5 ms·

How hard can it be to design a self-driving boat for inland shipping? (2020)

37 points by dalben 5y ago

mr2loco 5y ago
there is a dutch startup called roboat thats working on autonomous boats for transportation of humans. Eventually we will also have autonomous Cargo ships
- NicoJuicy 5y ago
  As far as I'm aware, dot ocean does it too ( Belgium - https://www.dotocean.eu/ https://www.dotocean.eu/ ) By coincidence, they also had an experiment in Amsterdam. Note: Friends of me.
  - mr2loco 5y ago
    Looks awesome. Bookmarked the page tell your friends I'm rooting for them thats an interesting project
  - dalben 5y ago
    When I met them (years ago), they seemed to be more focused on open waters. In particular, I believe they were providing monitoring vessels in the Mediterranean during the refugee crisis.
    - NicoJuicy 5y ago
      There are multiple products as far as i know (it's not an easy market to get into) - Their IOT big data platform ( Atlantis - https://www.dotocean.eu/products/atlantis/ https://www.dotocean.eu/products/atlantis/) - Dredging canals cheaper - Autonomous boats - Underwater soil detection with a probe I'm not really sure if there is a specific focus on open waters though, but i don't think so.
harrylepotter 5y ago
From a practical sense though, wouldn’t the staffing costs pale in significance to the other costs of running a large vessel?
- dalben 5y ago
  It depends. For last-mile delivery and public transport with small vessels, that may not be the case. The city of Ghent was eyeing autonomous small crafts as "water taxis", and a big shipping provider wanted to do last-mile(s) delivery for shops, restaurants, and small parcel pickup points along a river. For the latter case, the vessel would still be manned, but instead of having to navigate, that person could sort and prepare parcels for delivery.
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  If we’re talking practical, you’d always need people on board to deal with mechanical breakdown or emergencies. And you’d need all the support systems and supplies need for them. After factoring that in, how large is the bridge crew on a container ship? Also, pirates would become a problem because taking over a ship without a crew would easier and way less risk.
  - xattt 5y ago
    The argument for easier piracy assumes that a self-driving ship would have a standard "people accessible" format. There's no reason for packaging of the vessel to remain the same. Consider patrol drones. They look nothing like something an individual can get into.
    - salawat 5y ago
      This was already addressed. Most of it would still have to be human accessible for maintenance/emergency purposes. If you're going to have to potentially service the thing underway, there is no point redoing the packaging. Besides which, an automated ship is about a trio of tugs, a computer replacement, and a buncha fuel away from anywhere.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Havoc 5y ago
For those interested in this sort of stuff have a look at YouTube channel rctestflight - very cool diy projects. Less ML and more solar powered waypoints but still found it insightful on the unique challenge water provides
yobbo 5y ago
Railways outcompeted canals for shipping, and then road trucks outcompeted railways. Controlling the boat near the dock is probably more difficult than cars or air planes since swells/waves/winds can move the boat relative to the dock. The robot needs to read the water and wind to protect the boat from collisions. As taxis, docking/taking on passengers is tricky since it needs to handle situations when people cling onto rails and risk getting stuck between the boat and the dock.
- lbriner 5y ago
  There are already gps-based systems that can do this on large ships but they are designed for open-water and can keep the boat surprisingly stable even in high winds as long as the ship has thrusters. You are right though, being by the dock is harder although at this point, you are likely to have some kind of personnel to help tether the boat to the quay.
- Gwypaas 5y ago
  All depends on how far you go with your maneuvering capabilities, which is simply related to costs. Dynamic positioning [0] has existed for a long while and has now moved down even to small dual engined boats [1], on the other hand it requires much more tech and sideways and rotational thrust capabilities than what regular cargo vessels have. A single prop with a bow thruster, or especially without, can't move freely in the 2D space which makes it much more complicated because you have to move towards the dock with the correct angle depending on wind, current and what not. Then time your maneuvers while taking the environment and for example prop walk [2] and other effects into consideration. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_positioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_positioning [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=491RkaOYfr4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=491RkaOYfr4 Volvo Penta Assisted Docking [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propeller_walk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propeller_walk
  - yobbo 5y ago
    But the space is not 2D unless it's a small calm canal. Waves/swells/wakes can make the difference in vertical position of the bow relative to the stern change by meters (or whatever depending on length) but it can be significant relative to human size. In some situations it might be impossible to take on/let off passengers, so the boat would need to plan its motions taking this into account while otherwise not obstructing or causing danger. The goal then for the robot is not to position itself in 2D space with meter-level precision, the goal is to behave reliably and predictably in the harbour under chaotic circumstances, with sub-meter precision. That requires predicting movements and drift, taking wind into account. Since this is almost impossible, skippers learn to read the water/wind to understand what is appropriate for safety distances, speed, angles, etc. A road vehicle could just refuse to move if the environment becomes unrecognizable, but a boat keeps on moving, so the robot can not just "give up". It's true that thrusters increase the manoeuvrability.
WastingMyTime89 5y ago
This is an interesting article but it needs a big disclaimer. They are designing a self-driving boat without using sonars not radars due to their budget. It's fun but of little relevance to the real world. Most of their problems would be solved or at least heavily alleviated with access to the relevant sensors. Still, that's quite impressive for a college project built on a shoe string.
RappingBoomer 5y ago
hmmm..stuff still happens on inland waterways...bad stuff...sometimes the gales of november come early

