8 ms·

Yeah, right. As if I'm ever going to allow anything Java-related on anything I manage again. "This application requires JRE #" -- end-user Googles JRE # and do

Yeah, right. As if I'm ever going to allow anything Java-related on anything I manage again. "This application requires JRE #" -- end-user Googles JRE # and downloads/installs it. End-user organization gets sued by Oracle lawyers for 10K site licenses for JRE #. Sure, they COULD have downloaded OpenFerretMongrelAsphalt JRE Pi, but yet, here we are...

kaba0 5y ago
Citation needed. Oracle JRE was free for personal use.
- jimbob45 5y ago
  Oracle has proven themselves to be a litigious organization. You're not wrong that there are probably safe ways to interact with their organization's products but why bother when there are alternatives from companies that don't have such dirty legal histories?
- tinus_hn 5y ago
  But is use in a commercial environment personal use?
listenallyall 5y ago
You don't have to like (or use) Java or Oracle to recognize the JVM is an incredible platform to build upon. > OpenFerretMongrelAsphalt Ignorance is bliss, I guess. Your loss.
- nightfly 5y ago
  It went from Java to OpenJDK, to Eclipse Temurin (formerly OpenJDK from Eclipse Adoptium) or something. If that doesn't seem like a big mess to use I don't know what to tell you
  - frant-hartm 5y ago
    If you follow Java & ecosystem at least a bit you needed to read one or two blog posts from reputable community members to figure out what the situation is and what to use. To compare I find a licensing situation on mid-size (50+ direct dependencies) or larger project much harder to comprehend - you need to figure out what licenses are used, if they can be used at all due to the requirements and company's policy, if they are compatible with each other and what's required for distribution.
    - tyingq 5y ago
      It is confusing from the outside though, trying to decide if you should use Java from your distro, from Oracle, Azul, Amazon Corretto, AdoptOpenJDK, Eclipse Temurin, or Red Hat OpenJDK. Which ones have might have builds for your various platforms, what support they might offer, how closely they track OpenJDK, etc. One good example is what is meant by "LTS". You get different answers to that question depending on which JDK it is.[1] I don't remember another language where it was ever this confusing. [1] More detail: https://www.javacodegeeks.com/2019/07/long-term-support-mean-openjdk.html https://www.javacodegeeks.com/2019/07/long-term-support-mean...
      - listenallyall 5y ago
        I mean, just picking the best Linux distro for you or your company's particular use case is more confusing than this.
        tyingq 5y ago
        Linux was like that almost from day one, so it's expected. It's much less expected for a language.
        listenallyall 5y ago
        The JVM isn't a language. Kotlin, Scala, Clojure, and Java are languages. I'm quite pleased there are an abundance of options when picking a runtime. Yes, Oracle has not been a good steward, so having numerous open and free alternatives is a positive thing.
- Am_I_Right 5y ago
  Oh, yes, silly ignorant me. Real-world scenario: someone downloads the Ubiquiti network management software. It requires end-users to download JRE v8 (and nothing else: it won't work). And, once end-users do that, they get sued by Oracle. But, I'm just soooooo ignorant...
kstrauser 5y ago
Yep. It’s safest to classify using Oracle software as a business risk. After a due diligence evaluation it may be an acceptable risk, but you darned well better research it before assuming everything will be fine.
foepys 5y ago
Isn't the recommended way of distributing Java applications nowadays to bundle a custom JRE with it? Wasn't project jigsaw especially created to be able to just bundle libraries and/or classes the application requires instead of the whole JRE?
- tadfisher 5y ago
  Yes. The official stance of the OpenJDK organization is that there is no such thing as a "JRE" anymore, and applications are expected to use jlink or similar to bundle a customized Java runtime. The distributions that matter here are for the JDK, which simply provides the "full" Java runtime along with developer tools such as javac and jlink.
- Am_I_Right 5y ago
  Yup, you go and explain that to, say. Ubiquiti. Their network management software still requires end-users to download JRE v8 (and noothing else: it won't work). And, once end-users do that, they get sued by Oracle. But, serves them right, right?
  - easton 5y ago
    Install OpenJDK's v8 JRE instead. sudo apt-get install openjdk-8-jre-headless -y on ubuntu. Works fine with UniFi Controller. (what do you think they use on the cloud key?)
  - kaba0 5y ago
    Yeah I can all hear the millions of people being sued for downloading JRE. Where are they?
tinus_hn 5y ago
Similarly the VirtualBox plugin package Trojan horse.
- spicybright 5y ago
  What is that?
  - saxonww 5y ago
    VirtualBox is GPL2, but the 'extension pack' is under a personal use and evaluation license that doesn't cover commercial use. You're supposed to buy an Enterprise license for that. The extension pack covers "Support for USB 2.0 and USB 3.0 devices, VirtualBox RDP, disk encryption, NVMe and PXE boot for Intel cards." according to the website.
    - johannes1234321 5y ago
      My understanding of those (thus maybe wrong) is, that they are built on too of third party licensed code and patents. Thus opensourcing is hard and would require reimplementation. Thus choice is this model or nothing. One could also create those modules as open source versions, but there doesn't seem to be enough interest by independent folks ...
      - tinus_hn 5y ago
        One could also make it not ‘free to download but we might sue your enterprise if it’s used on your network’. The choice is not ‘this model or nothing’, Oracle is about the only company this aggressive.
      - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
        There most certainly is a world of options between "all open source" and "aggressively litigious jerks". https://www.theregister.com/2019/10/04/oracle_virtualbox_merula/ https://www.theregister.com/2019/10/04/oracle_virtualbox_mer...
      - 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
vips7L 5y ago
This isn't how Java works anymore. The developers are supposed to be packaging the JVM with their application.
- d0mine 5y ago
  For some languages developers package a whole browser for their app.
- elric 5y ago
  No, they're not. It's a silly idea with a pretty specific target audience. Most shops don't have time to waste on keeping their customers' JVM up to date by re-releasing their applications with new JVMs. This feature is mostly useful when you want to ship a particularly stripped down version of the JVM for footprint reasons.
  - blandflakes 5y ago
    With docker, effectively we're ending up in that world anyway (lamentable though I find it).
billyjobob 5y ago
The JRE hasn't existed since Java 10.
- Am_I_Right 5y ago
  Oh, sorry for being so dumb. I'm just an Ubiquiti customer wanting to download the JRE v8 that their software requires. Guess I should just... use LISP to write my own solution? I don't know, again, I'm just ignorant and dumb, apparently...

