6 ms·

> Would you prefer to support some weird arbitrary nameless closed source extensions, or have a multicore Python? There's nothing wrong with staying on an olde

> Would you prefer to support some weird arbitrary nameless closed source extensions, or have a multicore Python? There's nothing wrong with staying on an older LTS version of Python. Let the people with the nameless closed-source stuff stick with that. The beauty of open source is that they can fork the older, GIL-ful version of Python and maintain it, if they like. Multicore would be a tremendous boon to the language.

ldng 5y ago
The problem is those nameless usually want the cake and eat it too but will complain rudely when their toys breaks.
rbanffy 5y ago
> Let the people with the nameless closed-source stuff stick with that. Let's hope it becomes a teachable moment.
- vlovich123 5y ago
  Is there some particular reason to believe the Python team is even able to get good insight into regressions in the long tail of python packages? Also it's important to remember that a lot of of material contributions to the community (either to the foundation, via jobs, or even open-sourcing part of their internal stack) might be coming from closed source in some way. It's not wise to ignore that & I think the core team is rightfully cognizant of needing to balance that (balance - not tip to one extreme or the other).
  - rectang 5y ago
    Concurrency is impossible to prove sound without language-level guarantees. https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/2006/EECS-2006-1.pdf https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/2006/EECS-2006-... I'm astounded that a change which will release untold heisenbugs into the wild is being considered. It changes my view of Python. In terms of inducing subtle, silent breakage in existing code, it reminds me of this horrifying change from PHP 8: https://www.php.net/manual/en/migration80.incompatible.php#migration80.incompatible.core.string-number-comparision https://www.php.net/manual/en/migration80.incompatible.php#m...
    - da39a3ee 5y ago
      However it, err, looks like some things did need fixing in PHP v7.
    - drothlis 5y ago
      > The GIL will still be optionally available as an interpreter startup-time option Sounds like they’re going to make it opt-in (or opt-outable) if they do merge it.
    - mijoharas 5y ago
      > it reminds me of this horrifying change from PHP 8 The only thing horrifying to me is that that behaviour was there in the first place! I would be 100% behind those fixes, I assume from your response that you would not do them in the sake of backwards compatibility. What would be your solution? To always have these idiosyncrasies in the language, or did you have a problem with how the fixes were implemented or rolled out?
    - rbanffy 5y ago
      > Concurrency is impossible to prove sound without language-level guarantees. Not sure I understand that. The proposal is not to simply get rid of the GIL, but to have a two-tier mechanism that ensures correctness with all the C source that uses the macros it should use and doesn’t mess with refcounts behind Python’s back (doing sketchy stuff usually ends up in pain)
    - AlphaSite 5y ago
      Isn’t this an option change. this Gil still exists in theory iirc.
oefrha 5y ago
> an older LTS version of Python There was an older LTS version of Python called Python 2.7. Last I checked people hated the transition and were still bitching about it in 2021.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  I’m one of them (though once I had to pay the tax, I tried to forget about it). My chief complaint was that there was a decent syntactic change for 0 benefit for me, and many Python users. F-strings, swapping str<->unicode, print function. All white superficial stuff, at least as far as my domain is concerned (data science). It felt like “hey other languages are getting breaking changes, we should too”. This is completely different. Single core speeds have not increased for years (decades?), any language with performance vaguely on the list must have an answer to multicore computation. I’d put up with a fair amount of pain for this. Perhaps, dunno, web devs would complain that this change doesn’t help them, and is only a pain. That’s what I disliked in 2->3. I was told that I’m a dinosaur and should put up and shut up. Which eventually I did. But this is my answer to the naysayers this time. Of course this might still fail in technical grounds but I’m hopeful, sounds solid.
- deleted 5y ago
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ldng 5y ago

The problem is those nameless usually want the cake and eat it too but will complain rudely when their toys breaks.

rbanffy 5y ago

> Let the people with the nameless closed-source stuff stick with that. Let's hope it becomes a teachable moment.

vlovich123 5y ago
Is there some particular reason to believe the Python team is even able to get good insight into regressions in the long tail of python packages? Also it's important to remember that a lot of of material contributions to the community (either to the foundation, via jobs, or even open-sourcing part of their internal stack) might be coming from closed source in some way. It's not wise to ignore that & I think the core team is rightfully cognizant of needing to balance that (balance - not tip to one extreme or the other).
- rectang 5y ago
  Concurrency is impossible to prove sound without language-level guarantees. https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/2006/EECS-2006-1.pdf https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/2006/EECS-2006-... I'm astounded that a change which will release untold heisenbugs into the wild is being considered. It changes my view of Python. In terms of inducing subtle, silent breakage in existing code, it reminds me of this horrifying change from PHP 8: https://www.php.net/manual/en/migration80.incompatible.php#migration80.incompatible.core.string-number-comparision https://www.php.net/manual/en/migration80.incompatible.php#m...
  - da39a3ee 5y ago
    However it, err, looks like some things did need fixing in PHP v7.
  - drothlis 5y ago
    > The GIL will still be optionally available as an interpreter startup-time option Sounds like they’re going to make it opt-in (or opt-outable) if they do merge it.
  - mijoharas 5y ago
    > it reminds me of this horrifying change from PHP 8 The only thing horrifying to me is that that behaviour was there in the first place! I would be 100% behind those fixes, I assume from your response that you would not do them in the sake of backwards compatibility. What would be your solution? To always have these idiosyncrasies in the language, or did you have a problem with how the fixes were implemented or rolled out?
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    > Concurrency is impossible to prove sound without language-level guarantees. Not sure I understand that. The proposal is not to simply get rid of the GIL, but to have a two-tier mechanism that ensures correctness with all the C source that uses the macros it should use and doesn’t mess with refcounts behind Python’s back (doing sketchy stuff usually ends up in pain)
  - AlphaSite 5y ago
    Isn’t this an option change. this Gil still exists in theory iirc.

oefrha 5y ago

> an older LTS version of Python There was an older LTS version of Python called Python 2.7. Last I checked people hated the transition and were still bitching about it in 2021.

rich_sasha 5y ago
I’m one of them (though once I had to pay the tax, I tried to forget about it). My chief complaint was that there was a decent syntactic change for 0 benefit for me, and many Python users. F-strings, swapping str<->unicode, print function. All white superficial stuff, at least as far as my domain is concerned (data science). It felt like “hey other languages are getting breaking changes, we should too”. This is completely different. Single core speeds have not increased for years (decades?), any language with performance vaguely on the list must have an answer to multicore computation. I’d put up with a fair amount of pain for this. Perhaps, dunno, web devs would complain that this change doesn’t help them, and is only a pain. That’s what I disliked in 2->3. I was told that I’m a dinosaur and should put up and shut up. Which eventually I did. But this is my answer to the naysayers this time. Of course this might still fail in technical grounds but I’m hopeful, sounds solid.
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