5 ms·

Unless you're using a disconnected TV (i.e., no CATV/SATV/Internet), your viewing habits are being tracked and sold.

enragedcacti 5y ago
Roku TVs have this turned on by default but it is pretty easy to disable in settings. Exercise to the reader to see what is still sent when it's disabled.
FabHK 5y ago
Can I assume that a modern TV I buy works without internet? (I'd just want it to display stuff I feed it via HDMI or whatever).
- ReidZB 5y ago
  I have a couple modern LG 'smart' TVs that I don't connect to the internet, and they work just fine. As you say, they just display whatever is on the HDMI input. I've updated their firmware a couple times. I connect them with wired cat6 on their own isolated VLAN to update, and then disconnect them afterwards. Maybe I am a little unnecessarily paranoid about it, but I don't really trust TV manufacturers, not with some of the (maybe apocryphal) stories I've read.
  - snvzz 5y ago
    No, you're not being paranoid. This is the only way. And beware, they might still be connecting to some public wifi hotspot behind your back.
  - Freak_NL 5y ago
    Why even bother with firmware updates for a disconnected device? Did they bring any benefits?
    - Scoundreller 5y ago
      Probably because they ship beta devices as production quality.
      - ryanlol 5y ago
        It is literally impossible to ship “production quality” devices that actually support a decent amount of formats. Of course there will be bugs when you’re consuming content at the very bleeding edge. I’d rather still fight with getting some Dolby stuff to work than not have it at all.
    - ReidZB 5y ago
      Yep! I've had two nasty bugs (intermittent audio dropping and HDMI CEC power off being broken) that were fixed by firmware updates. I don't keep the firmware preemptively updated, though. I just did it as a debugging step in trying to fix some problems, and shockingly it did both times.
      - Freak_NL 5y ago
        Ah, it makes sense in that case. I have a decade old Sony Bravia that we got because it supported DVB-T (terrestrial digital television; now no longer in use because of a switch to DVB-T2) without the need for a set-top box. It has an Ethernet jack, but other than some experimentation after we got it I never connected it. I can't imagine ever trying to update its firmware at this point; no reward and plenty of risk. After DVB-T went we just stopped watching broadcast television, and this early 'smart' TV only gets turned on sitting on the HDMI input it gets from a receiver hooked up to loudspeakers and an HTPC with Netflix in a browser and other media. Of all its features the on/off button on the side is the only thing interacted with now. I've stopped repairing the remote years ago. I fully expect it to just die one of these days, and it will probably be the last smart TV we'll ever own.
  - darkteflon 5y ago
    This is how I roll, too. But every firmware update is a gamble. The latest update I did - last month - set the TV to regularly nag me on start-up about enabling “AI Recommendation” services, along with a couple of other new UX niggles. I have loved this TV (C9), but I can see what LG is doing and I do not like it at all. I was planning on getting a CX 48” for my desktop monitor but decided against it after this experience.
- gpvos 5y ago
  There have been stories that soon, TVs will come with a built-in mobile chip, or will try to connect to open wifi networks even if you don't configure them to. I don't know how much truth is in those stories, but I wouldn't put it past the TV manufacturers to do so.
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    They don’t even need to do that. Just contract with local TV networks to send data over their OTA TV streams that gets routed to the TV’s CPU instead of video decoder.
    - jqpabc123 5y ago
      ??? Routing data to the CPU wouldn't make much difference without a network connection to transmit the data back to central collection point.
      - Scoundreller 5y ago
        The endpoint is to deliver new and targeted ads. And firmware updates. Tracking won’t work without a phone home though. But that’s a solved problem. We’ve been delivering ads for a while without 100% knowing which are watched.
jqpabc123 5y ago
A lot of what I watch is digital broadcast TV. And the only connection my TV has is through HDMI to my computer. Even my dual ATSC broadcast tuner is driven by my PC so I can do all sorts of "smart" stuff like picture in a picture, split screen or watch one channel while recording another. Privacy is only half the issue. Freedom is the other half. Most manufacturers control what you're allowed to install on your "smart" TV. And most can't record either. How "dumb" is that?
gruez 5y ago
>SATV Do satellite TV boxes even have an uplink connection? AFAIK the satellite dish is one direction only.
- rjsw 5y ago
  My satellite TV box has an ethernet port on the back.
- murderfs 5y ago
  Lots of them require periodic internet access for distribution of key material.
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    Isn’t that sent over the air?
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  Even 1990s systems would have a 2400bps modem to phone in pay per view purchases. Policy requires a telephone connection, partly for the purpose of reducing subscription sharing. Pirates and many others wouldn’t or couldn’t plug them in. Once an update was built to check for a dial tone intermittently and eventually deactivate, so pirates created a 555 timer device with a 9V battery to generate a frequency close to the dialtone. Even though a dialtone is 2 frequencies, the modem accepted any single frequency remotely close to the right range. At some point, the provider would call subscribers with several boxes on the same sub that didn’t phone home and ask for “secret” numbers from all receivers, but someone quickly published a program that generated those keys. Saves legit customers from walking around the house too. Fun times.
curryst 5y ago
Even then, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if Google was selling Chromecast viewing data and similar for Amazon. If not on the receiver, the client (likely your phone) may be reporting it. And then if not that, wherever you're streaming from may be reporting viewing habits. This seems like another one of those things that's just intractable because the overhead is too high. You can limit who gets your viewing habits, but preventing anyone from getting them is hard. Similar to tracking on the internet. The solution is legislation, not playing cat and mouse with corporations.
- lrvick 5y ago
  My phone only runs open source software and my TVs and projectors around my home are hooked up to PCs that also only run open source software. All devices stream via Kodi from my NAS I will never have ads and always have complete privacy. I also don't have any streaming services because none of them have an option to avoid ads and maintain privacy no matter how much you pay them. When I can buy physical copies of content, I often do. Sadly in most cases the only way to consume modern media in full 4k quality for any amount of money with privacy and without ads, is piracy.

