fix to avoid GDPR from shutting down existing service provider's own child protection programs. More details: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/legislative-train/theme-promoting-our-european-way-of-life/file-temporary-derogation-from-the-e-privacy-directive-for-ott-services https://www.europarl.europa.eu/legislative-train/theme-promo... 2. Asking the EU Commission to investigate and analyze possible proposals for longer-term legislative solutions to this issue, by defining more clearly what service providers options and obligations are with regard to CSAM, and proposing various other ways the EU could protect children from abuse offline & online. The EU's summary of the overall process is at https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/policies/internal-security/child-sexual-abuse_en https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/policies/internal-security... (even more detail here: https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/system/files/2020-07/20200724_com-2020-607-commission-communication_en.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/system/files/2020-07/20200...). The details of the derogation regulations are at https://www.europarl.europa.eu/legislative-train/theme-promoting-our-european-way-of-life/file-temporary-derogation-from-the-e-privacy-directive-for-ott-services https://www.europarl.europa.eu/legislative-train/theme-promo..., and there's more detail on the commission's ongoing analysis to eventually define proposals here: https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-say/initiatives/12726-Fighting-child-sexual-abuse-detection-removal-and-reporting-of-illegal-content-online_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-sa... One _possibility_ is that the commission could propose legislation mandating scanning of all messages and AI to automatically search for grooming. Some parts of that legislative option are mentioned as ideas to be considered (see the "Inception impact assessment" PDF in the commissions analysis) alongside various other options. There's nothing suggesting that this is the leading option though. That PDF also makes detailed note of privacy concerns as topics to consider too, and the resulting public consultation on that specific assessment received a huge amount of feedback against such measures. So far, there is no proposed legislation like what's described in this video. If there were, it's likely that there would be major public outcry, and there is no indication that it would pass. It's possible the commission could propose this, but it's also very plausible that the commission proposes some other framework of obligations, which makes it clear when and how online services must scan for CSAM, without mandating searching of all private communications. For example, mandating CSAM scanning of publicly accessible content online, and mandating that private message providers include "report this message" tools to allow users to report otherwise inaccessible content by themselves. Of course, there is always the possibility that the EU could veer away from privacy protections into being a totalitarian state, sure, but nobody is currently proposing legislation along those lines. There's a wide spectrum of reasonable possibilities on the table here that would be genuine improvements. There's no need to panic about the imminent death of privacy quite yet.
tasogare 5y ago
At some point we'll have to go in Bruxelles & Strasbourg to "have a talk" with those parliamentarians and reclaim our freedom. Is this what they are searching for, to justify even harsher laws if popular revolt fails? Or just harass even more political opponents by finding them automatically? All this crap is not gonna end well...
- cure 5y ago
  It's not the parliament that is pushing this nonsense. It's the European Commission, which is not directly elected, that is the problem.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- dahfizz 5y ago
  I wish you luck; without the right to bear arms you are going to need it.
skratlo 5y ago
Does anyone know WHO is actually pushing this? Who is behind this? Who initially proposed it, and who is lobbying for it? Gimme names, c'mon
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  The intelligence agencies wouldn't be very good at their job if you knew what they were up to, would they?
- raverbashing 5y ago
  Ashton Kutcher. Yes, I'm serious.
- AnssiH 5y ago
  See the Feedback section on the initiative (https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-say/initiatives/12726-Fighting-child-sexual-abuse-detection-removal-and-reporting-of-illegal-content-online_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-sa...) for various comments from various organizations/companies, pushing for various things. As far as I can tell, no EU organ has actually published any actual proposal or recommendation to introduce such mandatory screening as described in the OP. My guess is that the actual proposal, when it comes, will not include industrywide mandatory screening or breaking end-to-end encryption.
  - mod50ack 5y ago
    These wr going to actually be proposed in the fall, but it has now been pushed back to December.
say_it_as_it_is 5y ago
Every bill in politics should include a reversion migration to back out of when it fails to achieve the goal of the bill. If this is for child porn protection, 12 months from now it should be reversed when the technology gets used for other purposes.
LinuxBender 5y ago
This likely affects most people world-wide given chat platforms like Discord and Slack allow EU and non-EU citizens to chat with each other. At least they are being up front about it and giving people time to migrate to smaller self contained platforms.
- pacija 5y ago
  People who use anything but smaller self contained platform are in denial if they think all of their emails and IM's aren't already scanned and logged. People with knowledge and resources can and should host their own email and IM servers, on their own hardware, on their own properties. Want my emails or IMs? Get a warrant to enter my property physically and try to decrypt my disks.
Aerroon 5y ago
I don't see how this won't pass. It's the EU. In the minds of many people the EU can do no wrong. And if they do something wrong it's okay and a small thing. And if it's not a small thing then you're just a conspiracy theorist that hates democracy. In the past the EU passed a directive that required all ISPs to save what websites you visited. This was overturned years later, but it seems now they're trying again through a different angle. Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Retention_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Retention_Directive
- merb 5y ago
