9 ms·

FDA advisory panel recommends Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine be authorized for children

27 points by hprotagonist 5y ago

salemh 5y ago
Disgusting, unnecessary, and murderous but VERY profitable for the pharmaceutical companies. Children don't need these vaccines. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01897-w https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01897-w >the studies found that COVID-19 caused 25 deaths in that age group between March 2020 and February 2021. >About half of those deaths were in individuals with an underlying complex disability with high health-care needs, such as tube feeding or assistance with breathing. In the US, 340 children under 17 have died from Covid. Total. During the same period, 187 have died from the flu, and over 51,000 children have died from all causes: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#SexAndAge https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Se...
- concinds 5y ago
  I will say, requiring 12 year olds to have a vaccine passport to enter public places (as is the case in much of Western Europe) is as cyberpunk-dystopian as things get, given the hospitalization numbers. A clear result of lobbying.
  - trevcanhuman 5y ago
    Even having it for adults is quite dystopian to me! If the vaccine is voluntary then businesses should not force others to have it. Edit: I’d also add of course government entities or government-owned institutions such as schools! I’ve heard that some public high schools in California will require a vaccination card!, which, in my opinion, is quite extreme.
    - lghh 5y ago
      Businesses should not be forced to do business with someone they don't want to do business with.
      - trevcanhuman 5y ago
        Fair enough, but couldn’t a ban on people who do not have the vaccine be considered as discrimination ? Since when does an ice cream shop ask you if you already had your flu shot ?
        ceejayoz 5y ago
        Discrimination by itself is perfectly legal. I can refuse to do business with redheads, or vegans, or people whose name is Bob. Discrimination based on certain specific categories is illegal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group
        trevcanhuman 5y ago
        Wow, I did not know that. I honestly don't know how to make a counterargument to this.
        pfarrell 5y ago
        Covid-19 is not the flu.
        trevcanhuman 5y ago
        But won't herd immunity become a thing with covid-19 ?
        verdverm 5y ago
        It is also not measles or mumps, and arguably much closer to the flu than the aforementioned. Some vaccines confer life time immunity and others reduce severity.
    - ryanobjc 5y ago
      Every kid already has a vaccine card. This is one ore row on it. A lot of hyperbole for something that’s been here for the better part of a century.
      - trevcanhuman 5y ago
        Yes, but I'd consider it extreme for businesses and other entities who do not need that personal information ask for it, I also have some sort of vaccination record but I rarely take it out or show it to someone.
    - acdha 5y ago
      > I’ve heard that some public high schools in California will require a vaccination card!, which, in my opinion, is quite extreme. Do you have children? Public schools have had vaccination requirements going back to the middle of the 19th Century. If you live in California, starting before kindegarten students are required to be vaccinated against polio, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, varicella, Haemophilus influenzae, measles, mumps, and rubella. They also recommend Hep B and meningococcal vaccines but the latter are only required for college students. https://www.shotsforschool.org/k-12/ https://www.shotsforschool.org/k-12/ This is true in most of the civilized world because vaccines have changed those diseases from something my parents' generation knew as the reason why the neighbor kid died or was crippled for life to something you learn about in history class.
      - trevcanhuman 5y ago
        > Do you have children? Public schools have had vaccination requirements going back to the middle of the 19th Century. No, I’m a teenager. I didn’t know vaccination requirements were that strict/common. I vaguely remember being asked about it maybe in elementary school but right now I’m in high school and I wasn’t asked any of that to enter (for context, I go to a private high school in Mexico).
        acdha 5y ago
        This might be of interest: note that the first U.S. government vaccine mandate was in 1777, which George Washington required smallpox inoculation for the soldiers, and the first school mandate was in 1855: https://www.historyofvaccines.org/timeline/all https://www.historyofvaccines.org/timeline/all I would suspect that you would probably have heard about this in a public school and it's also possible that this was handled by your parents without you being aware of it. It's very routine here — my son would have no idea this had happened since his doctor's office sends the records directly to the school nurse.
        peteradio 5y ago
        Wouldn't the analog of George Washington intentionally exposing his soldiers to small pox be more similar to getting covid on purpose?
  - r00fus 5y ago
    Nothing in this article talks about a vax passport. We haven't even done that for adults, much less children.
    - packetlost 5y ago
      Who is we? The King County area in Washington USA is starting to enforce presenting proof of vaccination to enter businesses: https://kingcounty.gov/elected/executive/constantine/news/release/2021/September/16-proof-of-vaccination-negative-test.aspx https://kingcounty.gov/elected/executive/constantine/news/re...
