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Interesting to see the continued interest in G100UL on Hacker News. Personally I'm ecstatic to soon be able to run unleaded. I'm curious to know if this is indi

Interesting to see the continued interest in G100UL on Hacker News. Personally I'm ecstatic to soon be able to run unleaded. I'm curious to know if this is indicative of a broader (politically-relevant?) interest in getting lead out of GA, or just the sort of specialist topic that tends to interest HNers. It's interesting (but not unexpected in hindsight) that this new slew of approvals (generally) only impacts engines previously approved for low-octane unleaded fuels (e.g., 94UL). Even smaller engines like the Lycoming IO-360 (except the derated -L2A) aren't approved despite only modest power increases over the O-360. At any rate if GAMI is to be believed this is all academic because the final set of approvals should come out before G100UL is practically available anyway.

VLM 5y ago
The entire topic is a virtue signalers paradise. Insert unscientific outrage in the vending machine, get free karma. No need to know anything about the specific topic or the environment or chemistry or aviation or statistics to get that sweet karma.
base698 5y ago
If it hasn't been out five years you're a test pilot.
drzoltar 5y ago
I think a big factor here is the sentiment of people who live near small airports. The noise is already an issue. At least now there won’t be lead raining down on the neighborhood, so maybe less petitions to close the airport. As well, every time I test the fuel on a Cessna it inevitably sprays everywhere so there’s that worry too.
- downrightmike 5y ago
  If you look at Chandler Az's small airport, you'll see it is now in the middle of a dense sprawl of suburbs, who no doubt have no idea leaded fuel it burnt over their heads day and night. Minimum house price in the areas wasn't less that $500k last time I looked, and those were few. Intel is just to the west. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Chandler+Municipal+Airport/@33.2793057,-111.8499411,12.75z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x872baafcb69fb1b3:0x6347ef40ce6a7333!8m2!3d33.271614!4d-111.8133 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Chandler+Municipal+Airport...
  - Tagbert 5y ago
    Yes, we live just a couple of miles from the airport in downtown Renton, WA (Seattle suburb). Small planes burning leaded fuel takeoff and land over the town and over Lake Washington. We are not in the flight path, but it’s very concerning for everyone who is and for all the fish in that lake.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    I’m somewhat surprised, based on state lead disclosure laws, that this too isn’t required to be disclosed to buyers of properties within proximity to airports that provide 100LL from their FBOs. It’s worse than lead paint (typically stable if not disturbed) in that it’s in the air and on the soil. You might expect the noise, but you’d have to be versed in general aviation to know you’re being exposed to lead from combustion pollution.
    - jliptzin 5y ago
      I had no idea leaded fuel was still used anywhere
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - dreamcompiler 5y ago
        It's limited to general aviation: Small piston-driven private airplanes. Lead is not used in jets.
        tialaramex 5y ago
        And importantly in this context: The magic word is "piston-driven". Lots of aircraft you see look to a lay person like they don't have a jet engine, because there are propellers just like on a piston-engined plane. But a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turboprop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turboprop is a very efficient jet engine that just happens to be driving a propeller and so they're running on JetA fuel which never had lead in it. (There are still lots of reasons not to exhaust that into the sky either, but at least it doesn't have lead in it)
- ryandrake 5y ago
