7 ms·

Indian Supreme Court orders inquiry into state’s use of Pegasus spyware

181 points by nigerian1981 5y ago

14 5y ago
“The state cannot get a free pass every time by raising national security concerns. No omnibus prohibition can be called against judicial review,” the judges said. What an interesting concept.
- 2Gkashmiri 5y ago
  India and pakistan played cricket world cup in dubai a few days ago. india lost.Kashmiris "cheered" for pakistan and for that they were treated with anti-terrorism charges and "sedition" against them on top of being beaten to a pulp in many cases. this is still a developing news. https://kashmirlife.net/engineering-college-suspends-3-kashmiri-students-for-allegedly-celebrating-pakistans-win-in-t20-match-278469/ https://kashmirlife.net/engineering-college-suspends-3-kashm... https://thekashmirwalla.com/six-detained-in-samba-for-raising-objectionable-slogans-after-ind-pak-match/ https://thekashmirwalla.com/six-detained-in-samba-for-raisin... https://thekashmirwalla.com/ind-pak-match-kashmir-police-books-students-under-uapa-for-celebrating/ https://thekashmirwalla.com/ind-pak-match-kashmir-police-boo... https://thekashmirwalla.com/were-beaten-up-kashmiri-students-in-punjab-after-ind-pak-match/ https://thekashmirwalla.com/were-beaten-up-kashmiri-students... here is a guy who is indias union home minister and he says in his own words “But if anyone standing on Indian soil shouts Pakistan zindabad, then no matter from which religion he belongs, the government will not accept that,” https://thekashmirwalla.com/rajnath-refers-to-masrat-alams-arrest-says-no-one-will-be-allowed-to-raise-pro-pakistan-slogans/ https://thekashmirwalla.com/rajnath-refers-to-masrat-alams-a...
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    Please don't do this.
    - 2Gkashmiri 5y ago
      i did what? i posted tweets of what is going on RIGHT now in my town that is related to tech and internet and governments. what did i do?
      - yorwba 5y ago
        You replied to a post that was not originally about what is going on right now in your town to talk about what is going on right now in your town. I understand that you really want to talk about it, but the proper way to do that would be to make a top-level submission about what is going on in your town right now.
        rajup 5y ago
        Not just unrelated but also unsubstantiated to score cheap internet points. Keep that to Reddit please.
      - NikolaNovak 5y ago
        I'm late to the game and not the downvoter, but I assume it's because you picked a relatively random, only vaguely related post to hang your comment off. It may or may not get more traction or interest, but is likely to at least get better reaction, if you make it a top level comment or its own submission. Where/as it is, it just feels random and almost bot-spammy. My 100 Croatian Lipa, for whatever it may be worth :)
2Gkashmiri 5y ago
meh. i wrote about this just yesterday. i am more concerned about being forced on gunpoint to hand over my phone and with that, i am not sure what was installed. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29003645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29003645 and the link in question. https://thekashmirwalla.com/not-pegasus-kashmiris-are-worried-about-next-checkpoint/ https://thekashmirwalla.com/not-pegasus-kashmiris-are-worrie...
bantxo 5y ago
They have appointed academics to look into it. So I am imagining an Indian Jack Ryan walks into their CIA and hijinks unfold.
gigglesupstairs 5y ago
Relevant stuff from the article: “India’s supreme court has ordered an inquiry by an independent committee into the question of whether the government used Pegasus surveillance software for illegal spying. The committee will comprise three cybersecurity experts and its work will be overseen by a retired supreme court judge. It will submit its report in two months. In announcing their decision, the judges criticised the government’s refusal to divulge, on the grounds of national security, any details of what the software was used for and why. They said Delhi had offered “only a vague … denial of allegations”. NSO has said its hacking software is only meant to be used by government clients to conduct legitimate investigations into serious crime. The Indian government has said very little on the scandal, largely confining itself to accusing those making the allegations of trying to discredit the country and malign Indian democracy with their “anti-India agenda. During earlier hearings, the government had offered to form its own panel of experts but this was rejected on Wednesday by the judges, who began the hearing by noting the “Orwellian concerns” about the misuse of technology.”
- saimiam 5y ago
  Current Indian resident here. This is the NDA government’s default response to any and all questioning - that the questioner is out to malign india. The ploy is obvious and transparent but seems to be working. I just wish we had a viable opposition party/alliance whom we could send to office.
  - maccolgan 5y ago
    It's not really a NDA government default response, it is also the de facto default response for any alleged government mishap. It straight up dates back to the Emergency days.
    - CtznIndn 5y ago
      No. It's more prominent and widespread under the current government. Multiple governments post Emergency did hold onto Parlimentary and democratic traditions and attempted to provide answers and held themselves accountable during such mishaps. Its disingenuous to mark ANY current mishap by present gov to "Emergency days".
punk_ihaq 5y ago
