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Launched under a sub-brand ? Check. Tron-car / iMobile / eMachine styling ? Check. Dumping ground for UI/UX experiments ? Check. ... God forbid they woul

by rsync 5y ago

Launched under a sub-brand ? Check. Tron-car / iMobile / eMachine styling ? Check. Dumping ground for UI/UX experiments ? Check. ... God forbid they would just give us an electric Camry. Or a forerunner. Or a Tacoma. Do they not understand ? We don't want your "electric car" - we want your car, electric.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
I thought the whole value proposition of a 4Runner/Tacoma is the drive train has so many years and miles of being proven to be bulletproof that buyers know exactly what they are getting. An ICE car that will last a few hundred thousands miles with just maintenance. And they are so simple they are easy to work on and customize. An electric version would not have any of that.
- neogodless 5y ago
  And you've just answered why Toyota has been so hesitant to move the conversion from ICE to electric motor forward. It's a key market advantage they are about to lose.
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    You think owners of EV cars don't care about reliability? They are even in a worse spot, needing to pay $1000 for a door handle failure because they can only get all their service from the dealer. A rock solid EV that doesn't need a lot of repairs, and when it does, is simple/cheap to repair would be a huge win for EV buyers.
    - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
      > They are even in a worse spot, needing to pay $1000 for a door handle failure because they can only get all their service from the dealer Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't an EV thing, it's a Tesla thing.
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        Are there any major non Tesla EVs in the US? I am not into cars, but I can only assume the Lead/Volt/whatever else out there is bad quality or has some other drawback that causes them to basically be non existent on the roads.
        adventured 5y ago
        > Are there any major non Tesla EVs in the US? A few. Chevrolet will sell ~30,000 EV units this year in the US. And this is getting some attention: https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/bolt-euv https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/bolt-euv Chevy needs to get that price down to $25k-$26k (their Trax ICE vehicle that the Bolt EUV looks like is $21k base). The Ford Mustang EV will sell 20k units this year, or just over that. The Volkswagen ID.4 will sell maybe 13k-14k units this year. Nissan Leaf 10k units; Audi EVs 8k-9k units; Hyundai EVs 8k-9k units; Porsche Taycan 8k-9k units (the Taycan is now outselling the 911 in the US market).
        mikestew 5y ago
        If you're not into cars, I doubt you'd recognize a Chevy Bolt if it came up and tapped you on the hind end. Hell, I'm not only "into" cars, I bought one of the first Nissan Leafs, so I know my electric cars. And I have to take a second look to make sure it's a Bolt and not a Chevy Spark. Even the new Leafs aren't the odd-looking, bug-eyed beasts they used to be, and look almost normal these days. So unless you've actually been looking, it's likely the body styles just haven't stood out enough for you to notice.
        lotsofpulp 5y ago
        Assuming the car says "Leaf" or "Volt" on the back, I would have noticed. And I have seen a few of them, just far, far fewer than Teslas. The drastic difference in how often I see those makes me think there is something wrong with the value proposition though to make them so uncompetitive with Teslas.
        Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
        https://electrek.co/2021/02/16/tesla-owns-electric-car-market-us/ https://electrek.co/2021/02/16/tesla-owns-electric-car-marke... About 79% of EVs in the US are Tesla. They exist, but Tesla certainly absolutely dominates the market. The major drawback to other brands has many facets: - Reputation for low range. The first Nissan Leaf made in 2011 had an EPA range of only 73 miles. In 2016, they started giving a bigger battery, but it still only had a paltry 107 mile range. It wasn't until 2019 that they started offering a battery with a 226 mile range, but by then, the reputation as a short-range EV was essentially set in stone. - Slow charging speed. Teslas can charge at up to a whopping 250 kW, which can grant 75 miles of range in only 5 minutes. Meanwhile, the Leaf only supported up to 50 kW until 2019, and even now only does 100 kW. - Lack of charging infrastructure. This is related to the previous note. If you go to a site like PlugShare.com, you can see TONS of chargers in any metro area, but the problem is, the extreme majority of them are J-1772 plugs that charge at <10 kW. At that speed, it takes an hour to get just 30 miles of range. All that is compounded by the fact that car dealerships are often disincentivized to sell EVs. Dealerships make a significant portion of their money in the repair and maintenance bays. Since EVs require far less maintenance, and so far are proving far more reliable, dealerships don't want to sell them.