  > I think a big factor here is the sentiment of people who live near small airports. (disclaimer: am a pilot, so biased) They don't really build small airports anymore, so the vast, vast majority of people who live near small airports chose to move there knowing in advance that the airport was there. Then they complain about the noise and pollution. There's a doctrine in Real Estate law called "Coming to the Nuisance" [1] which exists as a defense to these complaints. People who moved there knew what they were getting themselves into and assumed the risk of harm. I don't like that our airplanes spew lead into the environment, and am really really happy that an actual viable unleaded solution is finally on the horizon, but I also disagree with moving in next to an airport and then immediately complaining about it. 1: https://dictionary.thelaw.com/coming-to-the-nuisance/ https://dictionary.thelaw.com/coming-to-the-nuisance/
  - davidw 5y ago
    On the topic of small airports, you might find this an interesting oddity: https://www.google.com/maps/@44.0473359,-121.2771145,1144m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@44.0473359,-121.2771145,1144m/d... I know I did when I started looking around on Google Maps when we moved here. Hey, wait, is that...?!
    - btgeekboy 5y ago
      Airparks are a bit more common around the country than you’d think. Some are nicer than others. A pilot and homebuilder (of aircraft) myself, it’s basically my dream.
    - DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
      …how is that legal? I thought flight corridors had to be far away from residential areas. You can’t even legally fly a drone in most cities…
      - RNCTX 5y ago
        I'd say the vast majority of airparks used to be the town's municipal airport, and the town built a newer one and sold the old one. That's the case where I live around Dallas and we have a lot of them.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  How many people here do you think live near under the flight path of GA airports? How many people here do you think see the "LL" in 100LL and see an easy source of internet virtue points? Hatred for lead pollution in any capacity is just one of those community tropes here. The people who care are probably outnumbered 10:1 by people who just wanna be seen looking like they care. It's the same level of caring as a retweet or signing a change.org petition. Welcome to bike shedding 101. I don't expect this to be a popular comment.
  - loves_mangoes 5y ago
    You should honestly ask yourself why this is not a popular comment. If you start by assuming everyone else is arguing in bad faith ("people who just wanna be seen looking like they care"), then it's easy to dismiss any criticism, and it'll be hard for you to prove yourself wrong. If you never try to know when you're wrong, you could end up stuck with wrong beliefs for the rest of your life. I have no stake in your life, but I'd recommend against that.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      I know why it's a not a popular comment. Because everyone who cares enough to sling shit on the internet but not more than that is annoyed that I pointed out that that's where their line is drawn. The fact that people think every un-flattering observation about online discourse is assumed to be in bad faith says something. I'm not sure what but it's certainly un-flattering as well.
      - kelnos 5y ago
        Unflattering observations are fine, if they're based on solid evidence or at least some sort of logical process of determination. You do neither of those things and just throw around your personal opinion as gospel. It's unnecessary and doesn't add anything of value to the conversation.
- therein 5y ago
  > As well, every time I test the fuel on a Cessna it inevitably sprays everywhere so there’s that worry too. Yeah that bothers me as well. Especially since Tetraethyllead is in the perfect form to be absorbed through the skin. I started using nitrile gloves during that process but it still gets around with the wind at times. Would be a cool 3D printing project or even a better drain tube product design that springs flush with the plane so that it can't splurt out. Edit: After some searching came across this [0] -- will probably be buying that. [0] https://www.sportys.com/multisumptm-fuel-tester.html https://www.sportys.com/multisumptm-fuel-tester.html