      - ceejayoz 5y ago
        Missed the "or a negative test" bit?
        concinds 5y ago
        The whole "or a negative test" thing is clearly going away. It was added to make the pill easier to swallow at first; but governments (again, at least in Western Europe) seem to be getting a bit desperate to increase vaccination rates, and are making tests very very cost prohibitive (50€ per test, and you need a new test every 2-3 days), and are likely to remove that option altogether at some point. A pretty obvious slippery slope in hindsight: governments never let a crisis go to waste.
- strombofulous 5y ago
  I don't know anything about this, can someone provide context on why this post is getting so downvoted, the sources they are providing look very reliable
  - detaro 5y ago
    How do these sources support vaccination being "murderous"? Saying it's only a bit worse than the flu is also a bit odd in this context, given the CDC recommends flu vaccinations for "everyone ages six months and older"? "reliable sources" should also support the argument being made.
  - r00fus 5y ago
    Death is only one measure of difficulty. Long COVID is real and it affects kids too. It's estimated [1] that millions have symptoms that have lasted many months (1 out of 3 infected) [1] https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1003773 https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jo...
  - cwmma 5y ago
    because kids not dying of covid misses the point, they can still spread it, plus those kids that have complex underlying conditions due need the vaccine and this would allow them to get it.
  - standardUser 5y ago
    Calling this vaccine "murderous" should earn plenty of downvotes, given that it has killed precisely no one despite a few hundred millions doses going out so far.
    - xx511134bz 5y ago
      Deaths are being covered up, you're not looking very hard. https://vaccineimpact.com/2021/45-year-old-fbi-special-agent-dies-less-than-24-hours-after-receiving-the-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine/ https://vaccineimpact.com/2021/45-year-old-fbi-special-agent... go ahead and flag this you liars
- throwawayfear 5y ago
  It's not about public health. It's about control.
  - barbazoo 5y ago
    In what way?
    - choward 5y ago
      You must live somewhere without mandates.
      - version_five 5y ago
        To be fair, I think it's less about control than about naked populism- vaccine mandates, and many other covid measures are wildly popular. It's basically mob rule. Liberal democracy is supposed to have built in protections for this, but when they get ignored, all bets are off. Right wing populists ignoring liberal democratic norms was the big fear a few years ago, and now it has swung far to the left. There is some element of control as you say, but I think it's more in the "show you're a member of our religion" sense than in the government or corporate control sense. This is a war people are waging on themselves.
        throwawayfear 5y ago
        Who is in charge of our governments and corporations? If it's comprised of the people attempting to make it about their religious zeal on this subject, then I consider that no different than it being a government or corporation ploy for more power. Because at the end of the day, it's the biggest stakeholders in a corporation that will love the power to force people out of having bread if they don't comply with increasingly invasive protocols.
        beerandt 5y ago
        If that's the case, it's even worse than a power grab. What's the quote about abusive power done on behalf of the abused, and not ever having a reason to stop?
- choward 5y ago
  If this and not acknowledging natural immunity doesn't show people at this point it's not about saving lives and stopping the spread then I don't know what will.
  - throwawayfear 5y ago
    Fauci is dragging his feet because it's about power. The evidence is painting a very different picture from what power-hungry commentators on the internet or mass media are trying to say. If they admitted something about antibodies from past infection or the state of antibodies in the broader American population, they would have to admit that on their own terms they should no longer have any power or influence over the public anymore. Sources: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9 "Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime" https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article253987048.html https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article25398704... "More than 80% of Americans have coronavirus antibodies acquired through infection or vaccination, according to a new study of over 1.4 million blood donations across the U.S." https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-covid-prevents-delta-infection-better-than-pfizer-shot https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-... "Previous Covid Prevents Delta Infection Better Than Pfizer Shot" The picture that emerges is clear for anyone looking at just the evidence. Edited statement: Why is my comment flagged? I sourced the claims and am throwing down the gauntlet expecting a legitimate challenge on the contention. But instead, even though this comment got many upvotes for the time it was posted...it got flagged? We should really make flagging a public thing to higher-karma users so we can see who is being a dishonorable netizen here.
- glennpratt 5y ago
