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Apple Again Cites Inaccurate Evidence in Samsung Patent Case

23 points by palebluedot 15y ago

martythemaniak 15y ago
That's just pathetic.
acangiano 15y ago
I sincerely hope courts take this travesty seriously. Intentionally submitting doctored and misleading evidence should be ground for immediate dismissal of the case.
- siglesias 15y ago
  They're just trying to show the design similarities. Aspect ratio was not altered.
  - sjs 15y ago
    If the designs are so similar - and I am one of the few who really thinks they are - then Apple would have no need to scale the Samsung device in order to highlight the similarities. There's no excusing this. Once was terrible, twice is just incomprehensible. Incredibly unprofessional no matter how this came to be.
    - siglesias 15y ago
      The filing has lots of pictures and information, among them the dimensions of the different devices. There needs to be a graphic that illustrates that the proportions and relative button placement is copied; this is that graphic.
      - joe_the_user 15y ago
        I believe even a commercial advertisement making this kind of comparison is required to have a disclaimer immediately above or below it describing any changes made to an image. I would imagine a legal document would have more stringent requirements. You remember "not actual size", right?
  - palebluedot 15y ago
    No, it appears as if it was just altered in the ways that would help their case, in this instance. With the tablet filing, the aspect ratio appears to be altered - and perhaps not coincidentally, altering the aspect ratio in that filing was more beneficial. The end result appears to be, in both the tablet and phone filings, that the alleged image manipulation produced something that appeared more similar to Apple's products. That the image manipulation is different (aspect ratio adjustment, vs resizing) seems to be more damning than if the same adjustment was made across the board (i.e. it looks less likely to be accidental).
podperson 15y ago
I'd love to see the image in context. How is Apple using the image? If this is so egregious, then show it all. If Apple's point is "Samsung copies our design slavishly" and the defense is "wait, ours may look identical, but it's 6% larger", then good luck with that. All I see so far is Samsung building devices that are identical to Apple modulo the screens they're able to source. This may be exactly Apple's point.
- recoiledsnake 15y ago
  First, they're messing up the aspect ratio of the devices with the manipulation. Second, there is no real need to do this, if the sizes are just 6% different, why change the image at all?. Third, this is showing up to be a pattern, thus not just 'sloppy lawyering' like Gruber would want us to believe. >All I see so far is Samsung building devices that are identical to Apple modulo the screens they're able to source. This may be exactly Apple's point. And there is no better way to project that point except by making the screens look exactly the same size without a note saying 'scaled size to show similarities'? All this in a court filing. Lets be honest here, if this was MS in place of Apple, everyone would be screaming bloody murder.
  - tzs 15y ago
    > First, they're messing up the aspect ratio of the devices with the manipulation From the article: "The aspect ratio has not been measurably altered". > And there is no better way to project that point except by making the screens look exactly the same size without a note saying 'scaled size to show similarities'? Apple noted in the text of the filing that the sizes are actually different.
    - recoiledsnake 15y ago
      The OP was referring to Samsung devices in general and can apply to the earlier tampering as well, the Galaxy tab did get its aspect ratio changed from 16:9 to a 4:3.
  - siglesias 15y ago
rmc 15y ago
Summary: Some of the side-by-side images of Apple iPhone & Samsung Galaxy S show the phones apparing visually similar, but the Samsung image has been scaled down 6%. It's the newspaper that claims that the evidence in inaccurate. What would be very interesting is if the court involved also found it inaccurate, but I can't find any decision one way or the other on this...
- cooldeal 15y ago
  >Summary: Some of the side-by-side images of Apple iPhone & Samsung Galaxy S show the phones apparing visually similar, but the Samsung image has been scaled down 6%. Would you say the same thing if it was Samsung's court filing and Samsung made the iPhone 6% wider make them look dissimilar? >It's the newspaper that claims that the evidence in inaccurate. They're using the dictionary meaning of inaccurate. And it is plainly visible to the eye that the images were doctored, unless you don't want to see it, no real need to wait for a court to decide it for you.
  - rmc 15y ago
    The opinion of the court is very newsworthy, especially if the punish Apple.
- cooldeal 15y ago
  >Krul said that litigating parties are required by Dutch law to provide "complete and truthful" evidence to the judge. Apple: But ours was just 6% away from the complete truth! What are the chances of that flying with the judge?
- joe_the_user 15y ago
  > It's the newspaper that claims that the evidence in inaccurate. Article: "During the court hearing last week, Samsung's lawyer, Bas Berghuis of Simmons and Simmons, claimed that Apple has been "manipulating visual evidence, making Samsung's devices appear more similar to Apple's."" Both Samsung and newspaper are claiming the evidence is inaccurate. The newspaper is the one which highlighted a particular illustration which, uh, does indeed seem inaccurate. The court has indeed not yet made any decision on this.
gwalker 15y ago
Interesting point from the article: A legal expert on intellectual property cases, who declined to be named, asserted that when pictures are filed both in the complaint and in separate productions, those in the complaint would be considered more important. **Visual evidence presented there typically indicates that the plaintiff wants to emphasize its significance, he said.** Presumably Apple are pretty experienced in the intricacies of patent law so I don't think you can blame the intern who can't use Photoshop...
joebadmo 15y ago
If the charge is that Samsung hardware is so close to Apple's that it would fool a normal reasonable person, isn't doctoring images sort of a tacit admission that it's not? I mean, if you really believed it to be true, why would you bother altering the images? I'm kind of confused about why this affects the patent lawsuit, though. I understand the German trademark dispute, but is the visual look of the iPhone included in the patent?
ajross 15y ago
Apple has to get this under control. They're burning good will like crazy here. Tech devices have been cloned since the dawn of the industry. They're not meaningfully going to stop this, and this kind of game just makes them look petty and insecure.
pedalpete 15y ago
When your phone is a plain black square with rounded corners, don't they all look the same? http://mobile.engadget.com/2008/11/04/htcs-touch-hd-gets-overseas-hands-on-treatment/ http://mobile.engadget.com/2008/11/04/htcs-touch-hd-gets-ove... http://www.theandroider.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/abfd4_17064_motimage_touchzine_hd_face-578x1024.jpg http://www.theandroider.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/ca... Are we really expecting the courts to compare aspect ratios, and corner radii to decide that one is to similar to another? Where will we draw the line? Sorry, Apple, 4" screen with 11mm thickness was already done by htc, your phone is only 2mm thinner, that's too close to the other devices.