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    I use the Gats jar, which has the additional advantage of having a chance to detect Jet-A contamination of your fuel.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
giantg2 5y ago
I'd image hackers are curious people, some of whom are interested in other tech like aviation, cars, etc.
- jpgvm 5y ago
  There does tend to be a strong overlap with tinkering with code to tinkering with physical things. Woodworking in particular seems very popular amongst my group of software inclined folk.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    Woodwork seems like pretty much the perfect retirement hobby too. Not too physical, time > skill > exertion, and enough depth in the topic to last a lifetime.
tw04 5y ago
Honestly: at least in my circle there is an oddly massive cross section of tech workers who have private pilot's licenses. In my relatively small circle (less than 200 people) of close friends/acquaintances, 25% of the tech workers have a private's pilot's license and 0 of the non-tech folks. Maybe it's truly just my circle but I always found it odd/amusing that such a high percentage had or were going for their pilot's license. Maybe the same personality trait that pushed them to tech pushes them to want to fly themselves. And/or it's just a matter of having more expendable money and free time than the average joe. Either way I think it's less HN and more the profession.
- DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
  I think it’s because we all played MS Flight Simulator as kids (Disclaimer: I don’t have a PFL, but my boss does… and his own Cessna)
  - ericbarrett 5y ago
    That was me. Played FS2, F/A-18 Hornet, Falcon 3.0, tons of others. Always wanted to fly. Finally grew up, made some money, and got a lesson. Turns out I'm terrified of small planes. Then I learned they're roughly as dangerous as motorcycles for a given distance traveled (about 10x the risk of an auto) and gave up the dream for good.
    - smackeyacky 5y ago
      Ha. I did exactly the same thing. Took a lesson, was terrified the entire time. I like flying in the bigger stuff but a cessna seems like somebody has thrown a volkswagen beetle into the air. Every time that thing dropped a metre due to turbulence i was glad i went to the toilet beforehand.
      - GekkePrutser 5y ago
        > Volkswagen Beetle Not a bad comparison actually. Between the airframe design era, air-cooling etc it's pretty apt. Fwiw I think the overlap is also because the tech thing. Flying airplanes is a pretty technical hobby so it makes sense it appeals to people like us tech workers
notatoad 5y ago
i'm hopeful that the interest here is indicative of a broader politically-relevant interest. personally, i have no great interest in general aviation and am not even a very good environmentalist, but i'm enthusiastic about the advancements here because it seems like the sort of easy wins we should be pushing for, where a lot of the hard work has already been done. i'm basically just here as a bandwagon fan so i can celebrate when "we" win this one. the same way i cheer when my local hockey team makes the playoffs. and i suspect that a lot of us are following this story for similar reasons.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  I visited GAMI’s Ada, OK facility in early 2014 and got a demo of their fuel that was already flying (in experimental category). A lot of the hard work was done almost a decade ago. It’s frustrating to me how slow the approval process has gone, but it’s got to be 10x as frustrating to GAMI.
bigbillheck 5y ago
> I'm curious to know if this is indicative of a broader (politically-relevant?) interest in getting lead out of GA, or just the sort of specialist topic that tends to interest HNers I have no interest in or connection to general aviation (beyond agreeing with Mojo Nixon on the topic of small private planes) but as a person who breathes air straight out of the atmosphere I have a strong interest in lead.