    - neogodless 5y ago
      You read something into my comment that I simply didn't say. What I did say: > It's a key market advantage they are about to lose. Toyota has a key market advantage among ICE power trains. They do not have a key market advantage with electric power trains. (Though they should, given their decades of Prius production.)
      - rsj_hn 5y ago
        Their market advantage is in manufacturing. They make quality products. Honda makes better, more reliable engines. But Toyota is great at manufacturing.
- pedrocr 5y ago
  An electric drivetrain should have more of all of that. The motors can last much longer and the only part that degrades is the battery that's on a steeply descending cost curve. Toyota could make an EV truck that lasts forever mechanically with a battery that's easy to replace with new technology at a third of the price years down the line. Toyota's value proposition of longevity could easily be reinforced in an EV world and they've squandered the brand head start from the Prius too.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    Yes, I am waiting for a Toyota EV simply because I trust Toyota’s quality, and I want something with CarPlay without that giant screen Teslas have. I just would not expect them to waste the 4Runner/Tacoma branding on an experimental product due to the ICE 4Runner/Tacoma’s spectacular reputation as one of the most reliable cars available.
warning26 5y ago
In their defense, most EV versions of gasoline cars haven't sold particularly well (remember the Honda Fit EV, anyone?) The EVs that ended up selling well ultimately were Tesla vehicles, which were closer to this thing than an electric Camry.
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  Yup. This idea that companies like Toyota are intentionally not selling products that consumers want but other products that consumers don't want is very common and very wrong. It just means that not everyone has the same taste, and some peoples' tastes are in a minority, even if they don't know it.
  - rsync 5y ago
    "This idea that companies like Toyota are intentionally not selling products that consumers want ..." This is, in fact, the case. If Audi launches electric A4/A6/A8 tomorrow, that will be (roughly) 100% of their sales and they know it. But they have billions sunk into ... (see my comment downthread about manufacturing and tooling). So consumers need to wait for their lifetime ROI to satisfy the incumbent manufacturers such that they are willing to jettison those investments and electrify their actual lineup. The worst offender, by far, is Volvo whose marketing pedigree, target audience and models produces are a perfect match for 21st century electric car buyers ... and yet we're two full model cycles past the Tesla Model S and I still can't get an electric V90 wagon ...
- zardo 5y ago
  That's largely because you do actually need a new platform for your EV. The component packaging needs are significantly different, so EVs stuffed into conventional platforms need to make a lot of compromises. But that's all under the skin. The styling and interiors can look as mundane or wild as the maker chooses.
- rodgerd 5y ago
  > most EV versions of gasoline cars haven't sold particularly well Perhaps. But the Leaf alone is a significant counterpoint to that. Contrast with the abject market failure of the electric-from-the-ground-up i3.
MrBuddyCasino 5y ago
I'm really looking forward to the insider stories coming out in 30 years, where they explain why every major legacy car manufacturer releases electric cars in a way that makes them undesirable. EDIT It just occurred to me that this has already happened once: comparing the cars of the 50s/60s to the 80s, it is clear that there is a lot more going on than one would think. Is it inflation? Regulation? Corporate politics? Zeitgeist?
- rsync 5y ago
