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Keep in mind, a system of rules is just a system of rules. It takes someone to come along and knowingly look for "ah ha, gotcha" loopholes in a system to exploi

Keep in mind, a system of rules is just a system of rules. It takes someone to come along and knowingly look for "ah ha, gotcha" loopholes in a system to exploit for their own advantage. It's completely possible to look at a system, realize there's a flaw, and not take advantage of it--perhaps even try to fix the flaw you discovered. In the US, we're increasingly normalizing the culture of "well, it's legal" as to whether we should or shouldn't do something--the baseline of morales is becoming law. Part of this is driven by competitive forces that put us at critical disadvantages if we don't follow suit. Taking the "high road" often costs more and hinders us to points we can't survive, so even if you don't want to play exploitative games on systems and people, in some cases, your very livelihood may actually depend on it. "Don't hate the player, hate the game" comes to mind as players unwilling to come to a consensus that the game is flawed and adjust the rules so they can follow the intent of the game and not the flaws in the rules of the game.

FourHand451 5y ago
> It takes someone to come along and knowingly look for "ah ha, gotcha" loopholes in a system to exploit for their own advantage. Obviously it's not a positive thing in this case, but there seems to be a lot in common with a hacker sort of mindset here. Figuring out loopholes in laws seems awfully similar on some level to figuring out how a piece of tech works and making it do goofy things the designers never thought of or intended. Obviously, ethics enter into the equation, and there's a collection of things that are legal but unethical whether you're talking about legal loopholes or traditional hacking. Though given this discussion I'm able to think of more in the legal realm that's unethical. Maybe we need an analog to red-teamers in the legal world. I guess that's a lawyer? A certain kind of lawyer anyway.
- lostcolony 5y ago
  Need, yes. Have any way of achieving, no. Those holes are a feature, not a bug; to mix metaphors a bit, the black hats are funding the lobbyists.
pessimizer 5y ago
> It takes someone to come along and knowingly look for "ah ha, gotcha" loopholes in a system to exploit for their own advantage. This isn't a witty corner-case hack. This is a system intentionally designed to reward insiders.
chmod775 5y ago
In some countries courts have the option to honor the spirit of the law instead of the letter when deciding in favor of the defendant.
- agustif 5y ago
  I saw this phrase in the context on how people might cheat stupid rules from their religion without feeling bad about it
- webmaven 5y ago
  > In some countries courts have the option to honor the spirit of the law instead of the letter when deciding in favor of the defendant. In the US as well, though the system is geared toward hiding that fact. Jury nullification is a thing, though if you admit to have heard about it you'll be booted off the jury. Judges may not have as much leeway in sentencing as they used to, but they do for verdicts, though no judge likes to be reversed on appeal, the threat of which tends to constrain verdicts and opinions (which sometimes seems to lead to more creativity in findings of fact).
_jal 5y ago
> In the US, we're increasingly normalizing the culture of "well, it's legal" Yes, this makes me sick. I know a disturbing number of people who, to varying degrees, seem to think gaming things without regard to positive-sum outcomes is just... right and normal. People want to talk about a morality crisis, there's your crisis. Way too many people seem to want to live in Soviet-class corruption.
- vkou 5y ago
  > Yes, this makes me sick. I know a disturbing number of people who, to varying degrees, seem to think gaming things without regard to positive-sum outcomes is just... right and normal. It's right and normal because the US[1] has a very rule-based social system. Break the rules with the best of intentions, and you're not going to have a good time. Follow the rules with the worst of intentions, and you are. [1] And it is by no means alone in this.
- beepbooptheory 5y ago
  Indeed, reasserting true American values and ideals over the corrupt Soviet ones would help ease some of this moral failing. One thing that a society under communism has to deal with is reckoning with the fact that, actually, its all a game and there is little difference between what you can get away with, and what is right. In fact the Soviets celebrated and rewarded those people who, as individuals, could play the game best. while in America we have always valued human enterprise in itself. It's not about the money, it's about collectively coming together to maximize prosperity and well being. People know whats right and good because, as a nation, its manifest that greedy individuals should not be celebrated; goes against the whole idea of the United States that's been there from the start. It's really sad, I feel like I'm living in the USSR more and more everyday
  - codeproject 5y ago
    have you ever lived in the soviet union before? or You just read about it from the media? Not to defend the system here. Just a gentle reminder of a bit critical thinking. >its all a game and there is little difference between what you can get away with, and what is right<...Here what about the Jeffery Epstein?

