5 ms·

efficiency

by micromacrofoot 5y ago

efficiency

tata71 5y ago
...that's a joke, right? Have you seen the average enterprise's stack?
- user-the-name 5y ago
  The worst enterprise stack you have ever seen is most likely at least a million times more efficient than bitcoin. That is not an exaggeration, and is more likely to be a severe understatement.
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    I can't claim numbers but even if you have the fastest and leanest information system, the rest of the economy might be problematic, the human layer is really bad. I stopped counting how many time we asked people to come back another day (more car use) because the old paper+digital system is not made for high throughput. Our servers are probably super fast.. but the apps are not useful, the system is not useful, thus lots of waste above.
    - user-the-name 5y ago
      I'm not sure I see what this has to do with what I said?
user-the-name 5y ago
Exactly: Bitcoin is using as much energy as the entire country of Sweden in order to do work that could be done by a single desktop PC from 2004.
- fastball 5y ago
  If the work Bitcoin is doing could be done by a single desktop PC from 2004 then... the work would be being done by a single desktop PC from 2004. But clearly it is not. Every time I see a thread on HN about crypto it makes me want to buy BTC or w/e because people are so unbelievably disingenuous on here that it probably still has a lot of steam left. The side that needs to be misleading to make their point is rarely the correct side to be on in my experience.
  - infecto 5y ago
    And sadly both sides are misleading.
  - user-the-name 5y ago
    Bitcoin processes, as a maximum dictated by technological choices, 2-3 transactions per second. Each transaction is around a few hundred bytes.
    - tenuousemphasis 5y ago
      Luckily Bitcoin has second layer systems being built on top of it, which allow it to leverage that 2-3 on-chain transactions per second to process thousands of millions more transactions off chain either through decentralized systems like Lightning or centralized custodial wallets.
      - user-the-name 5y ago
        Second layer solutions that do not actually work and that rely on solving unsolved problems in computer science to actually get working at scale.
        fastball 5y ago
        Lightning is being used right now. In what way does it not work?
agumonkey 5y ago
Honestly, even though I don't like the insane power usage of PoW cryptos, I don't like the waste of the normal economy either. There's so much waste ... but anyways that would require its own thread I guess.
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  Yeah there's waste everywhere, the amount of energy wasted by the over-reliance on cars in the US could probably power the entire planet. It's telling that the bitcoin defense is 99% whattaboutism – but have no fear readers, I scream into the void about those other things too.
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    I don't think it's only whattaboutism, it's mostly that crypto is becoming a meme complaint and even whattaboutism is thrown as reflex "what about you". ps: I'm trying to go from screamer to proactive these days. I was already frugal and dropped car use, I'm also thinking into starting clubs to make more walk/bike use, recycling/upcycling repair shops and the likes. Do you have similar ideas ?
    - micromacrofoot 5y ago
      I already do things like you mention... walk most places, reuse/repair when feasible, buying less packaged food, avoiding leisure flying (I used to travel often)... but individual impact is fairly minimal, so I've been putting more effort into supporting local political candidates who prioritize the climate. I also complain a lot at community meetings for new development in my immediate area (things like reducing parking in new buildings, including bike storage, EV charging, better public transit infrastructure)... I've found some of this stuff more fulfilling in that the impact tends to extend beyond what I'd be capable of doing alone... sometimes it's fruitless, but sometimes it works.
      - agumonkey 5y ago
        I'm trying to skip politics because I think it's fluff and too laggy. But I'm still at theory level. Ideally I'd find a few open warehouses to set up stuff. Tools, materials, gather smart / knowledgeable people, teach and viral spread the new habits. Hopefully it will cost next to nothing and happen faster than politically impeded initiatives.

efficiency

tata71 5y ago

...that's a joke, right? Have you seen the average enterprise's stack?

user-the-name 5y ago
The worst enterprise stack you have ever seen is most likely at least a million times more efficient than bitcoin. That is not an exaggeration, and is more likely to be a severe understatement.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  I can't claim numbers but even if you have the fastest and leanest information system, the rest of the economy might be problematic, the human layer is really bad. I stopped counting how many time we asked people to come back another day (more car use) because the old paper+digital system is not made for high throughput. Our servers are probably super fast.. but the apps are not useful, the system is not useful, thus lots of waste above.
  - user-the-name 5y ago
    I'm not sure I see what this has to do with what I said?

user-the-name 5y ago

Exactly: Bitcoin is using as much energy as the entire country of Sweden in order to do work that could be done by a single desktop PC from 2004.

fastball 5y ago
If the work Bitcoin is doing could be done by a single desktop PC from 2004 then... the work would be being done by a single desktop PC from 2004. But clearly it is not. Every time I see a thread on HN about crypto it makes me want to buy BTC or w/e because people are so unbelievably disingenuous on here that it probably still has a lot of steam left. The side that needs to be misleading to make their point is rarely the correct side to be on in my experience.
- infecto 5y ago
  And sadly both sides are misleading.
- user-the-name 5y ago
  Bitcoin processes, as a maximum dictated by technological choices, 2-3 transactions per second. Each transaction is around a few hundred bytes.
  - tenuousemphasis 5y ago
    Luckily Bitcoin has second layer systems being built on top of it, which allow it to leverage that 2-3 on-chain transactions per second to process thousands of millions more transactions off chain either through decentralized systems like Lightning or centralized custodial wallets.
    - user-the-name 5y ago
      Second layer solutions that do not actually work and that rely on solving unsolved problems in computer science to actually get working at scale.
      - fastball 5y ago
        Lightning is being used right now. In what way does it not work?

agumonkey 5y ago

Honestly, even though I don't like the insane power usage of PoW cryptos, I don't like the waste of the normal economy either. There's so much waste ... but anyways that would require its own thread I guess.

micromacrofoot 5y ago
Yeah there's waste everywhere, the amount of energy wasted by the over-reliance on cars in the US could probably power the entire planet. It's telling that the bitcoin defense is 99% whattaboutism – but have no fear readers, I scream into the void about those other things too.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  I don't think it's only whattaboutism, it's mostly that crypto is becoming a meme complaint and even whattaboutism is thrown as reflex "what about you". ps: I'm trying to go from screamer to proactive these days. I was already frugal and dropped car use, I'm also thinking into starting clubs to make more walk/bike use, recycling/upcycling repair shops and the likes. Do you have similar ideas ?
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    I already do things like you mention... walk most places, reuse/repair when feasible, buying less packaged food, avoiding leisure flying (I used to travel often)... but individual impact is fairly minimal, so I've been putting more effort into supporting local political candidates who prioritize the climate. I also complain a lot at community meetings for new development in my immediate area (things like reducing parking in new buildings, including bike storage, EV charging, better public transit infrastructure)... I've found some of this stuff more fulfilling in that the impact tends to extend beyond what I'd be capable of doing alone... sometimes it's fruitless, but sometimes it works.
    - agumonkey 5y ago
      I'm trying to skip politics because I think it's fluff and too laggy. But I'm still at theory level. Ideally I'd find a few open warehouses to set up stuff. Tools, materials, gather smart / knowledgeable people, teach and viral spread the new habits. Hopefully it will cost next to nothing and happen faster than politically impeded initiatives.