kaba0 5y ago

Citation needed. Oracle JRE was free for personal use.

jimbob45 5y ago
Oracle has proven themselves to be a litigious organization. You're not wrong that there are probably safe ways to interact with their organization's products but why bother when there are alternatives from companies that don't have such dirty legal histories?
tinus_hn 5y ago
But is use in a commercial environment personal use?

listenallyall 5y ago

You don't have to like (or use) Java or Oracle to recognize the JVM is an incredible platform to build upon. > OpenFerretMongrelAsphalt Ignorance is bliss, I guess. Your loss.

nightfly 5y ago
It went from Java to OpenJDK, to Eclipse Temurin (formerly OpenJDK from Eclipse Adoptium) or something. If that doesn't seem like a big mess to use I don't know what to tell you
- frant-hartm 5y ago
  If you follow Java & ecosystem at least a bit you needed to read one or two blog posts from reputable community members to figure out what the situation is and what to use. To compare I find a licensing situation on mid-size (50+ direct dependencies) or larger project much harder to comprehend - you need to figure out what licenses are used, if they can be used at all due to the requirements and company's policy, if they are compatible with each other and what's required for distribution.
  - tyingq 5y ago
    It is confusing from the outside though, trying to decide if you should use Java from your distro, from Oracle, Azul, Amazon Corretto, AdoptOpenJDK, Eclipse Temurin, or Red Hat OpenJDK. Which ones have might have builds for your various platforms, what support they might offer, how closely they track OpenJDK, etc. One good example is what is meant by "LTS". You get different answers to that question depending on which JDK it is.[1] I don't remember another language where it was ever this confusing. [1] More detail: https://www.javacodegeeks.com/2019/07/long-term-support-mean-openjdk.html https://www.javacodegeeks.com/2019/07/long-term-support-mean...
    - listenallyall 5y ago
      I mean, just picking the best Linux distro for you or your company's particular use case is more confusing than this.
      - tyingq 5y ago
        Linux was like that almost from day one, so it's expected. It's much less expected for a language.
        listenallyall 5y ago
        The JVM isn't a language. Kotlin, Scala, Clojure, and Java are languages. I'm quite pleased there are an abundance of options when picking a runtime. Yes, Oracle has not been a good steward, so having numerous open and free alternatives is a positive thing.
Am_I_Right 5y ago
Oh, yes, silly ignorant me. Real-world scenario: someone downloads the Ubiquiti network management software. It requires end-users to download JRE v8 (and nothing else: it won't work). And, once end-users do that, they get sued by Oracle. But, I'm just soooooo ignorant...