  "I'm really looking forward to the insider stories coming out in 30 years, where they explain why every major legacy car manufacturer releases electric cars in a way that makes them undesirable." We already know the answer - they have billions invested in supply chains, manufacturing and tooling that are all sunk costs with diminishing ROI if they actually make their cars electric. We are witnessing a (frustrating) balancing act wherein the incumbent manufacturers attempt to squeeze as much return as possible from these old-line investments while simultaneously attempting to remain relevant and hedge their future bets.
  - MrBuddyCasino 5y ago
    I too believe its political. They release these shitty tech demos to gain experience and ensure that they can actually switch to EV once they really have to, but they'd really rather not sell too many of them right now. But thats just a theory, and there are other plausible ones.
  - mxschumacher 5y ago
    Their suppliers are changing, too and have been for years. Supply chain skills such as selecting partners, handling logistics and optimizing trade finance aren't becoming irrelevant because of a switch to EVs.
neogodless 5y ago
What is the sub-brand it is launching under? This article just says "Toyota," which is not a sub-brand. (But I agree with the rest - it's hideous, poorly named, thoroughly uninspiring, and overdue.)
- notJim 5y ago
  And if the price is reasonable, and they can actually deliver them, it will sell like crazy. Most people are looking to get around, not be inspired.
  - neogodless 5y ago
    Well, perhaps "uninspiring" isn't the word I should've chosen. The Pontiac Aztek and Toyota C-HR are hideous and polarizing. The only people that want them want to demonstrate that they don't care what their car looks like. That takes more commitment than taking on a bland, uninspiring vehicle like a Camry. In my opinion, the bZ4X is also kind of "alternate powertrain" hideous. In a way, that worked for the Prius. You could clearly tell that the driver was an eco-warrior driving something "different." I think Toyota might actually be trying to hint at Lexus with this styling, which has a similar edginess to it.
- subsubsubsub 5y ago
  > “bZ” stands for “beyond zero,” which is Toyota’s latest electrification strategy and a sort of sub-brand for its upcoming electric vehicles, starting with the bZ4X
  - neogodless 5y ago
    Unless things change before the launch date, the brand is Toyota, and "bZ" is simply a naming convention for the model. The BMW 3-series is a model, not a sub-brand, even if variations all get a "3xx" name.
antisthenes 5y ago
Don't really get your gripes. > Launched under a sub-brand ? Check. It's still a Toyota. What sub-brand are you referring to? > Tron-car / iMobile / eMachine styling ? Check. No more or less than every single crossover wanna-be SUV for the last 15 years. Cars have pretty much visually converged to looking the same, due to aerodynamic requirements. > Dumping ground for UI/UX experiments ? Check. The wing-shaped steering wheel is optional. What else is being dumped here as an experiment? > We don't want your "electric car" - we want your car, electric. If you have a driving pattern with short trips, you can already drive any single Toyota PHEV as an electric car. Also, pure EV Camries and RAV4s are sure to follow this in the next couple of years.
- trixie_ 5y ago
  Take the BMW i3 for example. Compared to any other BMW it is a monstrosity. Seriously were employees put on the i3 project as a punishment?
illwrks 5y ago
Styling-wise, I think it's a derivative of the Lexus NX and UX. The wheel arches, panels, mirrors, lights etc all look very familiar just a little bit more angular I guess. The interior cabin looks very wide (based on the centre console) so perhaps more in line with the RX in terms of size. NX Exterior: https://inchcapecdn.azureedge.net/cdn-images/stock/f/fn19yuj-1.jpg https://inchcapecdn.azureedge.net/cdn-images/stock/f/fn19yuj... UX Exterior rear: https://cdn.carbuzz.com/gallery-images/840x560/498000/900/498964.jpg https://cdn.carbuzz.com/gallery-images/840x560/498000/900/49... RX Interior: https://www.carscoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2021-Lexus-RX-Black-Line-3.jpg https://www.carscoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2021-Le...
intrepidhero 5y ago
I dunno. It looks like an electric Rav4 to me. With a 300 mile range, I predict that if they price it right they'll sell as many as they can make.
- blacksmith_tb 5y ago
  Likely. I have (and like) a Prius Prime PHEV, hoping to drive it for years, but I would hope my next vehicle is fully EV, and I'd rather not have to get an SUV to do that. It'd be nice if Toyota could also bring a sedan or even compact EV to market.
rodgerd 5y ago
> We don't want your "electric car" - we want your car, electric. Prius begat hybrid Corolla. This is all very much how Toyota rolls these things out.