  well now it's child pornography which they use to push such things trough. all people hate child pornography, but I mean, who would use whatsapp for such things? I mean seriously what are they even thinking? making such a thing go trough a official directive probably makes things go worse, way worse. a lot of people in germany, basically do not care they thing they do not have anything to hide (which is probably right) but there are so many crimes which are just done in front of everybody and nobody did care (cum ex, wirecard, just to name some). it's like once the rich or politicans are involved they start to care.
marcodiego 5y ago
The fact that the video is posted using peertube gives me a breath of hope. Considering how it is currently not very popular, I don't have high hopes that this video will last longer than it could be had it been posted on youtube. Nevertheless, this is a step in the right direction.
eluusive 5y ago
This is definitely coming down the pipe. I think it's extremely imported to come up with an alternative to the existing centralized systems; which I believe primarily exist in order to mitigate spam. Some people have been working on an interesting solution called StampChat which has a similar topology to email, but the messages are encrypted by default and the spam mitigation is done via sending tokens to the recipient (ala Hal Finney's RPoW) idea. It's still a prototype, but there is one deployment over here: https://web.stampchat.io https://web.stampchat.io The whitepaper on the protocol is here: https://www.stampchat.io/whitepaper.pdf https://www.stampchat.io/whitepaper.pdf There's a faucet here if anyone is interested https://faucet.lotuslounge.org/ https://faucet.lotuslounge.org/ We're not doing an ICO or anything, happy to give out more tokens out.
- shuntress 5y ago
  > I think it's extremely imported to come up with an alternative to the existing centralized systems; which I believe primarily exist in order to mitigate spam. I think spam and abuse are definitely significant problems. The centralized systems are like medieval walled cities. They exist because, for an average individual, there is no practical way to live outside their walls. It's difficult to run your own email server. But, while the technical challenge may be difficult, the greater difficulty is in preventing your email server from becoming a bot in a spam network.
  - int_19h 5y ago
    It's not all that difficult if you have the money to pay for a pre-packaged solution. https://thehelm.com/ https://thehelm.com/
  - eluusive 5y ago
    Yeah, I discuss that in the whitepaper for the protocol. You might find it interesting, and it's not terribly long.
kingcharles 5y ago
We'll have to go back to the days of Echelon in the 90s where everyone stuffed their Usenet posts and emails with keywords intending to render any surveillance useless due to overwhelming number of matches.
ricardobayes 5y ago
I personally don't see anything wrong with this. If a private company would do this, sure. But the EU, no. They are non-profit and very unlikely to ever turn rogue. edit: I even welcome this change. You can dislike how you wish, I stand by my view.
- int_19h 5y ago
  Why not take it to its logical conclusion, and mandate cameras in every home? We'll even pinky swear that they'll only ever be used with a court warrant! And just imagine how much this would cut down on child sexual abuse...
  - ricardobayes 5y ago
    What I don't get is how people growing up in free coutries can have such a distopian view of their governments. You all watched too much black mirror. If you study how the balance of powers are structured in the US/UK/EU you'll find it's nigh impossible for these countries to become totalitarian. The US even under Trump didn't become one, but he was as close to a possible dictator as it gets. How do you all go about your daily lives with such dark views on the world? Are there seriously so many doomers/preppers/anarchists out there?
    - nix23 5y ago
      Ask that rapper in Spain if he thinks he lives in a "free" country. https://www.euronews.com/2021/02/23/how-a-rapper-s-arrest-in-spain-sparked-riots-and-fierce-debate-about-freedom-of-expression https://www.euronews.com/2021/02/23/how-a-rapper-s-arrest-in... Why do you think freedom is made by the government and not the peoples?
      - ricardobayes 5y ago
        What would be your reaction if there was an American rapper who would rap day and night of say secession of Texas and glorifying a militant group whose goal is to secede Texas out of USA? And say those gangs did kill many hundred innocent people through explosions and so. Do you think the families of the victims of this militant group think it is okay to sing songs in praise of this group?
Zababa 5y ago
Sent to the US? Really? The whole idea is terrible and harmful, but this part is what surprises me the most.
dang 5y ago
Related from a few months ago: Messaging and chat control - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28115343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28115343 - Aug 2021 (317 comments) via pvg, prof-dr-ir (thanks!): EU Parliament approves mass surveillance of private communications - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27759814 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27759814 - July 2021 (11 comments) European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private communication - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27753727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27753727 - July 2021 (415 comments) Indiscriminate messaging and chatcontrol: Last chance to protest - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27736435 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27736435 - July 2021 (104 comments) IT companies warn in open letter: EU wants to ban encryption - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26825653 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26825653 - April 2021 (217 comments) Others?
- pvg 5y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27759814 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27759814 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27753727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27753727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27736435 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27736435
- prof-dr-ir 5y ago
  IT companies warn in open letter: EU wants to ban encryption - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26825653 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26825653 - April 2021 (217 comments)
- pvg 5y ago
  via pvg, prof-dr-ir for a second I thought got one heckin chonker of a promotion
mackrevinack 5y ago
artificial intelligence is mentioned a few times in the video but that's not even a thing yet. what we have now are just very fancy glorified algorithms

