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I find it highly ironic that in a thread about subjective evil one talks about granting more power to governments... The only institution on the planet that has

by syshum 5y ago

I find it highly ironic that in a thread about subjective evil one talks about granting more power to governments... The only institution on the planet that has granted itself the right to legally steal, plunder, and murder you... I am no fan of Google, but as much as I despise what google has become, I am do not have a rose colored view of the evil that is government to the point here I think that government could be a viable solution to the Google problem

wizzwizz4 5y ago
> The only institution on the planet that has granted itself the right to legally steal, plunder, and murder you... Rights that, legally, only have validity if people want them to. (In theory, in some countries.) In principle, Google is allowed to ignore the will of the people; in principle, the government is not.
- syshum 5y ago
  None of that is true, in fact it really is opposite. Google has to entice people into voluntary exchange, yes the power is imbalanced but it is possible to remove yourself from google, thousands have. You can not remove yourself from government, if you try they will kill you. Google will not kill you if you stop using their services if I disconnect from my city utilities, if I stop paying taxes, if I grow an unapproved plant, if I do anything the government does not like well men with guns show up... Further this idea that the government is beholden to the will of the people, even in the ever lauded (and seldom understood) "democracy" is provably false, many many studies have been done that prove the will of the people hardly ever changes the will of government so I am not sure what factual factual basis you have to claim that governments must follow the will of the people.
  - skytreader 5y ago
    > many many studies have been done that prove the will of the people hardly ever changes the will of government Studies such as? Citation needed.
    - syshum 5y ago
      https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/fi...
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    > yes the power is imbalanced but it is possible to remove yourself from google, thousands have. And I was once among them. Except actually, using Google's “services” is mandatory if I want to obtain such luxuries as food and shelter in the area where I currently reside. I was required to shell out for an Android smartphone; me paying Google money (albeit indirectly) was mandatory. > You can not remove yourself from government, if you try they will kill you. What hell-hole do you live in‽ In my country, the government doesn't have the authority to kill anyone (except the military, unfortunately, but that's in some other country). It used to, and then people decided they weren't okay with that any more, and now it doesn't. And where is disconnecting from your city utilities illegal – let alone physically enforced with guns‽ > so I am not sure what factual factual basis you have to claim that governments must follow the will of the people. I said “legally” and “in principle”. Though, in many places, the governments actually do do what the people want; look into the Pirate Party in Europe, for just one example. (Also, suffrage movements… A lot of the time the government “goes against the will of the people” is when most people are apathetic about your cause; governments prefer the status quo, because most people don't like change.) Fundamentally, I have zero say in what Google does. At least with the government, I get a vote.
    - syshum 5y ago
      >>Except actually, using Google's “services” is mandatory if I want to obtain such luxuries as food and shelter in the area where I currently reside What Hell-Hole do you live in? >>What hell-hole do you live in‽ the US >>In my country, the government doesn't have the authority to kill anyone I highly doubt that is true. >>And where is disconnecting from your city utilities illegal – I am not aware of any city in any industrialized nation that does not require all buildings that have occupancy permits to be connected to their city water, sewer systems as a condition of that occupancy permit. Thus disconnecting from said utility is illegal. Going further most US Cities require not only water / sewer connections but also Electric (and Gas if no electric heat) and Trash Services. Failure to maintain those services results in fines, then from fines you get liens, then foreclosure, then eviction, at the point of eviction is where men with guns show up... Resit them, and you die. >>At least with the government, I get a vote. Which only carries the cause in the case of the tie, there has never been a tie....
  - unyttigfjelltol 5y ago
    > Google has to entice people into voluntary exchange, yes the power is imbalanced but it is possible to remove yourself from google, thousands have. Eh, no, this is not true. I may have been in the vanguard of de-Googling ... but... For example, I go to a lookup page on a government website and they have embedded Google Re-Captcha. I disable Google scripts on e-commerce pages and it breaks unexpectedly at checkout. No, it it not possible to entirely eliminate Google, or any of the largest tech firms, from one's life.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    > Google will not kill you if you stop using their services This is only true because the government dictates it. Without government intervention, the only considerations that Google would need to have when deciding to kill or threaten to kill people who refuse to use their services would be the effects of that decision on their revenue and profits. > Further this idea that the government is beholden to the will of the people, even in the ever lauded (and seldom understood) "democracy" is provably false, many many studies have been done that prove the will of the people hardly ever changes the will of government so I am not sure what factual factual basis you have to claim that governments must follow the will of the people. This is of course true. If replacing the governance of the country with the governance of google's internal structure is something we want to do though, we should do it explicitly. I do find it contradictory that you would dismiss all possible forms of government as unfixably corrupt, yet accept the org chart of a search engine as your government.
SamBam 5y ago
I mean, that's also what the article we're discussing proposes: > Data trading for ad revenue must be regulated like finance, aviation, medicine, and power. Regulation by the government is absolutely one tool towards stopping a gigantic monopoly bending the world to its interests.
skytreader 5y ago
In a world of imperfect systems and fallible humans, it's over-idealistic to say "Don't fight evil with evil". Simplistic, even. It's a counter-productive moral high horse because you can always find dirt on any authority that can help you. Even if I believe the police is corrupt, if I get mugged on the street, you can bet I'm going to the police for help. That is not mutually exclusive to my belief that the police, as an organization, abuses power. Government granted these tech giants the necessary permits to operate (to say the least), and can penalize them based on the law. It just makes sense that the power to regulate rests on this government too. Now how government should reign in these companies is another topic and that's the part where moral vigilance comes into play.
pessimizer 5y ago
You have a basic disbelief in using law to control corporations, which are government constructs themselves?