by rsync 5y ago

lotsofpulp 5y ago

I thought the whole value proposition of a 4Runner/Tacoma is the drive train has so many years and miles of being proven to be bulletproof that buyers know exactly what they are getting. An ICE car that will last a few hundred thousands miles with just maintenance. And they are so simple they are easy to work on and customize. An electric version would not have any of that.

neogodless 5y ago
And you've just answered why Toyota has been so hesitant to move the conversion from ICE to electric motor forward. It's a key market advantage they are about to lose.
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  You think owners of EV cars don't care about reliability? They are even in a worse spot, needing to pay $1000 for a door handle failure because they can only get all their service from the dealer. A rock solid EV that doesn't need a lot of repairs, and when it does, is simple/cheap to repair would be a huge win for EV buyers.
  - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
    > They are even in a worse spot, needing to pay $1000 for a door handle failure because they can only get all their service from the dealer Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't an EV thing, it's a Tesla thing.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      Are there any major non Tesla EVs in the US? I am not into cars, but I can only assume the Lead/Volt/whatever else out there is bad quality or has some other drawback that causes them to basically be non existent on the roads.
      - adventured 5y ago
        > Are there any major non Tesla EVs in the US? A few. Chevrolet will sell ~30,000 EV units this year in the US. And this is getting some attention: https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/bolt-euv https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/bolt-euv Chevy needs to get that price down to $25k-$26k (their Trax ICE vehicle that the Bolt EUV looks like is $21k base). The Ford Mustang EV will sell 20k units this year, or just over that. The Volkswagen ID.4 will sell maybe 13k-14k units this year. Nissan Leaf 10k units; Audi EVs 8k-9k units; Hyundai EVs 8k-9k units; Porsche Taycan 8k-9k units (the Taycan is now outselling the 911 in the US market).
      - mikestew 5y ago
        If you're not into cars, I doubt you'd recognize a Chevy Bolt if it came up and tapped you on the hind end. Hell, I'm not only "into" cars, I bought one of the first Nissan Leafs, so I know my electric cars. And I have to take a second look to make sure it's a Bolt and not a Chevy Spark. Even the new Leafs aren't the odd-looking, bug-eyed beasts they used to be, and look almost normal these days. So unless you've actually been looking, it's likely the body styles just haven't stood out enough for you to notice.
        lotsofpulp 5y ago
        Assuming the car says "Leaf" or "Volt" on the back, I would have noticed. And I have seen a few of them, just far, far fewer than Teslas. The drastic difference in how often I see those makes me think there is something wrong with the value proposition though to make them so uncompetitive with Teslas.
      - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
        https://electrek.co/2021/02/16/tesla-owns-electric-car-market-us/ https://electrek.co/2021/02/16/tesla-owns-electric-car-marke... About 79% of EVs in the US are Tesla. They exist, but Tesla certainly absolutely dominates the market. The major drawback to other brands has many facets: - Reputation for low range. The first Nissan Leaf made in 2011 had an EPA range of only 73 miles. In 2016, they started giving a bigger battery, but it still only had a paltry 107 mile range. It wasn't until 2019 that they started offering a battery with a 226 mile range, but by then, the reputation as a short-range EV was essentially set in stone. - Slow charging speed. Teslas can charge at up to a whopping 250 kW, which can grant 75 miles of range in only 5 minutes. Meanwhile, the Leaf only supported up to 50 kW until 2019, and even now only does 100 kW. - Lack of charging infrastructure. This is related to the previous note. If you go to a site like PlugShare.com, you can see TONS of chargers in any metro area, but the problem is, the extreme majority of them are J-1772 plugs that charge at <10 kW. At that speed, it takes an hour to get just 30 miles of range. All that is compounded by the fact that car dealerships are often disincentivized to sell EVs. Dealerships make a significant portion of their money in the repair and maintenance bays. Since EVs require far less maintenance, and so far are proving far more reliable, dealerships don't want to sell them.
  - neogodless 5y ago
    You read something into my comment that I simply didn't say. What I did say: > It's a key market advantage they are about to lose. Toyota has a key market advantage among ICE power trains. They do not have a key market advantage with electric power trains. (Though they should, given their decades of Prius production.)
    - rsj_hn 5y ago
      Their market advantage is in manufacturing. They make quality products. Honda makes better, more reliable engines. But Toyota is great at manufacturing.
pedrocr 5y ago
An electric drivetrain should have more of all of that. The motors can last much longer and the only part that degrades is the battery that's on a steeply descending cost curve. Toyota could make an EV truck that lasts forever mechanically with a battery that's easy to replace with new technology at a third of the price years down the line. Toyota's value proposition of longevity could easily be reinforced in an EV world and they've squandered the brand head start from the Prius too.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  Yes, I am waiting for a Toyota EV simply because I trust Toyota’s quality, and I want something with CarPlay without that giant screen Teslas have. I just would not expect them to waste the 4Runner/Tacoma branding on an experimental product due to the ICE 4Runner/Tacoma’s spectacular reputation as one of the most reliable cars available.