23 points by palebluedot 15y ago

That's just pathetic.

I sincerely hope courts take this travesty seriously. Intentionally submitting doctored and misleading evidence should be ground for immediate dismissal of the case.

siglesias 15y ago
They're just trying to show the design similarities. Aspect ratio was not altered.
- sjs 15y ago
  If the designs are so similar - and I am one of the few who really thinks they are - then Apple would have no need to scale the Samsung device in order to highlight the similarities. There's no excusing this. Once was terrible, twice is just incomprehensible. Incredibly unprofessional no matter how this came to be.
  - siglesias 15y ago
    The filing has lots of pictures and information, among them the dimensions of the different devices. There needs to be a graphic that illustrates that the proportions and relative button placement is copied; this is that graphic.
    - joe_the_user 15y ago
      I believe even a commercial advertisement making this kind of comparison is required to have a disclaimer immediately above or below it describing any changes made to an image. I would imagine a legal document would have more stringent requirements. You remember "not actual size", right?
- palebluedot 15y ago
  No, it appears as if it was just altered in the ways that would help their case, in this instance. With the tablet filing, the aspect ratio appears to be altered - and perhaps not coincidentally, altering the aspect ratio in that filing was more beneficial. The end result appears to be, in both the tablet and phone filings, that the alleged image manipulation produced something that appeared more similar to Apple's products. That the image manipulation is different (aspect ratio adjustment, vs resizing) seems to be more damning than if the same adjustment was made across the board (i.e. it looks less likely to be accidental).

podperson 15y ago

I'd love to see the image in context. How is Apple using the image? If this is so egregious, then show it all. If Apple's point is "Samsung copies our design slavishly" and the defense is "wait, ours may look identical, but it's 6% larger", then good luck with that. All I see so far is Samsung building devices that are identical to Apple modulo the screens they're able to source. This may be exactly Apple's point.

