3 ms·

> EVs are superior in every single way except range and recharge time While I'm also in favor of EVs, I can see two other ways in which EVs are not superior: w

by cesarb 5y ago

> EVs are superior in every single way except range and recharge time While I'm also in favor of EVs, I can see two other ways in which EVs are not superior: weight (every article about EVs I read seems to mention that they're heavier than the corresponding ICE vehicles; on the other hand, the weight distribution seems to be yet another way in which most EVs are superior, with their low center of gravity), and price. The price seems to be the main barrier to EV adoption IMO, and is probably the reason they are so rare where I live (it's a major metropolitan area, and yet so far I have seen a non-rail EV only once).

api 5y ago
The weight issue is a mixed bag. It can improve handling in some conditions such as bad weather. Regenerative braking makes up for the energy cost fairly well. The cost is higher up front but lower overall. The comparison is also only fair if you compare similar cost/luxury classes of car. It's not fair to compare a Tesla Model S to a Honda Civic. Instead you'd compare a Model S cost to a mid-high end BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc. You'd compare a Honda Civic to a Nissan Leaf or a Chevy Bolt.
- giantg2 5y ago
  I'm still waiting for ones not based on "loaded" trims. Appearently the margins are too low to support budget vehicles. Look at trucks. I just want/need a basic work truck. They're about $25k. The lowest cost I've seen for an electric one is about double the cost. So I agree that you have to compare similar levels/trims, but many times the lower trims don't exist in the EV market.
mrtranscendence 5y ago
> The price seems to be the main barrier to EV adoption IMO, and is probably the reason they are so rare where I live (it's a major metropolitan area, and yet so far I have seen a non-rail EV only once). Interesting. I live near a (relatively!) affluent suburb of Cincinnati and I see at least one or two Teslas a week, depending on how much I'm driving. Our next door neighbors have an electric BMW (i3). And I'm not a car guy, so there could be a lot more than that I'm missing. Next car I buy will probably be a Tesla? Though it might be a few years. Of course, this doesn't disprove your point that price is an issue in adoption.
danans 5y ago
> The price seems to be the main barrier to EV adoption IMO, and is probably the reason they are so rare where I live (it's a major metropolitan area, and yet so far I have seen a non-rail EV only once). If you live on an area with electrified rail transit (which is where we ought to be going) but effectively no EVs that's surprising. Where is this? Today, the price of EVs has dropped to within comfortable reach of middle to upper middle class people, who are most of the people who buy new cars anyways (the lower middle and working class are much more likely to buy used). The bigger issue is cultural - with some areas (US coastal states and cosmopolitan cities, cosmopolitan parts of Europe, etc) being far further along in the cultural adoption of EVs. This is changing though. On a recent trip to Michigan I saw a significant rise in EVs (I'm more well off areas) vs the not distant past and I suspect this is because Detroit automakers finally have solid EV offerings. EVs, like smartphones, are now aspirational goods.
- Symbiote 5y ago
  > If you live on an area with electrified rail transit (which is where we ought to be going) but effectively no EVs that's surprising. Where is this? Railway lines in poorer or second-world (ex-USSR) countries were sometimes electrified since it ensured the most flexible and reliable fuel supply: you could run trains not only from oil, but also coal, gas, nuclear or hydroelectric power. Compared to diesel, the locomotives are cheaper, faster, quieter, and more powerful, and the operating costs for trains and track are lower. The ride quality is better, and it still felt "modern" to make the upgrade in the mid-20th century. Sort by percentage electrified length on [1] and you have Ethiopia, Armenia, Montenegro, Georgia, Bulgaria, India, Poland, Azerbaijan, North Korea, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Morocco, Ukraine, South Africa, North Macedonia etc all with a significant proportion of their rail networks electrified. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_transport_network_size https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_tran...
- cesarb 5y ago
  > If you live on an area with electrified rail transit (which is where we ought to be going) but effectively no EVs that's surprising. Where is this? Rio de Janeiro. Off the top of my head, we have Supervia (commuter rail, overhead catenary), Metrô Rio (subway, third rail), Corcovado train (touristic train, AC overhead catenary), Santa Teresa tram (tram, overhead catenary), and VLT Rio (tram, APS third rail). I know there are some EVs (I've seen it in the news a couple of years ago, there were something like five EVs in the whole city), but I've only seen one personally once (I believe it was a BMW i3). The bigger issue here is IMO still price - and all EVs are AFAIK imported, which makes them even more expensive.
VintageCool 5y ago
Battery prices have dropped 89% since 2010. BloombergNEF has predicted that, with battery costs continuing to decline, EVs will be less expensive than ICE cars by 2027. UBS predicts 2024. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/may/09/electric-cars-will-be-cheaper-to-produce-than-fossil-fuel-vehicles-by-2027 https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/may/09/electric-ca...