warning26 5y ago

In their defense, most EV versions of gasoline cars haven't sold particularly well (remember the Honda Fit EV, anyone?) The EVs that ended up selling well ultimately were Tesla vehicles, which were closer to this thing than an electric Camry.

rsj_hn 5y ago
Yup. This idea that companies like Toyota are intentionally not selling products that consumers want but other products that consumers don't want is very common and very wrong. It just means that not everyone has the same taste, and some peoples' tastes are in a minority, even if they don't know it.
- rsync 5y ago
  "This idea that companies like Toyota are intentionally not selling products that consumers want ..." This is, in fact, the case. If Audi launches electric A4/A6/A8 tomorrow, that will be (roughly) 100% of their sales and they know it. But they have billions sunk into ... (see my comment downthread about manufacturing and tooling). So consumers need to wait for their lifetime ROI to satisfy the incumbent manufacturers such that they are willing to jettison those investments and electrify their actual lineup. The worst offender, by far, is Volvo whose marketing pedigree, target audience and models produces are a perfect match for 21st century electric car buyers ... and yet we're two full model cycles past the Tesla Model S and I still can't get an electric V90 wagon ...
zardo 5y ago
That's largely because you do actually need a new platform for your EV. The component packaging needs are significantly different, so EVs stuffed into conventional platforms need to make a lot of compromises. But that's all under the skin. The styling and interiors can look as mundane or wild as the maker chooses.
rodgerd 5y ago
> most EV versions of gasoline cars haven't sold particularly well Perhaps. But the Leaf alone is a significant counterpoint to that. Contrast with the abject market failure of the electric-from-the-ground-up i3.

MrBuddyCasino 5y ago

I'm really looking forward to the insider stories coming out in 30 years, where they explain why every major legacy car manufacturer releases electric cars in a way that makes them undesirable. EDIT It just occurred to me that this has already happened once: comparing the cars of the 50s/60s to the 80s, it is clear that there is a lot more going on than one would think. Is it inflation? Regulation? Corporate politics? Zeitgeist?

rsync 5y ago
"I'm really looking forward to the insider stories coming out in 30 years, where they explain why every major legacy car manufacturer releases electric cars in a way that makes them undesirable." We already know the answer - they have billions invested in supply chains, manufacturing and tooling that are all sunk costs with diminishing ROI if they actually make their cars electric. We are witnessing a (frustrating) balancing act wherein the incumbent manufacturers attempt to squeeze as much return as possible from these old-line investments while simultaneously attempting to remain relevant and hedge their future bets.
- MrBuddyCasino 5y ago
  I too believe its political. They release these shitty tech demos to gain experience and ensure that they can actually switch to EV once they really have to, but they'd really rather not sell too many of them right now. But thats just a theory, and there are other plausible ones.
- mxschumacher 5y ago
  Their suppliers are changing, too and have been for years. Supply chain skills such as selecting partners, handling logistics and optimizing trade finance aren't becoming irrelevant because of a switch to EVs.

