4 ms·

Dissociatives (e.g., ketamine, nitrous oxide, xenon, phencyclidine, dextromethorphan in cough syrup) are too addictive, too pleasurable, and reliably produce lo

Dissociatives (e.g., ketamine, nitrous oxide, xenon, phencyclidine, dextromethorphan in cough syrup) are too addictive, too pleasurable, and reliably produce long-lasting delusional states (e.g., as observed in John C. Lilly and Marcia Moore and Tony Hsieh). It is disturbing to read Marcia Moore's "Journeys Into the Bright World" (http://pdf.textfiles.com/books/journeysbrightworld.pdf http://pdf.textfiles.com/books/journeysbrightworld.pdf) where she recounts that John C. Lilly warned her to stop using ketamine. She died in the woods not long afterward, hypothermia after injecting ketamine, trying to hide her addiction from her family. John C. Lilly himself went clean after decades of delusion, but never fully recovered, mentally. For a frank summary of the dangers, see D. M. Turner's "The Essential Psychedelic Guide". Before he died in his bathtub (after injecting ketamine), he wrote the following (https://www.ketamine.co.uk/dmturner/index.html https://www.ketamine.co.uk/dmturner/index.html): "A major concern regarding safe use of Ketamine is its very high potential for psychological addiction. A fairly large percentage of those who try Ketamine will consume it non-stop until their supply is exhausted. I've seen this in friends I've known for many years who are regular psychedelic users and have never before had problems controlling their drug consumption. And I've seen the lives of several people who developed an addiction to Ketamine take downward turns." "After about two years of once-per-week Ketamine use I even found that I had developed an addiction. Although it was less severe than what I've described above, it took considerable effort to break the cycle of repeatedly using it, even though I was aware of detrimental effects that it was causing. Since that time I've used Ketamine only occasionally, but find that I must continually exercise a high degree of will power to prevent myself from falling into a pattern of regular use. Amongst those I know who use Ketamine, I've seen very few who can use it in a balanced manner if they have access to it." So, all the dissociative psychedelics (NMDA receptor antagonists) seem to be bad. They should be avoided. On the other hand, there are other classes of psychedelics that are unambiguously good: tryptamines (e.g., psilocybin) and phenethylamines (e.g., mescaline). These drugs produce informative, useful, introspective, challenging mental states and are NOT prone to abuse. These are the valuable psychedelics.