by cesarb 5y ago

api 5y ago

The weight issue is a mixed bag. It can improve handling in some conditions such as bad weather. Regenerative braking makes up for the energy cost fairly well. The cost is higher up front but lower overall. The comparison is also only fair if you compare similar cost/luxury classes of car. It's not fair to compare a Tesla Model S to a Honda Civic. Instead you'd compare a Model S cost to a mid-high end BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc. You'd compare a Honda Civic to a Nissan Leaf or a Chevy Bolt.

giantg2 5y ago
I'm still waiting for ones not based on "loaded" trims. Appearently the margins are too low to support budget vehicles. Look at trucks. I just want/need a basic work truck. They're about $25k. The lowest cost I've seen for an electric one is about double the cost. So I agree that you have to compare similar levels/trims, but many times the lower trims don't exist in the EV market.

mrtranscendence 5y ago

> The price seems to be the main barrier to EV adoption IMO, and is probably the reason they are so rare where I live (it's a major metropolitan area, and yet so far I have seen a non-rail EV only once). Interesting. I live near a (relatively!) affluent suburb of Cincinnati and I see at least one or two Teslas a week, depending on how much I'm driving. Our next door neighbors have an electric BMW (i3). And I'm not a car guy, so there could be a lot more than that I'm missing. Next car I buy will probably be a Tesla? Though it might be a few years. Of course, this doesn't disprove your point that price is an issue in adoption.

danans 5y ago

> The price seems to be the main barrier to EV adoption IMO, and is probably the reason they are so rare where I live (it's a major metropolitan area, and yet so far I have seen a non-rail EV only once). If you live on an area with electrified rail transit (which is where we ought to be going) but effectively no EVs that's surprising. Where is this? Today, the price of EVs has dropped to within comfortable reach of middle to upper middle class people, who are most of the people who buy new cars anyways (the lower middle and working class are much more likely to buy used). The bigger issue is cultural - with some areas (US coastal states and cosmopolitan cities, cosmopolitan parts of Europe, etc) being far further along in the cultural adoption of EVs. This is changing though. On a recent trip to Michigan I saw a significant rise in EVs (I'm more well off areas) vs the not distant past and I suspect this is because Detroit automakers finally have solid EV offerings. EVs, like smartphones, are now aspirational goods.

Symbiote 5y ago
> If you live on an area with electrified rail transit (which is where we ought to be going) but effectively no EVs that's surprising. Where is this? Railway lines in poorer or second-world (ex-USSR) countries were sometimes electrified since it ensured the most flexible and reliable fuel supply: you could run trains not only from oil, but also coal, gas, nuclear or hydroelectric power. Compared to diesel, the locomotives are cheaper, faster, quieter, and more powerful, and the operating costs for trains and track are lower. The ride quality is better, and it still felt "modern" to make the upgrade in the mid-20th century. Sort by percentage electrified length on [1] and you have Ethiopia, Armenia, Montenegro, Georgia, Bulgaria, India, Poland, Azerbaijan, North Korea, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Morocco, Ukraine, South Africa, North Macedonia etc all with a significant proportion of their rail networks electrified. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_transport_network_size https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_tran...
cesarb 5y ago
> If you live on an area with electrified rail transit (which is where we ought to be going) but effectively no EVs that's surprising. Where is this? Rio de Janeiro. Off the top of my head, we have Supervia (commuter rail, overhead catenary), Metrô Rio (subway, third rail), Corcovado train (touristic train, AC overhead catenary), Santa Teresa tram (tram, overhead catenary), and VLT Rio (tram, APS third rail). I know there are some EVs (I've seen it in the news a couple of years ago, there were something like five EVs in the whole city), but I've only seen one personally once (I believe it was a BMW i3). The bigger issue here is IMO still price - and all EVs are AFAIK imported, which makes them even more expensive.

VintageCool 5y ago

Battery prices have dropped 89% since 2010. BloombergNEF has predicted that, with battery costs continuing to decline, EVs will be less expensive than ICE cars by 2027. UBS predicts 2024. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/may/09/electric-cars-will-be-cheaper-to-produce-than-fossil-fuel-vehicles-by-2027 https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/may/09/electric-ca...