37 points by dalben 5y ago

there is a dutch startup called roboat thats working on autonomous boats for transportation of humans. Eventually we will also have autonomous Cargo ships

NicoJuicy 5y ago
As far as I'm aware, dot ocean does it too ( Belgium - https://www.dotocean.eu/ https://www.dotocean.eu/ ) By coincidence, they also had an experiment in Amsterdam. Note: Friends of me.
- mr2loco 5y ago
  Looks awesome. Bookmarked the page tell your friends I'm rooting for them thats an interesting project
- dalben 5y ago
  When I met them (years ago), they seemed to be more focused on open waters. In particular, I believe they were providing monitoring vessels in the Mediterranean during the refugee crisis.
  - NicoJuicy 5y ago
    There are multiple products as far as i know (it's not an easy market to get into) - Their IOT big data platform ( Atlantis - https://www.dotocean.eu/products/atlantis/ https://www.dotocean.eu/products/atlantis/) - Dredging canals cheaper - Autonomous boats - Underwater soil detection with a probe I'm not really sure if there is a specific focus on open waters though, but i don't think so.

harrylepotter 5y ago

From a practical sense though, wouldn’t the staffing costs pale in significance to the other costs of running a large vessel?

dalben 5y ago
It depends. For last-mile delivery and public transport with small vessels, that may not be the case. The city of Ghent was eyeing autonomous small crafts as "water taxis", and a big shipping provider wanted to do last-mile(s) delivery for shops, restaurants, and small parcel pickup points along a river. For the latter case, the vessel would still be manned, but instead of having to navigate, that person could sort and prepare parcels for delivery.
kayodelycaon 5y ago
If we’re talking practical, you’d always need people on board to deal with mechanical breakdown or emergencies. And you’d need all the support systems and supplies need for them. After factoring that in, how large is the bridge crew on a container ship? Also, pirates would become a problem because taking over a ship without a crew would easier and way less risk.
- xattt 5y ago
  The argument for easier piracy assumes that a self-driving ship would have a standard "people accessible" format. There's no reason for packaging of the vessel to remain the same. Consider patrol drones. They look nothing like something an individual can get into.
  - salawat 5y ago
    This was already addressed. Most of it would still have to be human accessible for maintenance/emergency purposes. If you're going to have to potentially service the thing underway, there is no point redoing the packaging. Besides which, an automated ship is about a trio of tugs, a computer replacement, and a buncha fuel away from anywhere.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Havoc 5y ago

For those interested in this sort of stuff have a look at YouTube channel rctestflight - very cool diy projects. Less ML and more solar powered waypoints but still found it insightful on the unique challenge water provides

yobbo 5y ago

Railways outcompeted canals for shipping, and then road trucks outcompeted railways. Controlling the boat near the dock is probably more difficult than cars or air planes since swells/waves/winds can move the boat relative to the dock. The robot needs to read the water and wind to protect the boat from collisions. As taxis, docking/taking on passengers is tricky since it needs to handle situations when people cling onto rails and risk getting stuck between the boat and the dock.

lbriner 5y ago
There are already gps-based systems that can do this on large ships but they are designed for open-water and can keep the boat surprisingly stable even in high winds as long as the ship has thrusters. You are right though, being by the dock is harder although at this point, you are likely to have some kind of personnel to help tether the boat to the quay.
Gwypaas 5y ago
All depends on how far you go with your maneuvering capabilities, which is simply related to costs. Dynamic positioning [0] has existed for a long while and has now moved down even to small dual engined boats [1], on the other hand it requires much more tech and sideways and rotational thrust capabilities than what regular cargo vessels have. A single prop with a bow thruster, or especially without, can't move freely in the 2D space which makes it much more complicated because you have to move towards the dock with the correct angle depending on wind, current and what not. Then time your maneuvers while taking the environment and for example prop walk [2] and other effects into consideration. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_positioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_positioning [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=491RkaOYfr4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=491RkaOYfr4 Volvo Penta Assisted Docking [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propeller_walk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propeller_walk
- yobbo 5y ago
  But the space is not 2D unless it's a small calm canal. Waves/swells/wakes can make the difference in vertical position of the bow relative to the stern change by meters (or whatever depending on length) but it can be significant relative to human size. In some situations it might be impossible to take on/let off passengers, so the boat would need to plan its motions taking this into account while otherwise not obstructing or causing danger. The goal then for the robot is not to position itself in 2D space with meter-level precision, the goal is to behave reliably and predictably in the harbour under chaotic circumstances, with sub-meter precision. That requires predicting movements and drift, taking wind into account. Since this is almost impossible, skippers learn to read the water/wind to understand what is appropriate for safety distances, speed, angles, etc. A road vehicle could just refuse to move if the environment becomes unrecognizable, but a boat keeps on moving, so the robot can not just "give up". It's true that thrusters increase the manoeuvrability.

WastingMyTime89 5y ago

This is an interesting article but it needs a big disclaimer. They are designing a self-driving boat without using sonars not radars due to their budget. It's fun but of little relevance to the real world. Most of their problems would be solved or at least heavily alleviated with access to the relevant sensors. Still, that's quite impressive for a college project built on a shoe string.

RappingBoomer 5y ago

hmmm..stuff still happens on inland waterways...bad stuff...sometimes the gales of november come early