4 ms·

On the other hand there are things like this: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/upperstory/spintronics-build-mechanical-circuits https://www.kickstarter.com

On the other hand there are things like this: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/upperstory/spintronics-build-mechanical-circuits https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/upperstory/spintronics-... Now it will be up-to parents to decide whether they want to bring up an iPhone consumer kid or more of a PC creative kid.

amelius 5y ago
Side note. How is an iPhone not a "personal" computer?
- TeMPOraL 5y ago
  It's not about being a personal computer. An iPhone may be personal, but it's hardly a computer. I mean, technically it is, but then so is the microwave timer controller. In terms of user interaction, an iPhone does its best to be an appliance, not a general-purpose computer. So do Android smartphones - lest one thing it's an Apple problem, it's not. It's a modern computing problem.
  - grishka 5y ago
    > So do Android smartphones At least you get to run arbitrary software on them as a standard feature. And on many, the bootloader is unlockable, so you could root the thing and/or tinker with the OS. The modern computing problem isn't this particular thing, it lies higher. It's presuming that the user is stupid and can't possibly be trusted with figuring stuff out and making their own informed decisions. Won't be surprised if people who design software like this consider every setting a liability.
    - TeMPOraL 5y ago
      > The modern computing problem isn't this particular thing, it lies higher. It's presuming that the user is stupid and can't possibly be trusted with figuring stuff out and making their own informed decisions. I agree with that. It's pretty much an unquestioned axiom in the industry. You can see it mentioned in almost every article or book about writing software, doing UI design or UX work. The user is stupid. They're incapable of thinking for themselves, figuring things out, having their own goals. They have to be carefully guided so they follow the exact path the software prescribes for them, and incentivized along the way with "engagement patterns", lest they get bored mid way. > Won't be surprised if people who design software like this consider every setting a liability. Which is funny, because the first thing every single piece of software on this planet does, is disclaiming any and all liability for anything. So the kind of liability they feel, I believe, is just that of getting bad press over some reviewers deciding something is too confusing, leading to reduced sales.
    - matheusmoreira 5y ago
      > It's presuming that the user is stupid and can't possibly be trusted with figuring stuff out and making their own informed decisions. It's even more malicious than that. The corporations and governments are hostile towards users. They lock the computer down so we can't do anything that harms business and government interests. Can't copy or share files. Can't use strong cryptography the government can't crack. These people believe computers are too subversive to allow the masses unrestricted access to them. They would rather we have nothing but restricted appliances that obey them instead of us. The computer doesn't serve us, it serves them as a tool to control us.
    - autoexec 5y ago
      An Android phone is primarily a device for media consumption and the collection of your personal data, but it can be tricked into being more than that. Without rooting it you can install a terminal and use it to learn some perl or python. There's no reason why you couldn't do that with an iphone except Apple not wanting you to. The capabilities are there, but it's not what those devices are for any more than a toaster is a gaming PC just because you can hack it enough to get Doom to run. If someone is going to develop creativity and tech skills using a smartphone it'll be despite their device not because of it.
      - grishka 5y ago
        Though unlocking the bootloader isn't what I would call hacking. It's a feature deliberately built into many devices. Jailbreaking iOS, on the other hand, is hacking, because it inevitably involves exploiting a vulnerability to take over the system.
      - notriddle 5y ago
        There’s always jsbin. It’s sandboxed, but it’s Turing complete.
- dabeeeenster 5y ago
  Please stop
- grishka 5y ago
  It's a general-purpose computer inside but it was intentionally handicapped by Apple to be an appliance that only does what Apple approves of.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  The iPhone is a personal device but it's not a computer. It merely has a computer inside it. What sets it apart from a real computer is the fact it only does what manufacturer designed it to do. They're the ones programming the computer, not the users. So the iPhone is just a device that does cool things. Like one of those nice electronic watches with a ton of cool functions but you get to download new features from Apple's store.
prideout 5y ago
The Spintronics video mentions the simulation of resistors, capacitors, batteries...but not logic gates. It doesn't seem to teach the magic of boolean logic at all, which is a bit disappointing. (but not as disappointing as the Fisher Price music player!)
- xyzzy123 5y ago
  For that, you want turing tumble (which was released first, by the same team).
- anonu 5y ago
  There are transistors. You can string a few of those together and get any logic gate you want...
Philip-J-Fry 5y ago
That is such an amazing idea. Wish I had kids so I could learn with them!
mhb 5y ago
Or "DIY Hand-cranked Music Box Wooden Box + Hole Puncher + Paper Tapes": https://www.ebay.com/itm/182794446978 https://www.ebay.com/itm/182794446978
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  I think Fisher-Price's target market would destroy that product in a heartbeat. My 15-month old can't even be left alone with a paper book!
tarsinge 5y ago
Tinkering with a computer is not the only real creativity, you can also actually use it. GarageBand would have been a dream when I was a child.
AussieWog93 5y ago
I honestly don't see these explicitly-teach-your-kids-STEM products solving the problem. They're unaffordable for most parents, they're narrow in scope, and there's a good chance your kid won't even like them. It reminds me a bit of Oliver's, a fast food chain in Australia. They set up shop at roadhouses along major highways, and market themselves as a healthy alternative to McDonalds or KFC. You look at the menu, though, and it consists of organic acai berries, quinoa, antioxidant-rich kale smoothies and the like. They've hyper-optimised their brand's goal/mission to the point where the product is unapproachable and unaffordable for most consumers. All we want is chicken and rice, but our choice is between a double bacon cheeseburger or an overpriced organic bliss bowl.
- musicale 5y ago
  > our choice is between a double bacon cheeseburger or an overpriced organic bliss bowl If you ever fly to (the US via) SFO, perhaps check out Amy's at terminal 1B: https://amysdrivethru.com https://amysdrivethru.com (Technically I think you cannot/should not drive through the airport location.)
  - bagels 5y ago
    I don't see chicken on the menu, but it does offer things you could consider an actual meal, and definitely better than just acai berries.
    - AussieWog93 5y ago
      Yeah, it doesn't seem super healthy, but seems genuinely really tasty. If I was on holidays in the US, I don't think I'd be looking for healthier options as much as I'd want BBQ sauce, ribs and burgers.

