7 ms·

The GPL however isn't theirs.

chungy 5y ago
Oracle is in a nice position where they could discontinue or relicense OpenJDK, much in the way they did to OpenSolaris. Let's be grateful they haven't done so yet. I'm not convinced there is sufficient talent to carry on OpenJDK without Oracle (contrary to the OpenSolaris→illumos situation).
- Hello71 5y ago
  i don't think that's consistent with history. there used to be a large number of Java implementations; by far the biggest reason why they (almost) all died out is because Sun agreed to open up their implementation. IBM still maintains J9, and while that's only part of a full Java implementation, I don't see any reason why Apache Harmony or GNU Classpath couldn't be revived and combined with it for a high-performance Oracle-less Java implementation. there is major precedent for this in the form of GNU/Linux, where substantial parts of the userspace are provided by GNU, but the kernel is a separate project.
- phendrenad2 5y ago
  > Let's be grateful they haven't done so yet Why? Wouldn't the community come together and implement any features Oracle tries to lock away in their proprietary version?
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    I really would like to see all the haters prove me wrong.
    - oaiey 5y ago
      Same with .NET. The stunt Microsoft pulled a week ago made me think that .NET needs a OpenJDK-like model ... until I realized that without the 200 devs from Microsoft no one will care enough to continue developing .NET. Surprised that Java is in the same position.
      - __d 5y ago
        This is the lesson. In 2021, corporate Open Source is often just a response to the market pressure of genuine FOSS. If there's no community-based product, then users are always at the whim of the dominant company, and they can choose to leverage that dominance at any time.
      - ksec 5y ago
        It is Basic Business and Market 101. Most continue to believe in good faith will continue to push Open Source. In reality it is the stark opposite. The same people who believe Linux will take over Windows on Desktop for 20 years. I am still surprised human dont learn much from history.
  - IshKebab 5y ago
    Well that's what you hope would happen. Is there even still a big Java community? Android is by far the biggest community of users and they have moved on to Kotlin.
    - krinchan 5y ago
      You’re confusing language with the compiled bytecode virtual machine that it runs on. OpenJDK underpins almost all of the VMs out there. Sure Android has it’s own JVM, but kotlin, scala, closure, jruby, jython, and more all still need to be compiled against a JVM and then run inside it. All non-android JVMs depend heavily on OpenJDK.
      - arlcode 5y ago
        Also a lot of backend shops use Java or JVM backed services
      - IshKebab 5y ago
        I'm not confusing them. I am aware that all JVM languages depend on a JVM implementation to run. But the point is that if Oracle lock away OpenJDK then updates to the Java language are effectively closed source. That's a separate problem to supporting Kotlin etc. To put it another way, I'm sure the Kotlin community is big enough to continue developing/maintaining their own JVM implementation (or just use the Android one). I don't think the Java community (that is, people who contribute to open source Java code; not just enterprises that use Java) is big enough to continue development of the Java language.
    - kdtsh 5y ago
      There is an enormous Java community, Java is the language of enterprise. But there are not many JVM developers, and most (all?) developers of the Java language work for Oracle. The only natural candidates I can think of would be Google or Eclipse Foundation. I don’t see Google picking up development as very likely given their legal history with Oracle, and I think Eclipse Foundation would very quickly become stretched unless organisations like IBM are able to lend money and developers. That being said, I think one of the more exciting futures for Java involves Eclipse taking a leading role in the development of the language and the reference JDK. I view them as the most important non-profit working in the Java ecosystem, and they are already stewards of Jakarta EE.
  - chungy 5y ago
    Oracle has done the precise opposite: they've open sourced or removed all proprietary features in Java. Actions speak loudly.
  - native_samples 5y ago
    Maybe - Red Hat have been doing more and more serious development lately, and (surprisingly) Microsoft are also stepping up to the table. I'm talking about whole new GCs, compiler changes, etc. Plus there's GraalVM. Graal and OpenJDK are actually totally separate teams inside Oracle, who compete with each other! They have different licensing, versioning etc models too. And they've written an entire JIT compiler from scratch, which other firms are also developing expertise in (Twitter, Spotify). So even if OpenJDK changed a lot, that wouldn't necessarily imply Graal would change too.
- nextaccountic 5y ago
  Since it's GPLed, it can just be forked, though.