FourHand451 5y ago

> It takes someone to come along and knowingly look for "ah ha, gotcha" loopholes in a system to exploit for their own advantage. Obviously it's not a positive thing in this case, but there seems to be a lot in common with a hacker sort of mindset here. Figuring out loopholes in laws seems awfully similar on some level to figuring out how a piece of tech works and making it do goofy things the designers never thought of or intended. Obviously, ethics enter into the equation, and there's a collection of things that are legal but unethical whether you're talking about legal loopholes or traditional hacking. Though given this discussion I'm able to think of more in the legal realm that's unethical. Maybe we need an analog to red-teamers in the legal world. I guess that's a lawyer? A certain kind of lawyer anyway.

lostcolony 5y ago
Need, yes. Have any way of achieving, no. Those holes are a feature, not a bug; to mix metaphors a bit, the black hats are funding the lobbyists.

pessimizer 5y ago

> It takes someone to come along and knowingly look for "ah ha, gotcha" loopholes in a system to exploit for their own advantage. This isn't a witty corner-case hack. This is a system intentionally designed to reward insiders.

chmod775 5y ago

In some countries courts have the option to honor the spirit of the law instead of the letter when deciding in favor of the defendant.

agustif 5y ago
I saw this phrase in the context on how people might cheat stupid rules from their religion without feeling bad about it
webmaven 5y ago
> In some countries courts have the option to honor the spirit of the law instead of the letter when deciding in favor of the defendant. In the US as well, though the system is geared toward hiding that fact. Jury nullification is a thing, though if you admit to have heard about it you'll be booted off the jury. Judges may not have as much leeway in sentencing as they used to, but they do for verdicts, though no judge likes to be reversed on appeal, the threat of which tends to constrain verdicts and opinions (which sometimes seems to lead to more creativity in findings of fact).

_jal 5y ago

> In the US, we're increasingly normalizing the culture of "well, it's legal" Yes, this makes me sick. I know a disturbing number of people who, to varying degrees, seem to think gaming things without regard to positive-sum outcomes is just... right and normal. People want to talk about a morality crisis, there's your crisis. Way too many people seem to want to live in Soviet-class corruption.

vkou 5y ago
> Yes, this makes me sick. I know a disturbing number of people who, to varying degrees, seem to think gaming things without regard to positive-sum outcomes is just... right and normal. It's right and normal because the US[1] has a very rule-based social system. Break the rules with the best of intentions, and you're not going to have a good time. Follow the rules with the worst of intentions, and you are. [1] And it is by no means alone in this.
beepbooptheory 5y ago
Indeed, reasserting true American values and ideals over the corrupt Soviet ones would help ease some of this moral failing. One thing that a society under communism has to deal with is reckoning with the fact that, actually, its all a game and there is little difference between what you can get away with, and what is right. In fact the Soviets celebrated and rewarded those people who, as individuals, could play the game best. while in America we have always valued human enterprise in itself. It's not about the money, it's about collectively coming together to maximize prosperity and well being. People know whats right and good because, as a nation, its manifest that greedy individuals should not be celebrated; goes against the whole idea of the United States that's been there from the start. It's really sad, I feel like I'm living in the USSR more and more everyday
- codeproject 5y ago
  have you ever lived in the soviet union before? or You just read about it from the media? Not to defend the system here. Just a gentle reminder of a bit critical thinking. >its all a game and there is little difference between what you can get away with, and what is right<...Here what about the Jeffery Epstein?