8 ms·

Seems like this is a case of Debian governance working as designed. I'm surprised that 'which' isn't POSIX though.

wutbrodo 5y ago
Absolutely. Transparent governance is really hard, and it was quite nice to see an example of a conflict handled and resolved so well, right out in the open.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  Not like systemd, then. [Edit] I didn't mean the systemd thing lacked transparency; I just mean the result wasn't "nice".
  - marcosdumay 5y ago
    The systemd thing was extremely transparent. It didn't reach a solution that satisfied everybody, but there wasn't any secrecy on it.
    - denton-scratch 5y ago
      Yes. I have no gripe about the process. (Well, I don't think it was a technical decision, so it shouldn't have been dumped on the TC). It was pellucidly transparent. Exemplary, really. I just really don't like systemd, so I'm sorry that it became the Debian default init. My gripe is with the outcome, not the process. Most package-maintainers must have disagreed with me. It's OK, I'm used to people not agreeing with me. /me still a Debian user, with sysvinit.
      - tannhaeuser 5y ago
        Out of interest, are you using Devuan or other Debian distro specifically designed to be systemd-free?
        denton-scratch 5y ago
        Not Devuan, normal vanilla Debian (and one Debian-Xen VM host). There are instructions online for removing systemd; I think it is cause for regret that there isn't an install option and a commandline tool to "just do it". It's not tricky; it's just a nuisance that you have to do it at all. [Edit] And a debconfig thing. It should be that easy to switch. [Edit 2] I deserve to be voted down, I realise! I called for a change that I claimed was easy, without offering a patch! I should shut up, and my remarks should be very pale grey.
        rascul 5y ago
        Is this still relevant? https://wiki.debian.org/systemd#Installing_without_systemd https://wiki.debian.org/systemd#Installing_without_systemd I haven't used debian for awhile, and longer without systemd, I don't really know if that section still applies to the latest debian stable.
      - voidr 5y ago
        What tangible thing does systemd do that hurts your usage of the OS? If I would hack into your computer, install systemd and set up a few clever aliases for your sysvinit commands, would you ever notice that I have done that? I see this hard anti-systemd sentiment from some vocal people, but I have yet to see any actual problems that systemd has caused. I know that systemd is not a POSIX standard, but neither is sysvinit.
        marcosdumay 5y ago
        Systemd broke my computers plenty of times; the closed logging system spread the logs into the things systemd managed and what the application manages; there were the DNS problems that Debian solved quickly; and the moronic timeouts, why fail a service in a second when you can keep retrying and increasing the timeout for 15 minutes, dragging the boot sequence and making sure nobody can fix the problem for all that time? There were many more, but I don't write it down. Systemd is a horrible piece of software that solves a very important problem.
        denton-scratch 5y ago
        > What tangible thing does systemd do that hurts your usage of the OS? Well, binary logging, for a start. Usurping DNS. Actually, let's not go down that path - it would be a long argument, and I've already lost it, years ago. > would you ever notice that I have done that? Umm, yes. My case isn't that systemd is bad; it's that I objected to Debian making systemd the default init, and that it's not very easy to make a non-default init the active init. I have a preference, I don't think I have to justify it, but the Debian change made it hard for me to exercise that preference. That's all.
        krinchan 5y ago
        I always feel like journald was not fully complete before major distros swapped over to systemd. I like the problems it was trying to solve and I get the reasons journald went with a binary database file. I’ve personally been burned multiple times at work by log monitors missing log messages due to logrotate. It isn’t often, but often enough I’m glad for the solution. The thing that hurt was that they did all this work for better structured data and then the only remote logging solution (that was really usable) at the time was syslog. Remote logging has gotten better depending on what sort of central logging vendor you’re using.
WastingMyTime89 5y ago
Still a gigantic waste of everyone time. They could just have kept which has it has been for more than a decade and nothing would have happened. That's the decision that prevailed in the end but the fact that it had to go all the way to the Technical Committee before sanity prevailed says a lot about the utter madness of the Debian development process.
- rwmj 5y ago
  > Still a gigantic waste of everyone time. It's a voluntary organization, I guess people enjoy this, and the decision was taken in the open. There are worse things in the world right now :-)
- buitreVirtual 5y ago
  If there wasn't a committee, the change would have been made and a lot of people would have suffered. In this particular case, the time spent in following the process is negligible compared to the damage this change would have caused.
- ysavir 5y ago
  My take away is that they have a great system which allowed for voices to be heard, perspectives to be presented, and for an ultimate decision made in the best interest of Debian users. Doesn't seem a waste of time to me.
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
  I don't get why they can't switch to GNU which and put it in whatever package it harmonizes with. Throwing out deprecation notices for core utilities is irresponsible.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > gigantic waste of everyone time Debian is extraordinarily successful, so the time seems well spent. Who here has managed an equally successful project?
- NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
  This view can be summarized as "why can't the package maintainers just do the right thing themselves all the time and get along with everybody?" which is just an astonishing question to someone who has actually worked with other humans.
0xbadcafebee 5y ago
The POSIX shell builtin command -v <name> basically already functions like which, and the whole purpose of which is to tell you where in $PATH a command is
- Pxtl 5y ago
  It doesn't function exactly like "which" because it's missing two key features: an intuitive name, and a million man-hours of experience being used.