Earlier this year, the Supreme Court formed a committee [1] to listen to the grievances of farmers relating to three farm laws introduced in 2020. That committee was ordered to submit their report in two months. However, it's been nine months now and that committee report [2] has neither been made public nor have the judges considered it in open court. Hopefully, this committee avoids the same fate. [1] https://main.sci.gov.in/supremecourt/2020/21097/21097_2020_31_19_25372_Order_12-Jan-2021.pdf https://main.sci.gov.in/supremecourt/2020/21097/21097_2020_3... [2] https://indianexpress.com/article/india/release-our-report-it-addresses-farmer-issue-supreme-court-panel-member-to-cji-7495367/ https://indianexpress.com/article/india/release-our-report-i...
sinyug 5y ago
> The judges said indiscriminate spying could not be allowed and highlighted the “chilling” effect it could have on freedom of speech and freedom of the press. I don't know if this is what the judges said or if it is the Guardian's spin on what they said. Either way, the Indian constitution has no separate guarantee for "freedom of the press."[1] Theoretically, the press has as much (or as little) freedom as the common man. Practically, the ability to openly blackmail all and sundry means they can say what they want without repercussions. Further, Article 19(2) severely restricts any such right to "freedom of expression" for a variety of reasons, including national security: > Nothing in sub clause (a) of clause (1) shall affect the operation of any existing law, or prevent the State from making any law, in so far as such law imposes reasonable restrictions on the exercise of the right conferred by the said sub clause in the interests of the sovereignty and integrity of India, the security of the State, friendly relations with foreign States, public order, decency or morality or in relation to contempt of court, defamation or incitement to an offence In a twist of irony, Jawaharlal Nehru, former prime minister and the great-grandfather of the Rahul Gandhi mentioned in the Guardian article is responsible for this curtailment of rights. He could not run his socialist regime in peace if there was absolute freedom of speech and expression. I am sure there is some law somewhere which allows the Indian government to spy on its citizens. After all, there are hundreds of British-era laws still on the books. The only question is whether such spying is "reasonable." There, I would prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to elected representatives. I am not in favor of handing over veto power over executive decisions to judges who are not only unelected, but probably unique in any democratic country to have reserved the power to select their own replacements. Imagine the US Senate twiddling its thumbs while US Supreme Court judges selected not only their own successors, but also every single judge in the federal judiciary. [1] Article 19(1) (https://indiankanoon.org/doc/1218090/ https://indiankanoon.org/doc/1218090/)
- gigglesupstairs 5y ago
  Hard to give benefit of doubt to elected representatives who wanted to form an investigative committee by themselves to investigate whether they themselves deployed Pegasus and spied on country’s citizens. “Yeah, right.”, that’s what SC effectively said to them here.
naruvimama 5y ago
The Indian government is democratically elected, the supreme court is a closed club. The Indian government investigates citizens with shady international activities. The (undemocratic) court wants access to state secrets. Not happening.
- ridiculous_leke 5y ago
  That's rather tragic. The judiciary can be reigned in one way or the other by the legislature. Ideally, the country should have a strong executive (like the POTUS) who is accountable to the people instead of the legislature.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    Don't know why you were downvoted. That is how separation of powers usually work. That judges aren't also elected is sometimes a problem, even if they are bound by law. Different countries have different approaches here, the US has its juries, which is an unusual approach compared to other democracies.
- dddnzzz334 5y ago
  The BJP government was investigating its political enemies with the intent of subverting democracy and getting absolute and authoritarian control over India. The Judiciary is protecting the constitution and its principles. The BJP government openly supports terrorists [1][2] and tries to defame the principles on which the country is based on. >The Indian government is democratically elected The BJP government is trying to destroy those very democratic principles. Spying on citizens and journalists and supporting terrorism are just few of the examples. The NSDAP was also democratically elected in 1933. [3] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca_Masjid_blast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca_Masjid_blast [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29_September_2008_western_India_bombings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29_September_2008_western_Indi... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_elec...
  - naruvimama 5y ago
naruvimama 5y ago
Chanakya niti - spying is more important than the army. The spy can even stop a war.
known 5y ago
Sometimes a divided country is better than a hopeless one https://twitter.com/0x101/status/1317685559414972418 https://twitter.com/0x101/status/1317685559414972418

181 points by nigerian1981 5y ago

14 5y ago

“The state cannot get a free pass every time by raising national security concerns. No omnibus prohibition can be called against judicial review,” the judges said. What an interesting concept.