414 points by nix23 5y ago

I remember talking about such scenario like decade ago and people were telling me I am a conspiracy theorist and the EU would never do something like this as it breaches human rights. I guess it's too late now. Too much money and powerful people involved.

AnssiH 5y ago
EU has still not done it (yet, anyway). This is not an actual legislative proposal of any kind.

pooya13 5y ago

Even if we ignore privacy and effectiveness, the problem with authoritarian methods is that they can (and most likely will) be abused. The justification may be to catch predators and terrorists (which is uncomfortable to argue against lest you be labeled a predator / terrorist sympathizer yourself), but it will in practice be used to surveil political rivals, journalists, activists etc.

rmanolis 5y ago

All the pedophiles will work for Facebook and google just to be able to watch private pictures of minor. Seriously EU do you ever think before voting?

nix23 5y ago

https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/message-screening/ https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/message-screening/

luciusdomitius 5y ago

This is really interesting coming from the Pirate Party. While I remember them for the protests against ACTA some 12 years ago, their biggest success - the Czech Pirate party is extremely pro-Brussels and has hardly breathed a word against it. Otherwise, my opinion is that this would be either impossible to enforce or the cost to do so would outweigh the benefits in a massive way.

FerretFred 5y ago
I agree with your opinion, but we're talking the EU here .. cost and red tape will not be an issue, so it'll happen.
emteycz 5y ago
The Czech pirate party was built on internal democracy without any failsafety and got swathed by hundreds (thousands today) of leftists/statists indifferent to the original ideas. Basically none of their voting base (young adults, mostly) has any idea about the origin of the party. They were lured to the party because it supports green and social statist politics. Note: I don't think statism in itself is wrong, but I don't like the particular kind of state they're pushing for. I think their goals could be accomplished by supporting people more directly e. g. by supporting independent social organizations, which I think would be more in line with the original pirate ideas. However I must say that their latest program (for the parliamentary elections) was acceptable to me. But they're nearly (4/200) out of the parliament now.
- kebman 5y ago
  A friend of mine was the leader of the Norwegian Pirate Party. He proposed a new way to organize society in a decentralized, professionalized, yet accountable way. His main issue was that politicians would promise a bunch of nonsense, and then get voted in based upon those promises, but after the fact they would never do anything about it. Even after breaking all the promises, most politicians never have to answer for lying or not accomplishing what got them into a position in the first place. One of the concrete tools he alluded to when speaking about these flaws was the FixMyStreet app and website.
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    While this is true, some of it is because voters are ignorant and prefer politicians who lie to them. Oh sure, they'll say they want honest politicians, but then the ones who promise them the moon are the ones they'll actually vote for. Someone telling them, "sorry but your policy idea is hideously impractical and would be extremely expensive for little benefit" won't get their vote, even if it's true.