  By your numbers, which I haven't checked, COVID-19 killed more children than the flu, which we vaccinate for? Ignoring the fact that one reason we vaccinate is to reduce spread, like our kids grandparents and great-grandparents.
  - collias 5y ago
    The difference is the control aspect. As far as I know, you won't be labeled as a second class citizen for not getting a flu shot.
    - glennpratt 5y ago
      I don't know where you are coming from, but there are many contexts in the US that required a flu vaccine in the past. And of course other vaccines. The goal posts will move wherever it's convenient for antivax crowd.
      - rsj_hn 5y ago
        That's interesting -- can you cite an example of when there was a national US flu vaccine mandate? What about a local mandate? IIRC, there have not been federal or local government flu mandates although there were local government mandates for things like smallpox in school kids (but not for the entire population). For example, here is a 2009 policy position from OSHA saying that it does not mandate flu vaccines[1]: However, although OSHA does not specifically require employees to take the vaccines, an employer may do so. But if I missed an example of a historical flu mandate, I'd love to hear it. [1] https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/2009-11-09 https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/2009-...
        glennpratt 5y ago
        Did I mention OSHA? I gather you don't like the particular policy, but that wasn't my point and I didn't know what context GP was concerned about. Other people were talking about Europe. Also, for the OSHA rules, they allow for a testing.
- caethan 5y ago
  The risks of Covid to children is, as you say, extremely low. The risk of the Pfizer vaccine to children is even lower. Right now those "individuals with an underlying complex disability" are not allowed to get vaccinated because the vaccine has not been approved for young children, even with an emergency use authorization. I think the parents of children with disabilities that make Covid more potentially dangerous for them ought to be allowed to vaccinate their child. Do you disagree?
  - choward 5y ago
    I'm okay with approving it for kids but mandating is a whole different story.
    - caethan 5y ago
      I think we're at the point where public mandates are doing more harm than good. I am disappointed that there are so many people pushing back against simple approval of an effective vaccine because they are worried about an unnecessary mandate being imposed.
      - peteradio 5y ago
        Indeed. Even this panel discussed that they must keep in mind that what they are voting on is whether to release it for optional use not mandatory use. Unfortunately they have no bearing on whether the government bodies decide to mandate it.
- cwmma 5y ago
  kids tend not to die from covid, but they can spread it, this is in fact a point the article makes. The point of the vaccine for kids is it would primarily prevent spread of covid to other more vulnerable people, but it would also protect some kids who were vulnerable to do underlying conditions.
  - christkv 5y ago
    Unfortunately so does vaccinated people (some studies says it lower the transmission rate, others say they don't). The vaccines are not the firebreak that people think they are.
    - cwmma 5y ago
      while it's true that vaccinated people can transmit it, and it has been suggested that it doesn't lower transmission rate during the period where they are contagious, they prevent the vast majority of people from being contagious in the first place, meaning yes they are 100% the firebreak that people think they are, you are being willfully ignorant to think they aren't.
- dang 5y ago
  Please make your substantive points without flamebait and name-calling. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - corey_moncure 5y ago
    What name calling though? There is exactly one word in his post that even qualifies as an unsubstantiated value judgement: "disgusting". It's appeared in 12,263 comments. If Nature and CDC are flamebait, we're done man, we're just done.
    - dang 5y ago
      "Murderous" also counts, in this context. The comment would have been much better without the first sentence, which was obvious flamebait. We've already had enough vaccine flamewars and covid flamewars to last a lifetime.
barbazoo 5y ago
In the context of prevention of hospitalization, why is the article talking about "boys" and not children in general?
- standardUser 5y ago
  It certainly reads very oddly. But from the linked article, it seems risk of myocarditis is what researchers were looking at when they did that modeling... "In older boys and young men, the vaccine has been linked to myocarditis. It has occurred in somewhere around 1 in 10,000 boys and men between the ages of 16 and 19 who received a second dose, though estimates of the risk vary."
- caethan 5y ago
  Because the largest risk anyone has found with the Pfizer vaccine is of myocarditis in teenage boys.
- collias 5y ago
  Some studies suggest that the risk of myocarditis/pericarditis among vaccinated young boys is higher than their risk of hospitalization due to Covid. The fact that this is even a possibility, and the data on it is changing so rapidly, should give everyone pause and ask what's really going on. Is it for the public good, or is it for pharma profits? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/10/boys-more-at-risk-from-pfizer-jab-side-effect-than-covid-suggests-study https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/10/boys-more-at-r...
