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IMO that boils down to "who owns what you use". And "there is no free lunch". Applies both to services and devices.

by mro_name 5y ago

mulmen 5y ago
I paid Apple for my iPhone and for storage. I see no reason they should go out of their way to spy on me.
- connordoner 5y ago
  While the indiscriminate collection of data is another issue entirely, I struggle to see that I — or, indeed, most of us — are important enough to be focused on in particular, out of the many billions who’s data is inevitably collected by various three-letter agencies.
  - krageon 5y ago
    > important enough Ah, so because you are not inconvenienced right now it's not an issue. That's not a good way to approach a systemic injustice, except if you look at other people's suffering and can still sleep fine.
  - mulmen 5y ago
    The problem with this line of thinking is that it presupposes the surveillance is justified. It isn't. The practical objection is that you have no recourse if you are focused on. So it's a numbers game. One that we shouldn't be playing. You say most of us. How many innocent lives are you willing to destroy in the quest to vanquish an imaginary foe?
    - connordoner 5y ago
      I hear you, loud and clear. I don’t know where the balance lies, truth be told, because I can see both sides to the argument.
      - krageon 5y ago
        > I can see both sides There is the side that says "we should know everything, because we own you" and the side that says "I prefer not to be owned". There is no good-faith way to see both sides of that, that is just avoiding a hard question because it is convenient.
- mro_name 5y ago
  that's the misconception – the iPhone isn't a good but a service receiver. Think iCloud, Facetime, iMessage, Push, FindMyPhone etc. So Apple won't leave after you once have the phone – they remain with you. And spying isn't what Apple calls it. Smart services always have a tendency to be encroaching. On one side Apple wants to read your lips to know your wishes in advance but on the other the authorities demand access to that knowledge.
krageon 5y ago
The free lunch argument is not satisfactory because no matter the price of what you buy, the lunch is never paid for.

IMO that boils down to "who owns what you use". And "there is no free lunch". Applies both to services and devices.

mulmen 5y ago

I paid Apple for my iPhone and for storage. I see no reason they should go out of their way to spy on me.

connordoner 5y ago
While the indiscriminate collection of data is another issue entirely, I struggle to see that I — or, indeed, most of us — are important enough to be focused on in particular, out of the many billions who’s data is inevitably collected by various three-letter agencies.
- krageon 5y ago
  > important enough Ah, so because you are not inconvenienced right now it's not an issue. That's not a good way to approach a systemic injustice, except if you look at other people's suffering and can still sleep fine.
- mulmen 5y ago
  The problem with this line of thinking is that it presupposes the surveillance is justified. It isn't. The practical objection is that you have no recourse if you are focused on. So it's a numbers game. One that we shouldn't be playing. You say most of us. How many innocent lives are you willing to destroy in the quest to vanquish an imaginary foe?
  - connordoner 5y ago
    I hear you, loud and clear. I don’t know where the balance lies, truth be told, because I can see both sides to the argument.
    - krageon 5y ago
      > I can see both sides There is the side that says "we should know everything, because we own you" and the side that says "I prefer not to be owned". There is no good-faith way to see both sides of that, that is just avoiding a hard question because it is convenient.
mro_name 5y ago
that's the misconception – the iPhone isn't a good but a service receiver. Think iCloud, Facetime, iMessage, Push, FindMyPhone etc. So Apple won't leave after you once have the phone – they remain with you. And spying isn't what Apple calls it. Smart services always have a tendency to be encroaching. On one side Apple wants to read your lips to know your wishes in advance but on the other the authorities demand access to that knowledge.

krageon 5y ago

The free lunch argument is not satisfactory because no matter the price of what you buy, the lunch is never paid for.