visarga 5y ago

I'd rather have the ability to filter what I don't like in my feeds, but having the government do this is totalitarian. Who knows what they will search for, I lived under communism for 15 years, thank you, don't want back to the reign of terror.

iakov 5y ago
It's not even about your feeds. It's about your private messages. Crazy stuff, Gestapo and KGB wouldn't even dream of this level of surveillance of ordinary citizens.
- heavenlyblue 5y ago
  > Crazy stuff, Gestapo and KGB wouldn't even dream of this level of surveillance of ordinary citizens. They were doing that exact thing to selected citizens. So did FBI for alleged communists. Bugging apartments, planting their own spies, opening up private letters, etc.
  - PontifexMinimus 5y ago
    > They were doing that exact thing to selected citizens But they couldn't do it to everyone. Now with computers they can. You might think 1984 was written as a warning, but the powers that be see it as an instruction manual.
  - rhn_mk1 5y ago
    > selected citizens Yup, they wouldn't even dream about that magnitude.
  - buran77 5y ago
    Scale makes a whole lot of difference. Even the Stasi, the KGB, or the FBI had to restrict such monitoring to the small fraction of the population they actually suspected. Now they don't only suspect everyone, they also have the tools to monitor everyone. It's the difference between being able to point a gun at a few inconvenient people, and being able to point it at everybody, all the time. Eventually the temptation presented by this kind of power and control over people will intersect with some Erdogan or Lukashenko type with the finger on the trigger.

jimbob45 5y ago

>Previously secure end-to-end encrypted messenger services such as Whatsapp or Signal would be forced to install a backdoor. [0] So as an American, are there any Euros that can enlighten me on whether or not there remain any procedural hurdles left for this to clear? Or is this being implemented in Signal as we speak? https://european-pirateparty.eu/parliament-approves-chatcontrol/ https://european-pirateparty.eu/parliament-approves-chatcont...

nisegami 5y ago
I would like to think Signal would simply not operate in the EU in any official capacity if this were passed as written. WhatsApp would definitely cave though.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  I mean, it's not that difficult for them to do this for the EU. The EU can be like "You guys know those back-doors you put in for the CCP so they let you operate in China? Yeah, those, just gives us a fork of exactly that and we're cool. Maybe we'll also stop fining you every year for privacy violations and such if you play ball. :wink-wink:"
- hellojesus 5y ago
  Two questions: 1. If Signal does implement something like this, are they under gag orders so wouldn't be able to inform users? 2. What if they simply don't comply? So long as they don't have an office in the EU, is there anything that could be done? Users could just side-load.
  - lixtra 5y ago
    > 2. What if they simply don't comply? So long as they don't have an office in the EU, is there anything that could be done? Signal would be banned from European appstores/IPs. > Users could just side-load. Yes. But that can be illegal. And is an option for only a small part of the population.

christkv 5y ago

I bet you the politicians and other EU crats will be exempt because of "fill in bs reason". Only for the dirty evil plebs. We need P2P to come back and fast and make this hard to impossible to do.

petre 5y ago
Technology isn't going to fix corruption, bureaucracy and lack of transparency. Yes, we can play with P2P crypto stuff until they ban it and classify it as firearms.