amelius 5y ago

Side note. How is an iPhone not a "personal" computer?

TeMPOraL 5y ago
It's not about being a personal computer. An iPhone may be personal, but it's hardly a computer. I mean, technically it is, but then so is the microwave timer controller. In terms of user interaction, an iPhone does its best to be an appliance, not a general-purpose computer. So do Android smartphones - lest one thing it's an Apple problem, it's not. It's a modern computing problem.
- grishka 5y ago
  > So do Android smartphones At least you get to run arbitrary software on them as a standard feature. And on many, the bootloader is unlockable, so you could root the thing and/or tinker with the OS. The modern computing problem isn't this particular thing, it lies higher. It's presuming that the user is stupid and can't possibly be trusted with figuring stuff out and making their own informed decisions. Won't be surprised if people who design software like this consider every setting a liability.
  - TeMPOraL 5y ago
    > The modern computing problem isn't this particular thing, it lies higher. It's presuming that the user is stupid and can't possibly be trusted with figuring stuff out and making their own informed decisions. I agree with that. It's pretty much an unquestioned axiom in the industry. You can see it mentioned in almost every article or book about writing software, doing UI design or UX work. The user is stupid. They're incapable of thinking for themselves, figuring things out, having their own goals. They have to be carefully guided so they follow the exact path the software prescribes for them, and incentivized along the way with "engagement patterns", lest they get bored mid way. > Won't be surprised if people who design software like this consider every setting a liability. Which is funny, because the first thing every single piece of software on this planet does, is disclaiming any and all liability for anything. So the kind of liability they feel, I believe, is just that of getting bad press over some reviewers deciding something is too confusing, leading to reduced sales.
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    > It's presuming that the user is stupid and can't possibly be trusted with figuring stuff out and making their own informed decisions. It's even more malicious than that. The corporations and governments are hostile towards users. They lock the computer down so we can't do anything that harms business and government interests. Can't copy or share files. Can't use strong cryptography the government can't crack. These people believe computers are too subversive to allow the masses unrestricted access to them. They would rather we have nothing but restricted appliances that obey them instead of us. The computer doesn't serve us, it serves them as a tool to control us.
  - autoexec 5y ago
    An Android phone is primarily a device for media consumption and the collection of your personal data, but it can be tricked into being more than that. Without rooting it you can install a terminal and use it to learn some perl or python. There's no reason why you couldn't do that with an iphone except Apple not wanting you to. The capabilities are there, but it's not what those devices are for any more than a toaster is a gaming PC just because you can hack it enough to get Doom to run. If someone is going to develop creativity and tech skills using a smartphone it'll be despite their device not because of it.
    - grishka 5y ago
      Though unlocking the bootloader isn't what I would call hacking. It's a feature deliberately built into many devices. Jailbreaking iOS, on the other hand, is hacking, because it inevitably involves exploiting a vulnerability to take over the system.
    - notriddle 5y ago
      There’s always jsbin. It’s sandboxed, but it’s Turing complete.
dabeeeenster 5y ago
Please stop
grishka 5y ago
It's a general-purpose computer inside but it was intentionally handicapped by Apple to be an appliance that only does what Apple approves of.
matheusmoreira 5y ago
The iPhone is a personal device but it's not a computer. It merely has a computer inside it. What sets it apart from a real computer is the fact it only does what manufacturer designed it to do. They're the ones programming the computer, not the users. So the iPhone is just a device that does cool things. Like one of those nice electronic watches with a ton of cool functions but you get to download new features from Apple's store.