  - azinman2 5y ago
    That is at odds with previous studies, assumes you’re looking at a very short time horizon for getting Covid and negating beyond that entirely, and ignores that myocarditis is treatable as a side effect. Given there’s a pandemic going on that’s resulted in massive casualties, assuming this is only being done for pharma profits doesn’t pass Occam’s razor.
    - collias 5y ago
mStreamTeam 5y ago
Just a reminder that medical consent is your right. And you have the right to say no to any medical procedure
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- SjorsVG 5y ago
  Sure, but you are forbidden from entering lots of places without proof of vaccination or a recent certified test (not cheap).
- lghh 5y ago
  And you also have a right to distance yourself from someone based on their choices.
  - throwawayfear 5y ago
    Anyone wanting to do this doesn't need to know someone else's choices except by asking in private. Feel free to distance yourself from anyone not meeting your conditions. Whereas in general public, wear a mask and social distance. Imposing these "rights" onto the general public is Nanny State hall monitoring on steroids, enacted and enforced by people who...we no longer have any reason to trust. Why can't we trust them? Because their entire schpiel over the last year about getting to herd immunity and endemic covid has gone out the window as of late. They are dragging their feet on acknowledging reality. Here's sources explaining why: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9 "Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime" https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article253987048.html https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article25398704... "More than 80% of Americans have coronavirus antibodies acquired through infection or vaccination, according to a new study of over 1.4 million blood donations across the U.S." https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-covid-prevents-delta-infection-better-than-pfizer-shot https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-... "Previous Covid Prevents Delta Infection Better Than Pfizer Shot" The picture that emerges is clear. These "temporary" mandates no longer have a basis in reality.
LatteLazy 5y ago
If people do or don't want to get vaccinated, that's up to them. But with kids it's harder because parents expect a veto. Reddit is full of adults whose parents have gone nuts because they choose to get vaccinated. Imagine the same with under 18s. So good luck with that...
ed25519FUUU 5y ago
I'm firmly in the "wait and see" group with my kids for two reasons. The FDA says that the side effects in children are comparable with the "16 to 25 years" age group, which is the age group that has the highest incidents of myocarditis with both mRNA vaccines. The sample size was too small to detect myocarditis according to the FDA, so people who are eager to vaccinate their children can provide that data set pretty quickly. Also the “Long-term safety of COVID-19 vaccine in participants 5 to <12 years of age will be studied in 5 post-authorization safety studies.” Again, I'm choosing not allow my children to be a data point in that study.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
throwawayfear 5y ago
The mandates are not necessary anymore, certainly not in America or in Australia. The reason I say that is because the number of people with antibodies which prevent reinfection or most breakthrough cases, is now in major excess of what Fauci and other public servants have been saying would achieve endemic covid / herd immunity for the last year. Sources: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9 "Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime" https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article253987048.html https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article25398704... "More than 80% of Americans have coronavirus antibodies acquired through infection or vaccination, according to a new study of over 1.4 million blood donations across the U.S." https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-covid-prevents-delta-infection-better-than-pfizer-shot https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-... "Previous Covid Prevents Delta Infection Better Than Pfizer Shot" https://www.9news.com.au/national/coronavirus-vaccine-rollout-australia-state-by-state-guide-covid19-vaccination-rates-single-dose-double-doses-explainer/abacde8f-d35e-45ee-83bc-069ede212ecf https://www.9news.com.au/national/coronavirus-vaccine-rollou... So for children, keep it optional if someone wants to give it to their child. Mandates would be suspect.
- nouveaux 5y ago
  Do these articles really mean we can stop vaccinating? If these articles are correct, then why are we still at 70k cases per day? The only reason to not vaccinate kids is because the virus is not spreading anymore. That doesn't seem to be the case.
tmaly 5y ago
Quote from article: “ The analysts said that while that suggests the vaccine might trigger slightly more myocarditis-related hospitalizations in boys than Covid-19 hospitalizations it would prevent in the same population, the benefits still might outweigh the risks”
- berberous 5y ago
  That's a deliberately misleading partial quote; leaving off the explanation: ", given that Covid cases that require hospitalization are generally more severe than myocarditis cases. The FDA also said that its estimate of myocarditis risk was “conservative,” meaning that the risk for children in the 5 to 11 age group might be lower."