323 5y ago

They are a bit behind times with the messaging. Instead of talking about pedophiles, they should talk about racists and far right extremists using chat platforms, that would rally a big part of the press in support: > White supremacists openly organize racist violence on Telegram, report finds https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/26/tech/white-supremacists-telegram-racism-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/26/tech/white-supremacists-t... > Telegram: why right-wing extremists’ favorite new platform is so dangerous https://www.vox.com/recode/22238755/telegram-messaging-social-media-extremists https://www.vox.com/recode/22238755/telegram-messaging-socia... > Neo-Nazi groups use Instagram to recruit young people, warns Hope Not Hate https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/22/neo-nazi-groups-use-instagram-to-recruit-young-people-warns-hope-not-hate https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/22/neo-nazi-group... > How far right uses video games and tech to lure and radicalise teenage recruits https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/14/how-far-right-uses-video-games-tech-lure-radicalise-teenage-recruits-white-supremacists https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/14/how-far-right-... > Revealed: walkie-talkie app Zello hosted far-right groups who stormed Capitol https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/13/zello-app-us-capitol-attack-far-right https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/13/zello-app-us... > The UK social media platform where neo-Nazis can view terror atrocities https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/the-uk-social-media-platform-where-neo-nazis-can-view-terror-atrocities https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/28/the-uk-soci... > Are Private Messaging Apps the Next Misinformation Hot Spot? https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/03/technology/personaltech/telegram-signal-misinformation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/03/technology/personaltech/t... > The Cybersecurity 202: Extremists flocking to encrypted apps could restart debate over law enforcement access https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/13/cybersecurity-202-extremists-flocking-encrypted-apps-could-restart-debate-over-law-enforcement-access/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/13/cybersecu...

natded 5y ago
Do not worry, this is their actual goal obviously. Can't have anyone voice opinions different from Klaus Schwab.

tytrdev 5y ago

1. GDPR 2. Intercept and scan all civilian communication 3. ??? 4. Yellowstone explodes

pydry 5y ago

I really wish somebody (or a lot of people) would write a hit movie/book where an innocent person on the run from a stasi-like state in 2035 has to face an interrogator who could read their whatsapp messages and google searches dating back to 2021. Without art or literature that draws out the terror I don't think most people can really envisage the danger we're all being put in. Without popular consciousness of the problem, it's all the more likely to happen.

hulitu 5y ago
The funny part will be that the same politicians who today vote this crap will be its victims. Those who do not underestand history, will repeat it.
deleted 5y ago
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whitepaint 5y ago
Oh man, this is a wonderful idea.
zoover2020 5y ago
Hollywood, watch this.
- pydry 5y ago
  Alas it wouldnt be a remake or a superhero franchise. The best I can probably hope for is Charlie Brooker seeing it. And, if he writes a screenplay about it that probably means it already happened.
laumars 5y ago
That’s genius. The Circle (with Emma Watson and Karen Gillan) started out really promising but ended up drifting in silliness towards the end. Also I seem to recall the movie having a really wooden quality despite the emotional content and having competent actors.
drclau 5y ago

no_time 5y ago

Is it really a democracy if you keep pushing the same legislation over and over again until the people sleep on it once?

wolverine876 5y ago
Elect someone else
- squarefoot 5y ago
  Sometimes it's too late. The best dictator in the western world isn't the one who sends the army down the streets to shoot protesters, but the one who controls information so that people after years of being dazed by the same propaganda will vote him in power without any coercion. Sadly bad rulers sometimes have more resources than good ones, which turns out in more online/tv/radio/newspaper presence used to spread their propaganda. If we could force somehow politicians to count on the same exact public exposure, from rallies to apparently trivial things such as tweets, that would possibly change something, but to me a similar scenario in this universe is near science fiction.
- Abfrage 5y ago
  The election to the EU Parliament is a farce. The parliament has no power. It cannot propose laws. It only votes on the laws of the Commission. In the last election, the people could elect the President of the Commission. The person elected did not get the office. They simply put von der Leyen in that position while she was investigated in the German parliament.
  - pas 5y ago
    The power to veto is not a farce.
    - blibble 5y ago
      it is because the commission just has to bide its time once the law is passed future parliaments can't modify or repeal it

jgilias 5y ago

Going on a bit of a tangent here, but I would really prefer if less people chose video as the medium to explain things. For me at least it's markedly easier, quicker, and convenient to read things.