diegoperini 5y ago
> NOT prone to abuse Citation needed.
- nawgz 5y ago
  I picked psilocybin for you. "Psilocybin is not considered to be addictive nor does it cause compulsive use" - [0] [0]: https://drugpolicy.org/drug-facts/are-psilocybin-mushrooms-addictive https://drugpolicy.org/drug-facts/are-psilocybin-mushrooms-a...
  - NotSashaShulgin 5y ago
    For those too lazy to follow the link: "Psilocybin is not considered to be addictive nor does it cause compulsive use. One reason is that the intense experience, which can be physically and mentally challenging, may cause people using psilocybin to limit their frequency of use." "Another reason is that the human body quickly builds tolerance to psilocybin, such that people require much higher doses after only a few days of repeated use, making it extremely difficult to have any effect after more than four days of repeated usage."
  - andrewl 5y ago
    You can still be damaged by a drug even if you are not addicted to it.
    - nawgz 5y ago
      Yes, but that has nothing to do with drug abuse. That has to do with the fact that it's drugs.
  - aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
    I know people who got fucked up for years due to a single shroom or LSD trip. Some of them got sorted out eventually, others didn’t.
    - pacoWebConsult 5y ago
colinmhayes 5y ago
> unambiguously good: tryptamines (e.g., psilocybin) and phenethylamines (e.g., mescaline). My friends uncle died jumping off a building on acid. Not one of the psychedelics you named, but having done all three I certainly think such a drastic action is possible on mushrooms or mescaline. Whether this means they aren't unambiguously good is up for debate I guess.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Stupid tourists on mushrooms have killed themselves in Amsterdam more than once by defenestration.
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    technically defenestration is when you throw someone else out the window
    - bitxbitxbitcoin 5y ago
      The word would be self-defenestration. Which is how I learned of the word defenestration to begin with.
dang 5y ago
What happened to Lilly? I was always curious about that. (Side note while I have you: if your real name isn't SashaShulgin can you please email hn@ycombinator.com with a different username we can rename you to? It's distracting to use a username like that if it's communicating the wrong thing.)
- NotSashaShulgin 5y ago
  Sasha and Ann Shulgin famously believed that dissociatives have no safe role in psychedelic therapy: "We are strongly prejudiced against psychedelic drugs which cause such mind-body separation, as we are against any drug which causes separation from feelings and emotions. However, we acknowledge that the ketamine state can be highly instructive for researchers trying to understand the functions of the human mind." Alexander (Sasha) Shulgin passed away in 2014. He is a historical figure. His lab will eventually be an official historical landmark. Is it really so confusing that I use his nickname as a handle online? John C. Lilly died of heart failure at age 86 in Los Angeles on September 30, 2001. His remains were cremated.
  - dang 5y ago
    I thought he might have had a kid named Sasha and that it might be you. So yeah, I'd say it's confusing - you have to distinguish your own point of view (no doubt entirely clear on the point) from the rest of us who are looking at this with a lot less information and widely varying assumptions. Not everyone knows that he has died, for example. Re Lilly - sorry for not being clearer - what I'm curious about is that you seemed to imply that at a certain point he was adversely affected by his own use of dissociatives, that it had some profound effect on him, and that he never fully recovered from it. I was curious to hear more about what happened there. I'm not super familiar with his work but I read a bit and found it to be a mixture of penetratingly lucid and completely unintelligible (mostly the latter).
    - NotSashaShulgin 5y ago
      Ok, rename me to NotSashaShulgin if you must. John C. Lilly's later books are a beautiful example of ketamine delusions and loss of contact with reality. Quoting Wikipedia: In 1974, Lilly's research using various psychoactive drugs led him to believe in the existence of a certain hierarchical group of cosmic entities, the lowest of which he later dubbed Earth Coincidence Control Office (E.C.C.O.) in an autobiography published jointly with his wife Antonietta (often called Toni). Lilly states that "[t]here exists a Cosmic Coincidence Control Center (CCCC) with a Galactic substation called Galactic Coincidence Control (GCC). Within GCC is the Solar System Control Unit (SSCU), within which is the Earth Coincidence Control Office (ECCO)." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Lilly https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Lilly
twofornone 5y ago
>On the other hand, there are other classes of psychedelics that are unambiguously good: tryptamines (e.g., psilocybin) and phenethylamines (e.g., mescaline). I don't know that I would necessarily classify hallucinogenic psychedelics as unambiguously good. I suspect the potential negative effects are understudied and under reported. Beyond hallucinogen persisting perception disorder (admittedly rare), medium-long term induced psychosis (also probably rare), while users frequently report positive effects both short and long term, there are potentially profound psychological/neurological alterations occurring post use which may not be obviously detrimental. What further complicates the issue is that, because of the strong dependence on existing psychological state (set and setting), its quite possible that a user's culture becomes a significant confounding factor and that some groups of people may in fact be worse off after using some or all such psychedelics. Personally, a year or two post experience I noticed that certain emotions are more apparent to my perception which honestly I would have preferred to continue ignoring. I still suspect that for the vast majority of people hallucinogens can be positive but let's not make the mistake of preemptively asserting that they are harmless.
- samat 5y ago
  Would you please elaborate on emotions which are more apparent then before? In email s@samat.me if not in public.
dimal 5y ago
I think your generalizations are very wrong. Ketamine may be bad when abused, but when used correctly for depression, it can be extremely effective and good. It changed my life greatly, for the better. And I wouldn’t say that psilocybin is unequivocally good either. The worst trip I ever had was on mushrooms. It was extremely traumatic in a way that had lasting effects. It changed my life greatly, for the worse.
- Natsu 5y ago
  So, I'll agree with that but with a caveat, because I have a loved one who was part of a licensed esketamine (s-ketamine) trial. It certainly can pretty much just "turn off" some depression and I've seen it do that (even somehow avoiding problems from accidentally forgetting to take the other meds soon after). But it can also cause powerful and disturbing psychosis. In our case, I woke up at knife point to someone driven to tears by a psychosis telling them to kill me. I managed to de-escalate that without any harm done, but suffice it to say, caution is strongly advised with such things.
axtheter 5y ago
I'm not going to argue with you in general about the dangers of ketamine et al, I have seen it myself. But personally (this is anecdata) I have never had the compulsion to use it like so many others for some reason. Quasi-autism, a very strong internal governor limiting any compulsions <other than work...>, my NON-use of it as a substitute for cocaine like the majority of people... Drugs are only the tools for trying to manage whatever internal psychological processes are driving you to take them and if those processes are too 'strong', people go down the path you speak of. It is not the tool's fault, etc. I was using K as a temporary vacation from reality aka k-hole. Lovely wonderful experiences and I innately knew it was helping with the depression. The most important factor was the set/setting/almost ritualistic use. And I don't do it anymore, never did it so much like so many other people.... and no compulsion to either. I have been sitting on some MXE for a decade now as well... I am an outlier?? Ritual is an element that is sorely lacking in the majority of westerner's use of psychedelics - it does comes with the ayahuasca package "just because that is what you're supposed to do" aka drugs tourism. But the other stuff... This element of ritual is what I think you're overlooking. Ritual also would have prevented DM Turner from taking ketamine before taking a bath which is a very really bad idea; he was really blatantly ignoring the risk factors for whatever reason. This reminds me of a psychologist, Mexican I think, who in the 70s IIRC was using datura and other such things in his work helping patients. He's a bit obscure and I haven't found much info (I will hunt down my notes if people insist). So my opinion is that dissociatives have their use, but you really need to know what you are doing which most people do not. Personally, I think salvia is very useful... but I am sort of autistic and there is an Internet theory I came across that only the autistically inclined really take to salvia; neurotypicals can't handle the weirdness at some deep level. I have no proof of this but from what I've read and personally know, of course... As an aside, I met Ann and Sasha a number of times 20 odd years ago. So I personally find it a bit irksome you're using such a handle. You've agreed to change it which I commend you for... For the newbies who know the name, but not that he's dead, it would be confusing. But you are relaying correct and valuable information, so that is good - except for the wide ranging generalizations ... ;)