by syshum 5y ago

wizzwizz4 5y ago

> The only institution on the planet that has granted itself the right to legally steal, plunder, and murder you... Rights that, legally, only have validity if people want them to. (In theory, in some countries.) In principle, Google is allowed to ignore the will of the people; in principle, the government is not.

syshum 5y ago
None of that is true, in fact it really is opposite. Google has to entice people into voluntary exchange, yes the power is imbalanced but it is possible to remove yourself from google, thousands have. You can not remove yourself from government, if you try they will kill you. Google will not kill you if you stop using their services if I disconnect from my city utilities, if I stop paying taxes, if I grow an unapproved plant, if I do anything the government does not like well men with guns show up... Further this idea that the government is beholden to the will of the people, even in the ever lauded (and seldom understood) "democracy" is provably false, many many studies have been done that prove the will of the people hardly ever changes the will of government so I am not sure what factual factual basis you have to claim that governments must follow the will of the people.
- skytreader 5y ago
  > many many studies have been done that prove the will of the people hardly ever changes the will of government Studies such as? Citation needed.
  - syshum 5y ago
    https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/fi...
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  > yes the power is imbalanced but it is possible to remove yourself from google, thousands have. And I was once among them. Except actually, using Google's “services” is mandatory if I want to obtain such luxuries as food and shelter in the area where I currently reside. I was required to shell out for an Android smartphone; me paying Google money (albeit indirectly) was mandatory. > You can not remove yourself from government, if you try they will kill you. What hell-hole do you live in‽ In my country, the government doesn't have the authority to kill anyone (except the military, unfortunately, but that's in some other country). It used to, and then people decided they weren't okay with that any more, and now it doesn't. And where is disconnecting from your city utilities illegal – let alone physically enforced with guns‽ > so I am not sure what factual factual basis you have to claim that governments must follow the will of the people. I said “legally” and “in principle”. Though, in many places, the governments actually do do what the people want; look into the Pirate Party in Europe, for just one example. (Also, suffrage movements… A lot of the time the government “goes against the will of the people” is when most people are apathetic about your cause; governments prefer the status quo, because most people don't like change.) Fundamentally, I have zero say in what Google does. At least with the government, I get a vote.
  - syshum 5y ago
    >>Except actually, using Google's “services” is mandatory if I want to obtain such luxuries as food and shelter in the area where I currently reside What Hell-Hole do you live in? >>What hell-hole do you live in‽ the US >>In my country, the government doesn't have the authority to kill anyone I highly doubt that is true. >>And where is disconnecting from your city utilities illegal – I am not aware of any city in any industrialized nation that does not require all buildings that have occupancy permits to be connected to their city water, sewer systems as a condition of that occupancy permit. Thus disconnecting from said utility is illegal. Going further most US Cities require not only water / sewer connections but also Electric (and Gas if no electric heat) and Trash Services. Failure to maintain those services results in fines, then from fines you get liens, then foreclosure, then eviction, at the point of eviction is where men with guns show up... Resit them, and you die. >>At least with the government, I get a vote. Which only carries the cause in the case of the tie, there has never been a tie....
- unyttigfjelltol 5y ago
  > Google has to entice people into voluntary exchange, yes the power is imbalanced but it is possible to remove yourself from google, thousands have. Eh, no, this is not true. I may have been in the vanguard of de-Googling ... but... For example, I go to a lookup page on a government website and they have embedded Google Re-Captcha. I disable Google scripts on e-commerce pages and it breaks unexpectedly at checkout. No, it it not possible to entirely eliminate Google, or any of the largest tech firms, from one's life.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  > Google will not kill you if you stop using their services This is only true because the government dictates it. Without government intervention, the only considerations that Google would need to have when deciding to kill or threaten to kill people who refuse to use their services would be the effects of that decision on their revenue and profits. > Further this idea that the government is beholden to the will of the people, even in the ever lauded (and seldom understood) "democracy" is provably false, many many studies have been done that prove the will of the people hardly ever changes the will of government so I am not sure what factual factual basis you have to claim that governments must follow the will of the people. This is of course true. If replacing the governance of the country with the governance of google's internal structure is something we want to do though, we should do it explicitly. I do find it contradictory that you would dismiss all possible forms of government as unfixably corrupt, yet accept the org chart of a search engine as your government.

SamBam 5y ago

I mean, that's also what the article we're discussing proposes: > Data trading for ad revenue must be regulated like finance, aviation, medicine, and power. Regulation by the government is absolutely one tool towards stopping a gigantic monopoly bending the world to its interests.

skytreader 5y ago

In a world of imperfect systems and fallible humans, it's over-idealistic to say "Don't fight evil with evil". Simplistic, even. It's a counter-productive moral high horse because you can always find dirt on any authority that can help you. Even if I believe the police is corrupt, if I get mugged on the street, you can bet I'm going to the police for help. That is not mutually exclusive to my belief that the police, as an organization, abuses power. Government granted these tech giants the necessary permits to operate (to say the least), and can penalize them based on the law. It just makes sense that the power to regulate rests on this government too. Now how government should reign in these companies is another topic and that's the part where moral vigilance comes into play.

pessimizer 5y ago

You have a basic disbelief in using law to control corporations, which are government constructs themselves?