Avalaxy 5y ago
Yep. Currently sitting in a waiting room with other people. I didnt bring headphones so have no way to consume this content.
- notRobot 5y ago
  Did you take a look at the video description? http://www.chatcontrol.eu/ http://www.chatcontrol.eu/
tomc1985 5y ago
You can thank gen Z and their enthusiastic refusal to read for that
- nix23 5y ago
  I am 4 years older then you...young buddy.
  - tomc1985 5y ago
    You're being snarky but the rise of video for basic info transmission really bugs me. You even get these clowns making videos of them typing into notepad! Like ffs get a gd blogger account
    - nix23 5y ago
      Yeah i understand you, i hate it when there's a YT video ala "how to setup a webserver" that's stupidity , but for this kind of information i like it more in that format.
5y ago

xcambar 5y ago

Since it applies to chat and messaging providers... does it mean I could self-host my emails and save them from Chatcontrol?

sabellito 5y ago
Then everyone you communicate with would also need to self-host.
- LinuxBender 5y ago
  Maybe a small but growing number of people could deploy NextCloud (open source file sharing, email app). [1][2] Some VPS providers make it easier to deploy. There might be easier ways to deploy nextcloud. [1] - https://www.vultr.com/apps/nextcloud https://www.vultr.com/apps/nextcloud [2] - https://www.linode.com/marketplace/apps/linode/nextcloud/ https://www.linode.com/marketplace/apps/linode/nextcloud/
  - xcambar 5y ago
    To my knowledge, Nextxloud only offers an email client. There's no MTA involved, is this correct?
    - LinuxBender 5y ago
      Correct, you would point it at an MTA of your choice such as postfix. [1] [1] - https://help.nextcloud.com/t/postfix-configuration/45748 https://help.nextcloud.com/t/postfix-configuration/45748

raverbashing 5y ago

The issue is important and needs to be discussed (both sides - which doesn't mean solving it at the 'chat level' is the right answer, of course). And I'm glad the Pirates "get" the internet. But the fud is getting old Realistically, targeted chat grooming on a major platform does end with responsibility over the platform. If the system is BS then it should be trivial to get the chat of any of the politicians involved in approving this. But from the past proposals, it doesn't look like that is "too trivial". While technical folks think the tech world is untouchable by laws the legislative folks think everything is "perfectly" amenable to legislation and of course they're both wrong and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The most likely end result is that messaging for minors might have the monitoring (but remember Google, FB, etc already do this in a way). And of course even if it passes this is amenable to ECJ appeals, etc.

pimterry 5y ago

I agree the future proposed here would be totalitarian, but it's important to be clear that today *this is not currently a legislative proposal in the EU*. It's not been proposed, it's not being voted on, and it's not coming into force any time soon. There are two things that have been proposed: 1. Adding a temporary exemption ('derogation') within privacy regulations to ensure online service providers can scan user data for CSAM if the provider so chooses without being in breach of GDPR. In the US and elsewhere, providers who wish to do were already doing this. This just provides a quick fix to avoid GDPR from shutting down existing service provider's own child protection programs. More details: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/legislative-train/theme-promoting-our-european-way-of-life/file-temporary-derogation-from-the-e-privacy-directive-for-ott-services https://www.europarl.europa.eu/legislative-train/theme-promo... 2. Asking the EU Commission to investigate and analyze possible proposals for longer-term legislative solutions to this issue, by defining more clearly what service providers options and obligations are with regard to CSAM, and proposing various other ways the EU could protect children from abuse offline & online. The EU's summary of the overall process is at https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/policies/internal-security/child-sexual-abuse_en https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/policies/internal-security... (even more detail here: https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/system/files/2020-07/20200724_com-2020-607-commission-communication_en.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/system/files/2020-07/20200...). The details of the derogation regulations are at https://www.europarl.europa.eu/legislative-train/theme-promoting-our-european-way-of-life/file-temporary-derogation-from-the-e-privacy-directive-for-ott-services https://www.europarl.europa.eu/legislative-train/theme-promo..., and there's more detail on the commission's ongoing analysis to eventually define proposals here: https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-say/initiatives/12726-Fighting-child-sexual-abuse-detection-removal-and-reporting-of-illegal-content-online_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-sa... One _possibility_ is that the commission could propose legislation mandating scanning of all messages and AI to automatically search for grooming. Some parts of that legislative option are mentioned as ideas to be considered (see the "Inception impact assessment" PDF in the commissions analysis) alongside various other options. There's nothing suggesting that this is the leading option though. That PDF also makes detailed note of privacy concerns as topics to consider too, and the resulting public consultation on that specific assessment received a huge amount of feedback against such measures. So far, there is no proposed legislation like what's described in this video. If there were, it's likely that there would be major public outcry, and there is no indication that it would pass. It's possible the commission could propose this, but it's also very plausible that the commission proposes some other framework of obligations, which makes it clear when and how online services must scan for CSAM, without mandating searching of all private communications. For example, mandating CSAM scanning of publicly accessible content online, and mandating that private message providers include "report this message" tools to allow users to report otherwise inaccessible content by themselves. Of course, there is always the possibility that the EU could veer away from privacy protections into being a totalitarian state, sure, but nobody is currently proposing legislation along those lines. There's a wide spectrum of reasonable possibilities on the table here that would be genuine improvements. There's no need to panic about the imminent death of privacy quite yet.