kstrauser 5y ago

Yep. It’s safest to classify using Oracle software as a business risk. After a due diligence evaluation it may be an acceptable risk, but you darned well better research it before assuming everything will be fine.

foepys 5y ago

Isn't the recommended way of distributing Java applications nowadays to bundle a custom JRE with it? Wasn't project jigsaw especially created to be able to just bundle libraries and/or classes the application requires instead of the whole JRE?

tadfisher 5y ago
Yes. The official stance of the OpenJDK organization is that there is no such thing as a "JRE" anymore, and applications are expected to use jlink or similar to bundle a customized Java runtime. The distributions that matter here are for the JDK, which simply provides the "full" Java runtime along with developer tools such as javac and jlink.
Am_I_Right 5y ago
Yup, you go and explain that to, say. Ubiquiti. Their network management software still requires end-users to download JRE v8 (and noothing else: it won't work). And, once end-users do that, they get sued by Oracle. But, serves them right, right?
- easton 5y ago
  Install OpenJDK's v8 JRE instead. sudo apt-get install openjdk-8-jre-headless -y on ubuntu. Works fine with UniFi Controller. (what do you think they use on the cloud key?)
- kaba0 5y ago
  Yeah I can all hear the millions of people being sued for downloading JRE. Where are they?

tinus_hn 5y ago

Similarly the VirtualBox plugin package Trojan horse.

spicybright 5y ago
What is that?
- saxonww 5y ago
  VirtualBox is GPL2, but the 'extension pack' is under a personal use and evaluation license that doesn't cover commercial use. You're supposed to buy an Enterprise license for that. The extension pack covers "Support for USB 2.0 and USB 3.0 devices, VirtualBox RDP, disk encryption, NVMe and PXE boot for Intel cards." according to the website.
  - johannes1234321 5y ago
    My understanding of those (thus maybe wrong) is, that they are built on too of third party licensed code and patents. Thus opensourcing is hard and would require reimplementation. Thus choice is this model or nothing. One could also create those modules as open source versions, but there doesn't seem to be enough interest by independent folks ...
    - tinus_hn 5y ago
      One could also make it not ‘free to download but we might sue your enterprise if it’s used on your network’. The choice is not ‘this model or nothing’, Oracle is about the only company this aggressive.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
      There most certainly is a world of options between "all open source" and "aggressively litigious jerks". https://www.theregister.com/2019/10/04/oracle_virtualbox_merula/ https://www.theregister.com/2019/10/04/oracle_virtualbox_mer...
    - 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

vips7L 5y ago

This isn't how Java works anymore. The developers are supposed to be packaging the JVM with their application.

d0mine 5y ago
For some languages developers package a whole browser for their app.
elric 5y ago
No, they're not. It's a silly idea with a pretty specific target audience. Most shops don't have time to waste on keeping their customers' JVM up to date by re-releasing their applications with new JVMs. This feature is mostly useful when you want to ship a particularly stripped down version of the JVM for footprint reasons.
- blandflakes 5y ago
  With docker, effectively we're ending up in that world anyway (lamentable though I find it).

billyjobob 5y ago

The JRE hasn't existed since Java 10.

Am_I_Right 5y ago
Oh, sorry for being so dumb. I'm just an Ubiquiti customer wanting to download the JRE v8 that their software requires. Guess I should just... use LISP to write my own solution? I don't know, again, I'm just ignorant and dumb, apparently...