recoiledsnake 15y ago
First, they're messing up the aspect ratio of the devices with the manipulation. Second, there is no real need to do this, if the sizes are just 6% different, why change the image at all?. Third, this is showing up to be a pattern, thus not just 'sloppy lawyering' like Gruber would want us to believe. >All I see so far is Samsung building devices that are identical to Apple modulo the screens they're able to source. This may be exactly Apple's point. And there is no better way to project that point except by making the screens look exactly the same size without a note saying 'scaled size to show similarities'? All this in a court filing. Lets be honest here, if this was MS in place of Apple, everyone would be screaming bloody murder.
- tzs 15y ago
  > First, they're messing up the aspect ratio of the devices with the manipulation From the article: "The aspect ratio has not been measurably altered". > And there is no better way to project that point except by making the screens look exactly the same size without a note saying 'scaled size to show similarities'? Apple noted in the text of the filing that the sizes are actually different.
  - recoiledsnake 15y ago
    The OP was referring to Samsung devices in general and can apply to the earlier tampering as well, the Galaxy tab did get its aspect ratio changed from 16:9 to a 4:3.
- siglesias 15y ago

rmc 15y ago

Summary: Some of the side-by-side images of Apple iPhone & Samsung Galaxy S show the phones apparing visually similar, but the Samsung image has been scaled down 6%. It's the newspaper that claims that the evidence in inaccurate. What would be very interesting is if the court involved also found it inaccurate, but I can't find any decision one way or the other on this...

cooldeal 15y ago
>Summary: Some of the side-by-side images of Apple iPhone & Samsung Galaxy S show the phones apparing visually similar, but the Samsung image has been scaled down 6%. Would you say the same thing if it was Samsung's court filing and Samsung made the iPhone 6% wider make them look dissimilar? >It's the newspaper that claims that the evidence in inaccurate. They're using the dictionary meaning of inaccurate. And it is plainly visible to the eye that the images were doctored, unless you don't want to see it, no real need to wait for a court to decide it for you.
- rmc 15y ago
  The opinion of the court is very newsworthy, especially if the punish Apple.
cooldeal 15y ago
>Krul said that litigating parties are required by Dutch law to provide "complete and truthful" evidence to the judge. Apple: But ours was just 6% away from the complete truth! What are the chances of that flying with the judge?
joe_the_user 15y ago
> It's the newspaper that claims that the evidence in inaccurate. Article: "During the court hearing last week, Samsung's lawyer, Bas Berghuis of Simmons and Simmons, claimed that Apple has been "manipulating visual evidence, making Samsung's devices appear more similar to Apple's."" Both Samsung and newspaper are claiming the evidence is inaccurate. The newspaper is the one which highlighted a particular illustration which, uh, does indeed seem inaccurate. The court has indeed not yet made any decision on this.

gwalker 15y ago

Interesting point from the article: A legal expert on intellectual property cases, who declined to be named, asserted that when pictures are filed both in the complaint and in separate productions, those in the complaint would be considered more important. **Visual evidence presented there typically indicates that the plaintiff wants to emphasize its significance, he said.** Presumably Apple are pretty experienced in the intricacies of patent law so I don't think you can blame the intern who can't use Photoshop...

joebadmo 15y ago

If the charge is that Samsung hardware is so close to Apple's that it would fool a normal reasonable person, isn't doctoring images sort of a tacit admission that it's not? I mean, if you really believed it to be true, why would you bother altering the images? I'm kind of confused about why this affects the patent lawsuit, though. I understand the German trademark dispute, but is the visual look of the iPhone included in the patent?

ajross 15y ago

Apple has to get this under control. They're burning good will like crazy here. Tech devices have been cloned since the dawn of the industry. They're not meaningfully going to stop this, and this kind of game just makes them look petty and insecure.

pedalpete 15y ago

When your phone is a plain black square with rounded corners, don't they all look the same? http://mobile.engadget.com/2008/11/04/htcs-touch-hd-gets-overseas-hands-on-treatment/ http://mobile.engadget.com/2008/11/04/htcs-touch-hd-gets-ove... http://www.theandroider.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/abfd4_17064_motimage_touchzine_hd_face-578x1024.jpg http://www.theandroider.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/ca... Are we really expecting the courts to compare aspect ratios, and corner radii to decide that one is to similar to another? Where will we draw the line? Sorry, Apple, 4" screen with 11mm thickness was already done by htc, your phone is only 2mm thinner, that's too close to the other devices.