tasogare 5y ago

At some point we'll have to go in Bruxelles & Strasbourg to "have a talk" with those parliamentarians and reclaim our freedom. Is this what they are searching for, to justify even harsher laws if popular revolt fails? Or just harass even more political opponents by finding them automatically? All this crap is not gonna end well...

cure 5y ago
It's not the parliament that is pushing this nonsense. It's the European Commission, which is not directly elected, that is the problem.
- deleted 5y ago
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- deleted 5y ago
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dahfizz 5y ago
I wish you luck; without the right to bear arms you are going to need it.

skratlo 5y ago

Does anyone know WHO is actually pushing this? Who is behind this? Who initially proposed it, and who is lobbying for it? Gimme names, c'mon

dane-pgp 5y ago
The intelligence agencies wouldn't be very good at their job if you knew what they were up to, would they?
raverbashing 5y ago
Ashton Kutcher. Yes, I'm serious.
AnssiH 5y ago
See the Feedback section on the initiative (https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-say/initiatives/12726-Fighting-child-sexual-abuse-detection-removal-and-reporting-of-illegal-content-online_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/have-your-sa...) for various comments from various organizations/companies, pushing for various things. As far as I can tell, no EU organ has actually published any actual proposal or recommendation to introduce such mandatory screening as described in the OP. My guess is that the actual proposal, when it comes, will not include industrywide mandatory screening or breaking end-to-end encryption.
- mod50ack 5y ago
  These wr going to actually be proposed in the fall, but it has now been pushed back to December.

say_it_as_it_is 5y ago

Every bill in politics should include a reversion migration to back out of when it fails to achieve the goal of the bill. If this is for child porn protection, 12 months from now it should be reversed when the technology gets used for other purposes.

LinuxBender 5y ago

This likely affects most people world-wide given chat platforms like Discord and Slack allow EU and non-EU citizens to chat with each other. At least they are being up front about it and giving people time to migrate to smaller self contained platforms.

pacija 5y ago
People who use anything but smaller self contained platform are in denial if they think all of their emails and IM's aren't already scanned and logged. People with knowledge and resources can and should host their own email and IM servers, on their own hardware, on their own properties. Want my emails or IMs? Get a warrant to enter my property physically and try to decrypt my disks.

Aerroon 5y ago

I don't see how this won't pass. It's the EU. In the minds of many people the EU can do no wrong. And if they do something wrong it's okay and a small thing. And if it's not a small thing then you're just a conspiracy theorist that hates democracy. In the past the EU passed a directive that required all ISPs to save what websites you visited. This was overturned years later, but it seems now they're trying again through a different angle. Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Retention_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Retention_Directive

merb 5y ago
well now it's child pornography which they use to push such things trough. all people hate child pornography, but I mean, who would use whatsapp for such things? I mean seriously what are they even thinking? making such a thing go trough a official directive probably makes things go worse, way worse. a lot of people in germany, basically do not care they thing they do not have anything to hide (which is probably right) but there are so many crimes which are just done in front of everybody and nobody did care (cum ex, wirecard, just to name some). it's like once the rich or politicans are involved they start to care.

marcodiego 5y ago

The fact that the video is posted using peertube gives me a breath of hope. Considering how it is currently not very popular, I don't have high hopes that this video will last longer than it could be had it been posted on youtube. Nevertheless, this is a step in the right direction.