Roku TVs have this turned on by default but it is pretty easy to disable in settings. Exercise to the reader to see what is still sent when it's disabled.

FabHK 5y ago

Can I assume that a modern TV I buy works without internet? (I'd just want it to display stuff I feed it via HDMI or whatever).

ReidZB 5y ago
I have a couple modern LG 'smart' TVs that I don't connect to the internet, and they work just fine. As you say, they just display whatever is on the HDMI input. I've updated their firmware a couple times. I connect them with wired cat6 on their own isolated VLAN to update, and then disconnect them afterwards. Maybe I am a little unnecessarily paranoid about it, but I don't really trust TV manufacturers, not with some of the (maybe apocryphal) stories I've read.
- snvzz 5y ago
  No, you're not being paranoid. This is the only way. And beware, they might still be connecting to some public wifi hotspot behind your back.
- Freak_NL 5y ago
  Why even bother with firmware updates for a disconnected device? Did they bring any benefits?
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    Probably because they ship beta devices as production quality.
    - ryanlol 5y ago
      It is literally impossible to ship “production quality” devices that actually support a decent amount of formats. Of course there will be bugs when you’re consuming content at the very bleeding edge. I’d rather still fight with getting some Dolby stuff to work than not have it at all.
  - ReidZB 5y ago
    Yep! I've had two nasty bugs (intermittent audio dropping and HDMI CEC power off being broken) that were fixed by firmware updates. I don't keep the firmware preemptively updated, though. I just did it as a debugging step in trying to fix some problems, and shockingly it did both times.
    - Freak_NL 5y ago
      Ah, it makes sense in that case. I have a decade old Sony Bravia that we got because it supported DVB-T (terrestrial digital television; now no longer in use because of a switch to DVB-T2) without the need for a set-top box. It has an Ethernet jack, but other than some experimentation after we got it I never connected it. I can't imagine ever trying to update its firmware at this point; no reward and plenty of risk. After DVB-T went we just stopped watching broadcast television, and this early 'smart' TV only gets turned on sitting on the HDMI input it gets from a receiver hooked up to loudspeakers and an HTPC with Netflix in a browser and other media. Of all its features the on/off button on the side is the only thing interacted with now. I've stopped repairing the remote years ago. I fully expect it to just die one of these days, and it will probably be the last smart TV we'll ever own.
- darkteflon 5y ago
  This is how I roll, too. But every firmware update is a gamble. The latest update I did - last month - set the TV to regularly nag me on start-up about enabling “AI Recommendation” services, along with a couple of other new UX niggles. I have loved this TV (C9), but I can see what LG is doing and I do not like it at all. I was planning on getting a CX 48” for my desktop monitor but decided against it after this experience.
gpvos 5y ago
There have been stories that soon, TVs will come with a built-in mobile chip, or will try to connect to open wifi networks even if you don't configure them to. I don't know how much truth is in those stories, but I wouldn't put it past the TV manufacturers to do so.
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  They don’t even need to do that. Just contract with local TV networks to send data over their OTA TV streams that gets routed to the TV’s CPU instead of video decoder.
  - jqpabc123 5y ago
    ??? Routing data to the CPU wouldn't make much difference without a network connection to transmit the data back to central collection point.
    - Scoundreller 5y ago
      The endpoint is to deliver new and targeted ads. And firmware updates. Tracking won’t work without a phone home though. But that’s a solved problem. We’ve been delivering ads for a while without 100% knowing which are watched.