diegoperini 5y ago

> NOT prone to abuse Citation needed.

nawgz 5y ago
I picked psilocybin for you. "Psilocybin is not considered to be addictive nor does it cause compulsive use" - [0] [0]: https://drugpolicy.org/drug-facts/are-psilocybin-mushrooms-addictive https://drugpolicy.org/drug-facts/are-psilocybin-mushrooms-a...
- NotSashaShulgin 5y ago
  For those too lazy to follow the link: "Psilocybin is not considered to be addictive nor does it cause compulsive use. One reason is that the intense experience, which can be physically and mentally challenging, may cause people using psilocybin to limit their frequency of use." "Another reason is that the human body quickly builds tolerance to psilocybin, such that people require much higher doses after only a few days of repeated use, making it extremely difficult to have any effect after more than four days of repeated usage."
- andrewl 5y ago
  You can still be damaged by a drug even if you are not addicted to it.
  - nawgz 5y ago
    Yes, but that has nothing to do with drug abuse. That has to do with the fact that it's drugs.
- aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
  I know people who got fucked up for years due to a single shroom or LSD trip. Some of them got sorted out eventually, others didn’t.
  - pacoWebConsult 5y ago

colinmhayes 5y ago

> unambiguously good: tryptamines (e.g., psilocybin) and phenethylamines (e.g., mescaline). My friends uncle died jumping off a building on acid. Not one of the psychedelics you named, but having done all three I certainly think such a drastic action is possible on mushrooms or mescaline. Whether this means they aren't unambiguously good is up for debate I guess.

jacquesm 5y ago
Stupid tourists on mushrooms have killed themselves in Amsterdam more than once by defenestration.
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  technically defenestration is when you throw someone else out the window
  - bitxbitxbitcoin 5y ago
    The word would be self-defenestration. Which is how I learned of the word defenestration to begin with.

dang 5y ago

What happened to Lilly? I was always curious about that. (Side note while I have you: if your real name isn't SashaShulgin can you please email hn@ycombinator.com with a different username we can rename you to? It's distracting to use a username like that if it's communicating the wrong thing.)

NotSashaShulgin 5y ago
Sasha and Ann Shulgin famously believed that dissociatives have no safe role in psychedelic therapy: "We are strongly prejudiced against psychedelic drugs which cause such mind-body separation, as we are against any drug which causes separation from feelings and emotions. However, we acknowledge that the ketamine state can be highly instructive for researchers trying to understand the functions of the human mind." Alexander (Sasha) Shulgin passed away in 2014. He is a historical figure. His lab will eventually be an official historical landmark. Is it really so confusing that I use his nickname as a handle online? John C. Lilly died of heart failure at age 86 in Los Angeles on September 30, 2001. His remains were cremated.
- dang 5y ago
  I thought he might have had a kid named Sasha and that it might be you. So yeah, I'd say it's confusing - you have to distinguish your own point of view (no doubt entirely clear on the point) from the rest of us who are looking at this with a lot less information and widely varying assumptions. Not everyone knows that he has died, for example. Re Lilly - sorry for not being clearer - what I'm curious about is that you seemed to imply that at a certain point he was adversely affected by his own use of dissociatives, that it had some profound effect on him, and that he never fully recovered from it. I was curious to hear more about what happened there. I'm not super familiar with his work but I read a bit and found it to be a mixture of penetratingly lucid and completely unintelligible (mostly the latter).
  - NotSashaShulgin 5y ago
    Ok, rename me to NotSashaShulgin if you must. John C. Lilly's later books are a beautiful example of ketamine delusions and loss of contact with reality. Quoting Wikipedia: In 1974, Lilly's research using various psychoactive drugs led him to believe in the existence of a certain hierarchical group of cosmic entities, the lowest of which he later dubbed Earth Coincidence Control Office (E.C.C.O.) in an autobiography published jointly with his wife Antonietta (often called Toni). Lilly states that "[t]here exists a Cosmic Coincidence Control Center (CCCC) with a Galactic substation called Galactic Coincidence Control (GCC). Within GCC is the Solar System Control Unit (SSCU), within which is the Earth Coincidence Control Office (ECCO)." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Lilly https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Lilly