27 points by hprotagonist 5y ago

Disgusting, unnecessary, and murderous but VERY profitable for the pharmaceutical companies. Children don't need these vaccines. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01897-w https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01897-w >the studies found that COVID-19 caused 25 deaths in that age group between March 2020 and February 2021. >About half of those deaths were in individuals with an underlying complex disability with high health-care needs, such as tube feeding or assistance with breathing. In the US, 340 children under 17 have died from Covid. Total. During the same period, 187 have died from the flu, and over 51,000 children have died from all causes: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#SexAndAge https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Se...

concinds 5y ago
I will say, requiring 12 year olds to have a vaccine passport to enter public places (as is the case in much of Western Europe) is as cyberpunk-dystopian as things get, given the hospitalization numbers. A clear result of lobbying.
- trevcanhuman 5y ago
  Even having it for adults is quite dystopian to me! If the vaccine is voluntary then businesses should not force others to have it. Edit: I’d also add of course government entities or government-owned institutions such as schools! I’ve heard that some public high schools in California will require a vaccination card!, which, in my opinion, is quite extreme.
  - lghh 5y ago
    Businesses should not be forced to do business with someone they don't want to do business with.
    - trevcanhuman 5y ago
      Fair enough, but couldn’t a ban on people who do not have the vaccine be considered as discrimination ? Since when does an ice cream shop ask you if you already had your flu shot ?
      - ceejayoz 5y ago
        Discrimination by itself is perfectly legal. I can refuse to do business with redheads, or vegans, or people whose name is Bob. Discrimination based on certain specific categories is illegal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group
        trevcanhuman 5y ago
        Wow, I did not know that. I honestly don't know how to make a counterargument to this.
      - pfarrell 5y ago
        Covid-19 is not the flu.
        trevcanhuman 5y ago
        But won't herd immunity become a thing with covid-19 ?
        verdverm 5y ago
        It is also not measles or mumps, and arguably much closer to the flu than the aforementioned. Some vaccines confer life time immunity and others reduce severity.
  - ryanobjc 5y ago
    Every kid already has a vaccine card. This is one ore row on it. A lot of hyperbole for something that’s been here for the better part of a century.
    - trevcanhuman 5y ago
      Yes, but I'd consider it extreme for businesses and other entities who do not need that personal information ask for it, I also have some sort of vaccination record but I rarely take it out or show it to someone.
  - acdha 5y ago
    > I’ve heard that some public high schools in California will require a vaccination card!, which, in my opinion, is quite extreme. Do you have children? Public schools have had vaccination requirements going back to the middle of the 19th Century. If you live in California, starting before kindegarten students are required to be vaccinated against polio, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, varicella, Haemophilus influenzae, measles, mumps, and rubella. They also recommend Hep B and meningococcal vaccines but the latter are only required for college students. https://www.shotsforschool.org/k-12/ https://www.shotsforschool.org/k-12/ This is true in most of the civilized world because vaccines have changed those diseases from something my parents' generation knew as the reason why the neighbor kid died or was crippled for life to something you learn about in history class.
    - trevcanhuman 5y ago
      > Do you have children? Public schools have had vaccination requirements going back to the middle of the 19th Century. No, I’m a teenager. I didn’t know vaccination requirements were that strict/common. I vaguely remember being asked about it maybe in elementary school but right now I’m in high school and I wasn’t asked any of that to enter (for context, I go to a private high school in Mexico).
      - acdha 5y ago
        This might be of interest: note that the first U.S. government vaccine mandate was in 1777, which George Washington required smallpox inoculation for the soldiers, and the first school mandate was in 1855: https://www.historyofvaccines.org/timeline/all https://www.historyofvaccines.org/timeline/all I would suspect that you would probably have heard about this in a public school and it's also possible that this was handled by your parents without you being aware of it. It's very routine here — my son would have no idea this had happened since his doctor's office sends the records directly to the school nurse.
        peteradio 5y ago
        Wouldn't the analog of George Washington intentionally exposing his soldiers to small pox be more similar to getting covid on purpose?