jqpabc123 5y ago

A lot of what I watch is digital broadcast TV. And the only connection my TV has is through HDMI to my computer. Even my dual ATSC broadcast tuner is driven by my PC so I can do all sorts of "smart" stuff like picture in a picture, split screen or watch one channel while recording another. Privacy is only half the issue. Freedom is the other half. Most manufacturers control what you're allowed to install on your "smart" TV. And most can't record either. How "dumb" is that?

gruez 5y ago

>SATV Do satellite TV boxes even have an uplink connection? AFAIK the satellite dish is one direction only.

rjsw 5y ago
My satellite TV box has an ethernet port on the back.
murderfs 5y ago
Lots of them require periodic internet access for distribution of key material.
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  Isn’t that sent over the air?
Scoundreller 5y ago
Even 1990s systems would have a 2400bps modem to phone in pay per view purchases. Policy requires a telephone connection, partly for the purpose of reducing subscription sharing. Pirates and many others wouldn’t or couldn’t plug them in. Once an update was built to check for a dial tone intermittently and eventually deactivate, so pirates created a 555 timer device with a 9V battery to generate a frequency close to the dialtone. Even though a dialtone is 2 frequencies, the modem accepted any single frequency remotely close to the right range. At some point, the provider would call subscribers with several boxes on the same sub that didn’t phone home and ask for “secret” numbers from all receivers, but someone quickly published a program that generated those keys. Saves legit customers from walking around the house too. Fun times.

curryst 5y ago

Even then, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if Google was selling Chromecast viewing data and similar for Amazon. If not on the receiver, the client (likely your phone) may be reporting it. And then if not that, wherever you're streaming from may be reporting viewing habits. This seems like another one of those things that's just intractable because the overhead is too high. You can limit who gets your viewing habits, but preventing anyone from getting them is hard. Similar to tracking on the internet. The solution is legislation, not playing cat and mouse with corporations.

lrvick 5y ago
My phone only runs open source software and my TVs and projectors around my home are hooked up to PCs that also only run open source software. All devices stream via Kodi from my NAS I will never have ads and always have complete privacy. I also don't have any streaming services because none of them have an option to avoid ads and maintain privacy no matter how much you pay them. When I can buy physical copies of content, I often do. Sadly in most cases the only way to consume modern media in full 4k quality for any amount of money with privacy and without ads, is piracy.