Oracle is in a nice position where they could discontinue or relicense OpenJDK, much in the way they did to OpenSolaris. Let's be grateful they haven't done so yet. I'm not convinced there is sufficient talent to carry on OpenJDK without Oracle (contrary to the OpenSolaris→illumos situation).

Hello71 5y ago
i don't think that's consistent with history. there used to be a large number of Java implementations; by far the biggest reason why they (almost) all died out is because Sun agreed to open up their implementation. IBM still maintains J9, and while that's only part of a full Java implementation, I don't see any reason why Apache Harmony or GNU Classpath couldn't be revived and combined with it for a high-performance Oracle-less Java implementation. there is major precedent for this in the form of GNU/Linux, where substantial parts of the userspace are provided by GNU, but the kernel is a separate project.
phendrenad2 5y ago
> Let's be grateful they haven't done so yet Why? Wouldn't the community come together and implement any features Oracle tries to lock away in their proprietary version?
- pjmlp 5y ago
  I really would like to see all the haters prove me wrong.
  - oaiey 5y ago
    Same with .NET. The stunt Microsoft pulled a week ago made me think that .NET needs a OpenJDK-like model ... until I realized that without the 200 devs from Microsoft no one will care enough to continue developing .NET. Surprised that Java is in the same position.
    - __d 5y ago
      This is the lesson. In 2021, corporate Open Source is often just a response to the market pressure of genuine FOSS. If there's no community-based product, then users are always at the whim of the dominant company, and they can choose to leverage that dominance at any time.
    - ksec 5y ago
      It is Basic Business and Market 101. Most continue to believe in good faith will continue to push Open Source. In reality it is the stark opposite. The same people who believe Linux will take over Windows on Desktop for 20 years. I am still surprised human dont learn much from history.
- IshKebab 5y ago
  Well that's what you hope would happen. Is there even still a big Java community? Android is by far the biggest community of users and they have moved on to Kotlin.
  - krinchan 5y ago
    You’re confusing language with the compiled bytecode virtual machine that it runs on. OpenJDK underpins almost all of the VMs out there. Sure Android has it’s own JVM, but kotlin, scala, closure, jruby, jython, and more all still need to be compiled against a JVM and then run inside it. All non-android JVMs depend heavily on OpenJDK.
    - arlcode 5y ago
      Also a lot of backend shops use Java or JVM backed services
    - IshKebab 5y ago
      I'm not confusing them. I am aware that all JVM languages depend on a JVM implementation to run. But the point is that if Oracle lock away OpenJDK then updates to the Java language are effectively closed source. That's a separate problem to supporting Kotlin etc. To put it another way, I'm sure the Kotlin community is big enough to continue developing/maintaining their own JVM implementation (or just use the Android one). I don't think the Java community (that is, people who contribute to open source Java code; not just enterprises that use Java) is big enough to continue development of the Java language.
  - kdtsh 5y ago
    There is an enormous Java community, Java is the language of enterprise. But there are not many JVM developers, and most (all?) developers of the Java language work for Oracle. The only natural candidates I can think of would be Google or Eclipse Foundation. I don’t see Google picking up development as very likely given their legal history with Oracle, and I think Eclipse Foundation would very quickly become stretched unless organisations like IBM are able to lend money and developers. That being said, I think one of the more exciting futures for Java involves Eclipse taking a leading role in the development of the language and the reference JDK. I view them as the most important non-profit working in the Java ecosystem, and they are already stewards of Jakarta EE.
- chungy 5y ago
  Oracle has done the precise opposite: they've open sourced or removed all proprietary features in Java. Actions speak loudly.
- native_samples 5y ago
  Maybe - Red Hat have been doing more and more serious development lately, and (surprisingly) Microsoft are also stepping up to the table. I'm talking about whole new GCs, compiler changes, etc. Plus there's GraalVM. Graal and OpenJDK are actually totally separate teams inside Oracle, who compete with each other! They have different licensing, versioning etc models too. And they've written an entire JIT compiler from scratch, which other firms are also developing expertise in (Twitter, Spotify). So even if OpenJDK changed a lot, that wouldn't necessarily imply Graal would change too.
nextaccountic 5y ago
Since it's GPLed, it can just be forked, though.