2Gkashmiri 5y ago
India and pakistan played cricket world cup in dubai a few days ago. india lost.Kashmiris "cheered" for pakistan and for that they were treated with anti-terrorism charges and "sedition" against them on top of being beaten to a pulp in many cases. this is still a developing news. https://kashmirlife.net/engineering-college-suspends-3-kashmiri-students-for-allegedly-celebrating-pakistans-win-in-t20-match-278469/ https://kashmirlife.net/engineering-college-suspends-3-kashm... https://thekashmirwalla.com/six-detained-in-samba-for-raising-objectionable-slogans-after-ind-pak-match/ https://thekashmirwalla.com/six-detained-in-samba-for-raisin... https://thekashmirwalla.com/ind-pak-match-kashmir-police-books-students-under-uapa-for-celebrating/ https://thekashmirwalla.com/ind-pak-match-kashmir-police-boo... https://thekashmirwalla.com/were-beaten-up-kashmiri-students-in-punjab-after-ind-pak-match/ https://thekashmirwalla.com/were-beaten-up-kashmiri-students... here is a guy who is indias union home minister and he says in his own words “But if anyone standing on Indian soil shouts Pakistan zindabad, then no matter from which religion he belongs, the government will not accept that,” https://thekashmirwalla.com/rajnath-refers-to-masrat-alams-arrest-says-no-one-will-be-allowed-to-raise-pro-pakistan-slogans/ https://thekashmirwalla.com/rajnath-refers-to-masrat-alams-a...
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  Please don't do this.
  - 2Gkashmiri 5y ago
    i did what? i posted tweets of what is going on RIGHT now in my town that is related to tech and internet and governments. what did i do?
    - yorwba 5y ago
      You replied to a post that was not originally about what is going on right now in your town to talk about what is going on right now in your town. I understand that you really want to talk about it, but the proper way to do that would be to make a top-level submission about what is going on in your town right now.
      - rajup 5y ago
        Not just unrelated but also unsubstantiated to score cheap internet points. Keep that to Reddit please.
    - NikolaNovak 5y ago
      I'm late to the game and not the downvoter, but I assume it's because you picked a relatively random, only vaguely related post to hang your comment off. It may or may not get more traction or interest, but is likely to at least get better reaction, if you make it a top level comment or its own submission. Where/as it is, it just feels random and almost bot-spammy. My 100 Croatian Lipa, for whatever it may be worth :)

2Gkashmiri 5y ago

meh. i wrote about this just yesterday. i am more concerned about being forced on gunpoint to hand over my phone and with that, i am not sure what was installed. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29003645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29003645 and the link in question. https://thekashmirwalla.com/not-pegasus-kashmiris-are-worried-about-next-checkpoint/ https://thekashmirwalla.com/not-pegasus-kashmiris-are-worrie...

bantxo 5y ago

They have appointed academics to look into it. So I am imagining an Indian Jack Ryan walks into their CIA and hijinks unfold.

gigglesupstairs 5y ago

Relevant stuff from the article: “India’s supreme court has ordered an inquiry by an independent committee into the question of whether the government used Pegasus surveillance software for illegal spying. The committee will comprise three cybersecurity experts and its work will be overseen by a retired supreme court judge. It will submit its report in two months. In announcing their decision, the judges criticised the government’s refusal to divulge, on the grounds of national security, any details of what the software was used for and why. They said Delhi had offered “only a vague … denial of allegations”. NSO has said its hacking software is only meant to be used by government clients to conduct legitimate investigations into serious crime. The Indian government has said very little on the scandal, largely confining itself to accusing those making the allegations of trying to discredit the country and malign Indian democracy with their “anti-India agenda. During earlier hearings, the government had offered to form its own panel of experts but this was rejected on Wednesday by the judges, who began the hearing by noting the “Orwellian concerns” about the misuse of technology.”

saimiam 5y ago
Current Indian resident here. This is the NDA government’s default response to any and all questioning - that the questioner is out to malign india. The ploy is obvious and transparent but seems to be working. I just wish we had a viable opposition party/alliance whom we could send to office.
- maccolgan 5y ago
  It's not really a NDA government default response, it is also the de facto default response for any alleged government mishap. It straight up dates back to the Emergency days.
  - CtznIndn 5y ago
    No. It's more prominent and widespread under the current government. Multiple governments post Emergency did hold onto Parlimentary and democratic traditions and attempted to provide answers and held themselves accountable during such mishaps. Its disingenuous to mark ANY current mishap by present gov to "Emergency days".