neogodless 5y ago

What is the sub-brand it is launching under? This article just says "Toyota," which is not a sub-brand. (But I agree with the rest - it's hideous, poorly named, thoroughly uninspiring, and overdue.)

notJim 5y ago
And if the price is reasonable, and they can actually deliver them, it will sell like crazy. Most people are looking to get around, not be inspired.
- neogodless 5y ago
  Well, perhaps "uninspiring" isn't the word I should've chosen. The Pontiac Aztek and Toyota C-HR are hideous and polarizing. The only people that want them want to demonstrate that they don't care what their car looks like. That takes more commitment than taking on a bland, uninspiring vehicle like a Camry. In my opinion, the bZ4X is also kind of "alternate powertrain" hideous. In a way, that worked for the Prius. You could clearly tell that the driver was an eco-warrior driving something "different." I think Toyota might actually be trying to hint at Lexus with this styling, which has a similar edginess to it.
subsubsubsub 5y ago
> “bZ” stands for “beyond zero,” which is Toyota’s latest electrification strategy and a sort of sub-brand for its upcoming electric vehicles, starting with the bZ4X
- neogodless 5y ago
  Unless things change before the launch date, the brand is Toyota, and "bZ" is simply a naming convention for the model. The BMW 3-series is a model, not a sub-brand, even if variations all get a "3xx" name.

antisthenes 5y ago

Don't really get your gripes. > Launched under a sub-brand ? Check. It's still a Toyota. What sub-brand are you referring to? > Tron-car / iMobile / eMachine styling ? Check. No more or less than every single crossover wanna-be SUV for the last 15 years. Cars have pretty much visually converged to looking the same, due to aerodynamic requirements. > Dumping ground for UI/UX experiments ? Check. The wing-shaped steering wheel is optional. What else is being dumped here as an experiment? > We don't want your "electric car" - we want your car, electric. If you have a driving pattern with short trips, you can already drive any single Toyota PHEV as an electric car. Also, pure EV Camries and RAV4s are sure to follow this in the next couple of years.

trixie_ 5y ago
Take the BMW i3 for example. Compared to any other BMW it is a monstrosity. Seriously were employees put on the i3 project as a punishment?

illwrks 5y ago

Styling-wise, I think it's a derivative of the Lexus NX and UX. The wheel arches, panels, mirrors, lights etc all look very familiar just a little bit more angular I guess. The interior cabin looks very wide (based on the centre console) so perhaps more in line with the RX in terms of size. NX Exterior: https://inchcapecdn.azureedge.net/cdn-images/stock/f/fn19yuj-1.jpg https://inchcapecdn.azureedge.net/cdn-images/stock/f/fn19yuj... UX Exterior rear: https://cdn.carbuzz.com/gallery-images/840x560/498000/900/498964.jpg https://cdn.carbuzz.com/gallery-images/840x560/498000/900/49... RX Interior: https://www.carscoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2021-Lexus-RX-Black-Line-3.jpg https://www.carscoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2021-Le...

intrepidhero 5y ago

I dunno. It looks like an electric Rav4 to me. With a 300 mile range, I predict that if they price it right they'll sell as many as they can make.

blacksmith_tb 5y ago
Likely. I have (and like) a Prius Prime PHEV, hoping to drive it for years, but I would hope my next vehicle is fully EV, and I'd rather not have to get an SUV to do that. It'd be nice if Toyota could also bring a sedan or even compact EV to market.

rodgerd 5y ago

> We don't want your "electric car" - we want your car, electric. Prius begat hybrid Corolla. This is all very much how Toyota rolls these things out.