VLM 5y ago

The entire topic is a virtue signalers paradise. Insert unscientific outrage in the vending machine, get free karma. No need to know anything about the specific topic or the environment or chemistry or aviation or statistics to get that sweet karma.

base698 5y ago

If it hasn't been out five years you're a test pilot.

drzoltar 5y ago

I think a big factor here is the sentiment of people who live near small airports. The noise is already an issue. At least now there won’t be lead raining down on the neighborhood, so maybe less petitions to close the airport. As well, every time I test the fuel on a Cessna it inevitably sprays everywhere so there’s that worry too.

downrightmike 5y ago
If you look at Chandler Az's small airport, you'll see it is now in the middle of a dense sprawl of suburbs, who no doubt have no idea leaded fuel it burnt over their heads day and night. Minimum house price in the areas wasn't less that $500k last time I looked, and those were few. Intel is just to the west. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Chandler+Municipal+Airport/@33.2793057,-111.8499411,12.75z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x872baafcb69fb1b3:0x6347ef40ce6a7333!8m2!3d33.271614!4d-111.8133 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Chandler+Municipal+Airport...
- Tagbert 5y ago
  Yes, we live just a couple of miles from the airport in downtown Renton, WA (Seattle suburb). Small planes burning leaded fuel takeoff and land over the town and over Lake Washington. We are not in the flight path, but it’s very concerning for everyone who is and for all the fish in that lake.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  I’m somewhat surprised, based on state lead disclosure laws, that this too isn’t required to be disclosed to buyers of properties within proximity to airports that provide 100LL from their FBOs. It’s worse than lead paint (typically stable if not disturbed) in that it’s in the air and on the soil. You might expect the noise, but you’d have to be versed in general aviation to know you’re being exposed to lead from combustion pollution.
  - jliptzin 5y ago
    I had no idea leaded fuel was still used anywhere
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - dreamcompiler 5y ago
      It's limited to general aviation: Small piston-driven private airplanes. Lead is not used in jets.
      - tialaramex 5y ago
        And importantly in this context: The magic word is "piston-driven". Lots of aircraft you see look to a lay person like they don't have a jet engine, because there are propellers just like on a piston-engined plane. But a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turboprop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turboprop is a very efficient jet engine that just happens to be driving a propeller and so they're running on JetA fuel which never had lead in it. (There are still lots of reasons not to exhaust that into the sky either, but at least it doesn't have lead in it)
ryandrake 5y ago
> I think a big factor here is the sentiment of people who live near small airports. (disclaimer: am a pilot, so biased) They don't really build small airports anymore, so the vast, vast majority of people who live near small airports chose to move there knowing in advance that the airport was there. Then they complain about the noise and pollution. There's a doctrine in Real Estate law called "Coming to the Nuisance" [1] which exists as a defense to these complaints. People who moved there knew what they were getting themselves into and assumed the risk of harm. I don't like that our airplanes spew lead into the environment, and am really really happy that an actual viable unleaded solution is finally on the horizon, but I also disagree with moving in next to an airport and then immediately complaining about it. 1: https://dictionary.thelaw.com/coming-to-the-nuisance/ https://dictionary.thelaw.com/coming-to-the-nuisance/
- davidw 5y ago
  On the topic of small airports, you might find this an interesting oddity: https://www.google.com/maps/@44.0473359,-121.2771145,1144m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@44.0473359,-121.2771145,1144m/d... I know I did when I started looking around on Google Maps when we moved here. Hey, wait, is that...?!
  - btgeekboy 5y ago
    Airparks are a bit more common around the country than you’d think. Some are nicer than others. A pilot and homebuilder (of aircraft) myself, it’s basically my dream.
  - DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
    …how is that legal? I thought flight corridors had to be far away from residential areas. You can’t even legally fly a drone in most cities…
    - RNCTX 5y ago
      I'd say the vast majority of airparks used to be the town's municipal airport, and the town built a newer one and sold the old one. That's the case where I live around Dallas and we have a lot of them.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
How many people here do you think live near under the flight path of GA airports? How many people here do you think see the "LL" in 100LL and see an easy source of internet virtue points? Hatred for lead pollution in any capacity is just one of those community tropes here. The people who care are probably outnumbered 10:1 by people who just wanna be seen looking like they care. It's the same level of caring as a retweet or signing a change.org petition. Welcome to bike shedding 101. I don't expect this to be a popular comment.
- loves_mangoes 5y ago
  You should honestly ask yourself why this is not a popular comment. If you start by assuming everyone else is arguing in bad faith ("people who just wanna be seen looking like they care"), then it's easy to dismiss any criticism, and it'll be hard for you to prove yourself wrong. If you never try to know when you're wrong, you could end up stuck with wrong beliefs for the rest of your life. I have no stake in your life, but I'd recommend against that.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    I know why it's a not a popular comment. Because everyone who cares enough to sling shit on the internet but not more than that is annoyed that I pointed out that that's where their line is drawn. The fact that people think every un-flattering observation about online discourse is assumed to be in bad faith says something. I'm not sure what but it's certainly un-flattering as well.
    - kelnos 5y ago
      Unflattering observations are fine, if they're based on solid evidence or at least some sort of logical process of determination. You do neither of those things and just throw around your personal opinion as gospel. It's unnecessary and doesn't add anything of value to the conversation.
therein 5y ago
> As well, every time I test the fuel on a Cessna it inevitably sprays everywhere so there’s that worry too. Yeah that bothers me as well. Especially since Tetraethyllead is in the perfect form to be absorbed through the skin. I started using nitrile gloves during that process but it still gets around with the wind at times. Would be a cool 3D printing project or even a better drain tube product design that springs flush with the plane so that it can't splurt out. Edit: After some searching came across this [0] -- will probably be buying that. [0] https://www.sportys.com/multisumptm-fuel-tester.html https://www.sportys.com/multisumptm-fuel-tester.html
- sokoloff 5y ago
  I use the Gats jar, which has the additional advantage of having a chance to detect Jet-A contamination of your fuel.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