punk_ihaq 5y ago

Earlier this year, the Supreme Court formed a committee [1] to listen to the grievances of farmers relating to three farm laws introduced in 2020. That committee was ordered to submit their report in two months. However, it's been nine months now and that committee report [2] has neither been made public nor have the judges considered it in open court. Hopefully, this committee avoids the same fate. [1] https://main.sci.gov.in/supremecourt/2020/21097/21097_2020_31_19_25372_Order_12-Jan-2021.pdf https://main.sci.gov.in/supremecourt/2020/21097/21097_2020_3... [2] https://indianexpress.com/article/india/release-our-report-it-addresses-farmer-issue-supreme-court-panel-member-to-cji-7495367/ https://indianexpress.com/article/india/release-our-report-i...

sinyug 5y ago

> The judges said indiscriminate spying could not be allowed and highlighted the “chilling” effect it could have on freedom of speech and freedom of the press. I don't know if this is what the judges said or if it is the Guardian's spin on what they said. Either way, the Indian constitution has no separate guarantee for "freedom of the press."[1] Theoretically, the press has as much (or as little) freedom as the common man. Practically, the ability to openly blackmail all and sundry means they can say what they want without repercussions. Further, Article 19(2) severely restricts any such right to "freedom of expression" for a variety of reasons, including national security: > Nothing in sub clause (a) of clause (1) shall affect the operation of any existing law, or prevent the State from making any law, in so far as such law imposes reasonable restrictions on the exercise of the right conferred by the said sub clause in the interests of the sovereignty and integrity of India, the security of the State, friendly relations with foreign States, public order, decency or morality or in relation to contempt of court, defamation or incitement to an offence In a twist of irony, Jawaharlal Nehru, former prime minister and the great-grandfather of the Rahul Gandhi mentioned in the Guardian article is responsible for this curtailment of rights. He could not run his socialist regime in peace if there was absolute freedom of speech and expression. I am sure there is some law somewhere which allows the Indian government to spy on its citizens. After all, there are hundreds of British-era laws still on the books. The only question is whether such spying is "reasonable." There, I would prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to elected representatives. I am not in favor of handing over veto power over executive decisions to judges who are not only unelected, but probably unique in any democratic country to have reserved the power to select their own replacements. Imagine the US Senate twiddling its thumbs while US Supreme Court judges selected not only their own successors, but also every single judge in the federal judiciary. [1] Article 19(1) (https://indiankanoon.org/doc/1218090/ https://indiankanoon.org/doc/1218090/)

gigglesupstairs 5y ago
Hard to give benefit of doubt to elected representatives who wanted to form an investigative committee by themselves to investigate whether they themselves deployed Pegasus and spied on country’s citizens. “Yeah, right.”, that’s what SC effectively said to them here.

naruvimama 5y ago

The Indian government is democratically elected, the supreme court is a closed club. The Indian government investigates citizens with shady international activities. The (undemocratic) court wants access to state secrets. Not happening.

ridiculous_leke 5y ago
That's rather tragic. The judiciary can be reigned in one way or the other by the legislature. Ideally, the country should have a strong executive (like the POTUS) who is accountable to the people instead of the legislature.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Don't know why you were downvoted. That is how separation of powers usually work. That judges aren't also elected is sometimes a problem, even if they are bound by law. Different countries have different approaches here, the US has its juries, which is an unusual approach compared to other democracies.
dddnzzz334 5y ago
The BJP government was investigating its political enemies with the intent of subverting democracy and getting absolute and authoritarian control over India. The Judiciary is protecting the constitution and its principles. The BJP government openly supports terrorists [1][2] and tries to defame the principles on which the country is based on. >The Indian government is democratically elected The BJP government is trying to destroy those very democratic principles. Spying on citizens and journalists and supporting terrorism are just few of the examples. The NSDAP was also democratically elected in 1933. [3] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca_Masjid_blast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca_Masjid_blast [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29_September_2008_western_India_bombings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29_September_2008_western_Indi... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_elec...
- naruvimama 5y ago

naruvimama 5y ago

Chanakya niti - spying is more important than the army. The spy can even stop a war.

known 5y ago

Sometimes a divided country is better than a hopeless one https://twitter.com/0x101/status/1317685559414972418 https://twitter.com/0x101/status/1317685559414972418