- r00fus 5y ago
  Nothing in this article talks about a vax passport. We haven't even done that for adults, much less children.
  - packetlost 5y ago
    Who is we? The King County area in Washington USA is starting to enforce presenting proof of vaccination to enter businesses: https://kingcounty.gov/elected/executive/constantine/news/release/2021/September/16-proof-of-vaccination-negative-test.aspx https://kingcounty.gov/elected/executive/constantine/news/re...
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      Missed the "or a negative test" bit?
      - concinds 5y ago
        The whole "or a negative test" thing is clearly going away. It was added to make the pill easier to swallow at first; but governments (again, at least in Western Europe) seem to be getting a bit desperate to increase vaccination rates, and are making tests very very cost prohibitive (50€ per test, and you need a new test every 2-3 days), and are likely to remove that option altogether at some point. A pretty obvious slippery slope in hindsight: governments never let a crisis go to waste.
strombofulous 5y ago
I don't know anything about this, can someone provide context on why this post is getting so downvoted, the sources they are providing look very reliable
- detaro 5y ago
  How do these sources support vaccination being "murderous"? Saying it's only a bit worse than the flu is also a bit odd in this context, given the CDC recommends flu vaccinations for "everyone ages six months and older"? "reliable sources" should also support the argument being made.
- r00fus 5y ago
  Death is only one measure of difficulty. Long COVID is real and it affects kids too. It's estimated [1] that millions have symptoms that have lasted many months (1 out of 3 infected) [1] https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1003773 https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jo...
- cwmma 5y ago
  because kids not dying of covid misses the point, they can still spread it, plus those kids that have complex underlying conditions due need the vaccine and this would allow them to get it.
- standardUser 5y ago
  Calling this vaccine "murderous" should earn plenty of downvotes, given that it has killed precisely no one despite a few hundred millions doses going out so far.
  - xx511134bz 5y ago
    Deaths are being covered up, you're not looking very hard. https://vaccineimpact.com/2021/45-year-old-fbi-special-agent-dies-less-than-24-hours-after-receiving-the-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine/ https://vaccineimpact.com/2021/45-year-old-fbi-special-agent... go ahead and flag this you liars
throwawayfear 5y ago
It's not about public health. It's about control.
- barbazoo 5y ago
  In what way?
  - choward 5y ago
    You must live somewhere without mandates.
    - version_five 5y ago
      To be fair, I think it's less about control than about naked populism- vaccine mandates, and many other covid measures are wildly popular. It's basically mob rule. Liberal democracy is supposed to have built in protections for this, but when they get ignored, all bets are off. Right wing populists ignoring liberal democratic norms was the big fear a few years ago, and now it has swung far to the left. There is some element of control as you say, but I think it's more in the "show you're a member of our religion" sense than in the government or corporate control sense. This is a war people are waging on themselves.
      - throwawayfear 5y ago
        Who is in charge of our governments and corporations? If it's comprised of the people attempting to make it about their religious zeal on this subject, then I consider that no different than it being a government or corporation ploy for more power. Because at the end of the day, it's the biggest stakeholders in a corporation that will love the power to force people out of having bread if they don't comply with increasingly invasive protocols.
      - beerandt 5y ago
        If that's the case, it's even worse than a power grab. What's the quote about abusive power done on behalf of the abused, and not ever having a reason to stop?
choward 5y ago
If this and not acknowledging natural immunity doesn't show people at this point it's not about saving lives and stopping the spread then I don't know what will.
- throwawayfear 5y ago
  Fauci is dragging his feet because it's about power. The evidence is painting a very different picture from what power-hungry commentators on the internet or mass media are trying to say. If they admitted something about antibodies from past infection or the state of antibodies in the broader American population, they would have to admit that on their own terms they should no longer have any power or influence over the public anymore. Sources: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9 "Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime" https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article253987048.html https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article25398704... "More than 80% of Americans have coronavirus antibodies acquired through infection or vaccination, according to a new study of over 1.4 million blood donations across the U.S." https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-covid-prevents-delta-infection-better-than-pfizer-shot https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-... "Previous Covid Prevents Delta Infection Better Than Pfizer Shot" The picture that emerges is clear for anyone looking at just the evidence. Edited statement: Why is my comment flagged? I sourced the claims and am throwing down the gauntlet expecting a legitimate challenge on the contention. But instead, even though this comment got many upvotes for the time it was posted...it got flagged? We should really make flagging a public thing to higher-karma users so we can see who is being a dishonorable netizen here.