giantg2 5y ago

I'd image hackers are curious people, some of whom are interested in other tech like aviation, cars, etc.

jpgvm 5y ago
There does tend to be a strong overlap with tinkering with code to tinkering with physical things. Woodworking in particular seems very popular amongst my group of software inclined folk.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Woodwork seems like pretty much the perfect retirement hobby too. Not too physical, time > skill > exertion, and enough depth in the topic to last a lifetime.

tw04 5y ago

Honestly: at least in my circle there is an oddly massive cross section of tech workers who have private pilot's licenses. In my relatively small circle (less than 200 people) of close friends/acquaintances, 25% of the tech workers have a private's pilot's license and 0 of the non-tech folks. Maybe it's truly just my circle but I always found it odd/amusing that such a high percentage had or were going for their pilot's license. Maybe the same personality trait that pushed them to tech pushes them to want to fly themselves. And/or it's just a matter of having more expendable money and free time than the average joe. Either way I think it's less HN and more the profession.

DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
I think it’s because we all played MS Flight Simulator as kids (Disclaimer: I don’t have a PFL, but my boss does… and his own Cessna)
- ericbarrett 5y ago
  That was me. Played FS2, F/A-18 Hornet, Falcon 3.0, tons of others. Always wanted to fly. Finally grew up, made some money, and got a lesson. Turns out I'm terrified of small planes. Then I learned they're roughly as dangerous as motorcycles for a given distance traveled (about 10x the risk of an auto) and gave up the dream for good.
  - smackeyacky 5y ago
    Ha. I did exactly the same thing. Took a lesson, was terrified the entire time. I like flying in the bigger stuff but a cessna seems like somebody has thrown a volkswagen beetle into the air. Every time that thing dropped a metre due to turbulence i was glad i went to the toilet beforehand.
    - GekkePrutser 5y ago
      > Volkswagen Beetle Not a bad comparison actually. Between the airframe design era, air-cooling etc it's pretty apt. Fwiw I think the overlap is also because the tech thing. Flying airplanes is a pretty technical hobby so it makes sense it appeals to people like us tech workers

notatoad 5y ago

i'm hopeful that the interest here is indicative of a broader politically-relevant interest. personally, i have no great interest in general aviation and am not even a very good environmentalist, but i'm enthusiastic about the advancements here because it seems like the sort of easy wins we should be pushing for, where a lot of the hard work has already been done. i'm basically just here as a bandwagon fan so i can celebrate when "we" win this one. the same way i cheer when my local hockey team makes the playoffs. and i suspect that a lot of us are following this story for similar reasons.

sokoloff 5y ago
I visited GAMI’s Ada, OK facility in early 2014 and got a demo of their fuel that was already flying (in experimental category). A lot of the hard work was done almost a decade ago. It’s frustrating to me how slow the approval process has gone, but it’s got to be 10x as frustrating to GAMI.

bigbillheck 5y ago

> I'm curious to know if this is indicative of a broader (politically-relevant?) interest in getting lead out of GA, or just the sort of specialist topic that tends to interest HNers I have no interest in or connection to general aviation (beyond agreeing with Mojo Nixon on the topic of small private planes) but as a person who breathes air straight out of the atmosphere I have a strong interest in lead.