Absolutely. Transparent governance is really hard, and it was quite nice to see an example of a conflict handled and resolved so well, right out in the open.

denton-scratch 5y ago
Not like systemd, then. [Edit] I didn't mean the systemd thing lacked transparency; I just mean the result wasn't "nice".
- marcosdumay 5y ago
  The systemd thing was extremely transparent. It didn't reach a solution that satisfied everybody, but there wasn't any secrecy on it.
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    Yes. I have no gripe about the process. (Well, I don't think it was a technical decision, so it shouldn't have been dumped on the TC). It was pellucidly transparent. Exemplary, really. I just really don't like systemd, so I'm sorry that it became the Debian default init. My gripe is with the outcome, not the process. Most package-maintainers must have disagreed with me. It's OK, I'm used to people not agreeing with me. /me still a Debian user, with sysvinit.
    - tannhaeuser 5y ago
      Out of interest, are you using Devuan or other Debian distro specifically designed to be systemd-free?
      - denton-scratch 5y ago
        Not Devuan, normal vanilla Debian (and one Debian-Xen VM host). There are instructions online for removing systemd; I think it is cause for regret that there isn't an install option and a commandline tool to "just do it". It's not tricky; it's just a nuisance that you have to do it at all. [Edit] And a debconfig thing. It should be that easy to switch. [Edit 2] I deserve to be voted down, I realise! I called for a change that I claimed was easy, without offering a patch! I should shut up, and my remarks should be very pale grey.
        rascul 5y ago
        Is this still relevant? https://wiki.debian.org/systemd#Installing_without_systemd https://wiki.debian.org/systemd#Installing_without_systemd I haven't used debian for awhile, and longer without systemd, I don't really know if that section still applies to the latest debian stable.
    - voidr 5y ago
      What tangible thing does systemd do that hurts your usage of the OS? If I would hack into your computer, install systemd and set up a few clever aliases for your sysvinit commands, would you ever notice that I have done that? I see this hard anti-systemd sentiment from some vocal people, but I have yet to see any actual problems that systemd has caused. I know that systemd is not a POSIX standard, but neither is sysvinit.
      - marcosdumay 5y ago
        Systemd broke my computers plenty of times; the closed logging system spread the logs into the things systemd managed and what the application manages; there were the DNS problems that Debian solved quickly; and the moronic timeouts, why fail a service in a second when you can keep retrying and increasing the timeout for 15 minutes, dragging the boot sequence and making sure nobody can fix the problem for all that time? There were many more, but I don't write it down. Systemd is a horrible piece of software that solves a very important problem.
      - denton-scratch 5y ago
        > What tangible thing does systemd do that hurts your usage of the OS? Well, binary logging, for a start. Usurping DNS. Actually, let's not go down that path - it would be a long argument, and I've already lost it, years ago. > would you ever notice that I have done that? Umm, yes. My case isn't that systemd is bad; it's that I objected to Debian making systemd the default init, and that it's not very easy to make a non-default init the active init. I have a preference, I don't think I have to justify it, but the Debian change made it hard for me to exercise that preference. That's all.
        krinchan 5y ago
        I always feel like journald was not fully complete before major distros swapped over to systemd. I like the problems it was trying to solve and I get the reasons journald went with a binary database file. I’ve personally been burned multiple times at work by log monitors missing log messages due to logrotate. It isn’t often, but often enough I’m glad for the solution. The thing that hurt was that they did all this work for better structured data and then the only remote logging solution (that was really usable) at the time was syslog. Remote logging has gotten better depending on what sort of central logging vendor you’re using.

WastingMyTime89 5y ago

Still a gigantic waste of everyone time. They could just have kept which has it has been for more than a decade and nothing would have happened. That's the decision that prevailed in the end but the fact that it had to go all the way to the Technical Committee before sanity prevailed says a lot about the utter madness of the Debian development process.

rwmj 5y ago
> Still a gigantic waste of everyone time. It's a voluntary organization, I guess people enjoy this, and the decision was taken in the open. There are worse things in the world right now :-)
buitreVirtual 5y ago
If there wasn't a committee, the change would have been made and a lot of people would have suffered. In this particular case, the time spent in following the process is negligible compared to the damage this change would have caused.
ysavir 5y ago
My take away is that they have a great system which allowed for voices to be heard, perspectives to be presented, and for an ultimate decision made in the best interest of Debian users. Doesn't seem a waste of time to me.
kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
I don't get why they can't switch to GNU which and put it in whatever package it harmonizes with. Throwing out deprecation notices for core utilities is irresponsible.
wolverine876 5y ago
> gigantic waste of everyone time Debian is extraordinarily successful, so the time seems well spent. Who here has managed an equally successful project?
NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
This view can be summarized as "why can't the package maintainers just do the right thing themselves all the time and get along with everybody?" which is just an astonishing question to someone who has actually worked with other humans.

0xbadcafebee 5y ago

The POSIX shell builtin command -v <name> basically already functions like which, and the whole purpose of which is to tell you where in $PATH a command is

Pxtl 5y ago
It doesn't function exactly like "which" because it's missing two key features: an intuitive name, and a million man-hours of experience being used.