prideout 5y ago

The Spintronics video mentions the simulation of resistors, capacitors, batteries...but not logic gates. It doesn't seem to teach the magic of boolean logic at all, which is a bit disappointing. (but not as disappointing as the Fisher Price music player!)

xyzzy123 5y ago
For that, you want turing tumble (which was released first, by the same team).
anonu 5y ago
There are transistors. You can string a few of those together and get any logic gate you want...

Philip-J-Fry 5y ago

That is such an amazing idea. Wish I had kids so I could learn with them!

mhb 5y ago

Or "DIY Hand-cranked Music Box Wooden Box + Hole Puncher + Paper Tapes": https://www.ebay.com/itm/182794446978 https://www.ebay.com/itm/182794446978

AussieWog93 5y ago
I think Fisher-Price's target market would destroy that product in a heartbeat. My 15-month old can't even be left alone with a paper book!

tarsinge 5y ago

Tinkering with a computer is not the only real creativity, you can also actually use it. GarageBand would have been a dream when I was a child.

AussieWog93 5y ago

I honestly don't see these explicitly-teach-your-kids-STEM products solving the problem. They're unaffordable for most parents, they're narrow in scope, and there's a good chance your kid won't even like them. It reminds me a bit of Oliver's, a fast food chain in Australia. They set up shop at roadhouses along major highways, and market themselves as a healthy alternative to McDonalds or KFC. You look at the menu, though, and it consists of organic acai berries, quinoa, antioxidant-rich kale smoothies and the like. They've hyper-optimised their brand's goal/mission to the point where the product is unapproachable and unaffordable for most consumers. All we want is chicken and rice, but our choice is between a double bacon cheeseburger or an overpriced organic bliss bowl.

musicale 5y ago
> our choice is between a double bacon cheeseburger or an overpriced organic bliss bowl If you ever fly to (the US via) SFO, perhaps check out Amy's at terminal 1B: https://amysdrivethru.com https://amysdrivethru.com (Technically I think you cannot/should not drive through the airport location.)
- bagels 5y ago
  I don't see chicken on the menu, but it does offer things you could consider an actual meal, and definitely better than just acai berries.
  - AussieWog93 5y ago
    Yeah, it doesn't seem super healthy, but seems genuinely really tasty. If I was on holidays in the US, I don't think I'd be looking for healthier options as much as I'd want BBQ sauce, ribs and burgers.