twofornone 5y ago

>On the other hand, there are other classes of psychedelics that are unambiguously good: tryptamines (e.g., psilocybin) and phenethylamines (e.g., mescaline). I don't know that I would necessarily classify hallucinogenic psychedelics as unambiguously good. I suspect the potential negative effects are understudied and under reported. Beyond hallucinogen persisting perception disorder (admittedly rare), medium-long term induced psychosis (also probably rare), while users frequently report positive effects both short and long term, there are potentially profound psychological/neurological alterations occurring post use which may not be obviously detrimental. What further complicates the issue is that, because of the strong dependence on existing psychological state (set and setting), its quite possible that a user's culture becomes a significant confounding factor and that some groups of people may in fact be worse off after using some or all such psychedelics. Personally, a year or two post experience I noticed that certain emotions are more apparent to my perception which honestly I would have preferred to continue ignoring. I still suspect that for the vast majority of people hallucinogens can be positive but let's not make the mistake of preemptively asserting that they are harmless.

samat 5y ago
Would you please elaborate on emotions which are more apparent then before? In email s@samat.me if not in public.

dimal 5y ago

I think your generalizations are very wrong. Ketamine may be bad when abused, but when used correctly for depression, it can be extremely effective and good. It changed my life greatly, for the better. And I wouldn’t say that psilocybin is unequivocally good either. The worst trip I ever had was on mushrooms. It was extremely traumatic in a way that had lasting effects. It changed my life greatly, for the worse.

Natsu 5y ago
So, I'll agree with that but with a caveat, because I have a loved one who was part of a licensed esketamine (s-ketamine) trial. It certainly can pretty much just "turn off" some depression and I've seen it do that (even somehow avoiding problems from accidentally forgetting to take the other meds soon after). But it can also cause powerful and disturbing psychosis. In our case, I woke up at knife point to someone driven to tears by a psychosis telling them to kill me. I managed to de-escalate that without any harm done, but suffice it to say, caution is strongly advised with such things.

axtheter 5y ago

I'm not going to argue with you in general about the dangers of ketamine et al, I have seen it myself. But personally (this is anecdata) I have never had the compulsion to use it like so many others for some reason. Quasi-autism, a very strong internal governor limiting any compulsions <other than work...>, my NON-use of it as a substitute for cocaine like the majority of people... Drugs are only the tools for trying to manage whatever internal psychological processes are driving you to take them and if those processes are too 'strong', people go down the path you speak of. It is not the tool's fault, etc. I was using K as a temporary vacation from reality aka k-hole. Lovely wonderful experiences and I innately knew it was helping with the depression. The most important factor was the set/setting/almost ritualistic use. And I don't do it anymore, never did it so much like so many other people.... and no compulsion to either. I have been sitting on some MXE for a decade now as well... I am an outlier?? Ritual is an element that is sorely lacking in the majority of westerner's use of psychedelics - it does comes with the ayahuasca package "just because that is what you're supposed to do" aka drugs tourism. But the other stuff... This element of ritual is what I think you're overlooking. Ritual also would have prevented DM Turner from taking ketamine before taking a bath which is a very really bad idea; he was really blatantly ignoring the risk factors for whatever reason. This reminds me of a psychologist, Mexican I think, who in the 70s IIRC was using datura and other such things in his work helping patients. He's a bit obscure and I haven't found much info (I will hunt down my notes if people insist). So my opinion is that dissociatives have their use, but you really need to know what you are doing which most people do not. Personally, I think salvia is very useful... but I am sort of autistic and there is an Internet theory I came across that only the autistically inclined really take to salvia; neurotypicals can't handle the weirdness at some deep level. I have no proof of this but from what I've read and personally know, of course... As an aside, I met Ann and Sasha a number of times 20 odd years ago. So I personally find it a bit irksome you're using such a handle. You've agreed to change it which I commend you for... For the newbies who know the name, but not that he's dead, it would be confusing. But you are relaying correct and valuable information, so that is good - except for the wide ranging generalizations ... ;)