eluusive 5y ago

This is definitely coming down the pipe. I think it's extremely imported to come up with an alternative to the existing centralized systems; which I believe primarily exist in order to mitigate spam. Some people have been working on an interesting solution called StampChat which has a similar topology to email, but the messages are encrypted by default and the spam mitigation is done via sending tokens to the recipient (ala Hal Finney's RPoW) idea. It's still a prototype, but there is one deployment over here: https://web.stampchat.io https://web.stampchat.io The whitepaper on the protocol is here: https://www.stampchat.io/whitepaper.pdf https://www.stampchat.io/whitepaper.pdf There's a faucet here if anyone is interested https://faucet.lotuslounge.org/ https://faucet.lotuslounge.org/ We're not doing an ICO or anything, happy to give out more tokens out.

shuntress 5y ago
> I think it's extremely imported to come up with an alternative to the existing centralized systems; which I believe primarily exist in order to mitigate spam. I think spam and abuse are definitely significant problems. The centralized systems are like medieval walled cities. They exist because, for an average individual, there is no practical way to live outside their walls. It's difficult to run your own email server. But, while the technical challenge may be difficult, the greater difficulty is in preventing your email server from becoming a bot in a spam network.
- int_19h 5y ago
  It's not all that difficult if you have the money to pay for a pre-packaged solution. https://thehelm.com/ https://thehelm.com/
- eluusive 5y ago
  Yeah, I discuss that in the whitepaper for the protocol. You might find it interesting, and it's not terribly long.

kingcharles 5y ago

We'll have to go back to the days of Echelon in the 90s where everyone stuffed their Usenet posts and emails with keywords intending to render any surveillance useless due to overwhelming number of matches.

ricardobayes 5y ago

I personally don't see anything wrong with this. If a private company would do this, sure. But the EU, no. They are non-profit and very unlikely to ever turn rogue. edit: I even welcome this change. You can dislike how you wish, I stand by my view.

int_19h 5y ago
Why not take it to its logical conclusion, and mandate cameras in every home? We'll even pinky swear that they'll only ever be used with a court warrant! And just imagine how much this would cut down on child sexual abuse...
- ricardobayes 5y ago
  What I don't get is how people growing up in free coutries can have such a distopian view of their governments. You all watched too much black mirror. If you study how the balance of powers are structured in the US/UK/EU you'll find it's nigh impossible for these countries to become totalitarian. The US even under Trump didn't become one, but he was as close to a possible dictator as it gets. How do you all go about your daily lives with such dark views on the world? Are there seriously so many doomers/preppers/anarchists out there?
  - nix23 5y ago
    Ask that rapper in Spain if he thinks he lives in a "free" country. https://www.euronews.com/2021/02/23/how-a-rapper-s-arrest-in-spain-sparked-riots-and-fierce-debate-about-freedom-of-expression https://www.euronews.com/2021/02/23/how-a-rapper-s-arrest-in... Why do you think freedom is made by the government and not the peoples?
    - ricardobayes 5y ago
      What would be your reaction if there was an American rapper who would rap day and night of say secession of Texas and glorifying a militant group whose goal is to secede Texas out of USA? And say those gangs did kill many hundred innocent people through explosions and so. Do you think the families of the victims of this militant group think it is okay to sing songs in praise of this group?

Zababa 5y ago

Sent to the US? Really? The whole idea is terrible and harmful, but this part is what surprises me the most.

dang 5y ago

Related from a few months ago: Messaging and chat control - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28115343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28115343 - Aug 2021 (317 comments) via pvg, prof-dr-ir (thanks!): EU Parliament approves mass surveillance of private communications - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27759814 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27759814 - July 2021 (11 comments) European Parliament approves mass surveillance of private communication - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27753727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27753727 - July 2021 (415 comments) Indiscriminate messaging and chatcontrol: Last chance to protest - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27736435 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27736435 - July 2021 (104 comments) IT companies warn in open letter: EU wants to ban encryption - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26825653 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26825653 - April 2021 (217 comments) Others?

pvg 5y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27759814 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27759814 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27753727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27753727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27736435 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27736435
prof-dr-ir 5y ago
IT companies warn in open letter: EU wants to ban encryption - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26825653 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26825653 - April 2021 (217 comments)
pvg 5y ago
via pvg, prof-dr-ir for a second I thought got one heckin chonker of a promotion

mackrevinack 5y ago

artificial intelligence is mentioned a few times in the video but that's not even a thing yet. what we have now are just very fancy glorified algorithms