glennpratt 5y ago
By your numbers, which I haven't checked, COVID-19 killed more children than the flu, which we vaccinate for? Ignoring the fact that one reason we vaccinate is to reduce spread, like our kids grandparents and great-grandparents.
- collias 5y ago
  The difference is the control aspect. As far as I know, you won't be labeled as a second class citizen for not getting a flu shot.
  - glennpratt 5y ago
    I don't know where you are coming from, but there are many contexts in the US that required a flu vaccine in the past. And of course other vaccines. The goal posts will move wherever it's convenient for antivax crowd.
    - rsj_hn 5y ago
      That's interesting -- can you cite an example of when there was a national US flu vaccine mandate? What about a local mandate? IIRC, there have not been federal or local government flu mandates although there were local government mandates for things like smallpox in school kids (but not for the entire population). For example, here is a 2009 policy position from OSHA saying that it does not mandate flu vaccines[1]: However, although OSHA does not specifically require employees to take the vaccines, an employer may do so. But if I missed an example of a historical flu mandate, I'd love to hear it. [1] https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/2009-11-09 https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/2009-...
      - glennpratt 5y ago
        Did I mention OSHA? I gather you don't like the particular policy, but that wasn't my point and I didn't know what context GP was concerned about. Other people were talking about Europe. Also, for the OSHA rules, they allow for a testing.
caethan 5y ago
The risks of Covid to children is, as you say, extremely low. The risk of the Pfizer vaccine to children is even lower. Right now those "individuals with an underlying complex disability" are not allowed to get vaccinated because the vaccine has not been approved for young children, even with an emergency use authorization. I think the parents of children with disabilities that make Covid more potentially dangerous for them ought to be allowed to vaccinate their child. Do you disagree?
- choward 5y ago
  I'm okay with approving it for kids but mandating is a whole different story.
  - caethan 5y ago
    I think we're at the point where public mandates are doing more harm than good. I am disappointed that there are so many people pushing back against simple approval of an effective vaccine because they are worried about an unnecessary mandate being imposed.
    - peteradio 5y ago
      Indeed. Even this panel discussed that they must keep in mind that what they are voting on is whether to release it for optional use not mandatory use. Unfortunately they have no bearing on whether the government bodies decide to mandate it.
cwmma 5y ago
kids tend not to die from covid, but they can spread it, this is in fact a point the article makes. The point of the vaccine for kids is it would primarily prevent spread of covid to other more vulnerable people, but it would also protect some kids who were vulnerable to do underlying conditions.
- christkv 5y ago
  Unfortunately so does vaccinated people (some studies says it lower the transmission rate, others say they don't). The vaccines are not the firebreak that people think they are.
  - cwmma 5y ago
    while it's true that vaccinated people can transmit it, and it has been suggested that it doesn't lower transmission rate during the period where they are contagious, they prevent the vast majority of people from being contagious in the first place, meaning yes they are 100% the firebreak that people think they are, you are being willfully ignorant to think they aren't.
dang 5y ago
Please make your substantive points without flamebait and name-calling. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- corey_moncure 5y ago
  What name calling though? There is exactly one word in his post that even qualifies as an unsubstantiated value judgement: "disgusting". It's appeared in 12,263 comments. If Nature and CDC are flamebait, we're done man, we're just done.
  - dang 5y ago
    "Murderous" also counts, in this context. The comment would have been much better without the first sentence, which was obvious flamebait. We've already had enough vaccine flamewars and covid flamewars to last a lifetime.

barbazoo 5y ago

In the context of prevention of hospitalization, why is the article talking about "boys" and not children in general?

standardUser 5y ago
It certainly reads very oddly. But from the linked article, it seems risk of myocarditis is what researchers were looking at when they did that modeling... "In older boys and young men, the vaccine has been linked to myocarditis. It has occurred in somewhere around 1 in 10,000 boys and men between the ages of 16 and 19 who received a second dose, though estimates of the risk vary."
caethan 5y ago
Because the largest risk anyone has found with the Pfizer vaccine is of myocarditis in teenage boys.
collias 5y ago
Some studies suggest that the risk of myocarditis/pericarditis among vaccinated young boys is higher than their risk of hospitalization due to Covid. The fact that this is even a possibility, and the data on it is changing so rapidly, should give everyone pause and ask what's really going on. Is it for the public good, or is it for pharma profits? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/10/boys-more-at-risk-from-pfizer-jab-side-effect-than-covid-suggests-study https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/10/boys-more-at-r...
- azinman2 5y ago
  That is at odds with previous studies, assumes you’re looking at a very short time horizon for getting Covid and negating beyond that entirely, and ignores that myocarditis is treatable as a side effect. Given there’s a pandemic going on that’s resulted in massive casualties, assuming this is only being done for pharma profits doesn’t pass Occam’s razor.
  - collias 5y ago

mStreamTeam 5y ago

Just a reminder that medical consent is your right. And you have the right to say no to any medical procedure

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SjorsVG 5y ago
Sure, but you are forbidden from entering lots of places without proof of vaccination or a recent certified test (not cheap).
lghh 5y ago
And you also have a right to distance yourself from someone based on their choices.
- throwawayfear 5y ago
  Anyone wanting to do this doesn't need to know someone else's choices except by asking in private. Feel free to distance yourself from anyone not meeting your conditions. Whereas in general public, wear a mask and social distance. Imposing these "rights" onto the general public is Nanny State hall monitoring on steroids, enacted and enforced by people who...we no longer have any reason to trust. Why can't we trust them? Because their entire schpiel over the last year about getting to herd immunity and endemic covid has gone out the window as of late. They are dragging their feet on acknowledging reality. Here's sources explaining why: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9 "Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime" https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article253987048.html https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article25398704... "More than 80% of Americans have coronavirus antibodies acquired through infection or vaccination, according to a new study of over 1.4 million blood donations across the U.S." https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-covid-prevents-delta-infection-better-than-pfizer-shot https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-... "Previous Covid Prevents Delta Infection Better Than Pfizer Shot" The picture that emerges is clear. These "temporary" mandates no longer have a basis in reality.

LatteLazy 5y ago

If people do or don't want to get vaccinated, that's up to them. But with kids it's harder because parents expect a veto. Reddit is full of adults whose parents have gone nuts because they choose to get vaccinated. Imagine the same with under 18s. So good luck with that...

ed25519FUUU 5y ago

I'm firmly in the "wait and see" group with my kids for two reasons. The FDA says that the side effects in children are comparable with the "16 to 25 years" age group, which is the age group that has the highest incidents of myocarditis with both mRNA vaccines. The sample size was too small to detect myocarditis according to the FDA, so people who are eager to vaccinate their children can provide that data set pretty quickly. Also the “Long-term safety of COVID-19 vaccine in participants 5 to <12 years of age will be studied in 5 post-authorization safety studies.” Again, I'm choosing not allow my children to be a data point in that study.

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throwawayfear 5y ago

The mandates are not necessary anymore, certainly not in America or in Australia. The reason I say that is because the number of people with antibodies which prevent reinfection or most breakthrough cases, is now in major excess of what Fauci and other public servants have been saying would achieve endemic covid / herd immunity for the last year. Sources: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9 "Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime" https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article253987048.html https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article25398704... "More than 80% of Americans have coronavirus antibodies acquired through infection or vaccination, according to a new study of over 1.4 million blood donations across the U.S." https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-covid-prevents-delta-infection-better-than-pfizer-shot https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-... "Previous Covid Prevents Delta Infection Better Than Pfizer Shot" https://www.9news.com.au/national/coronavirus-vaccine-rollout-australia-state-by-state-guide-covid19-vaccination-rates-single-dose-double-doses-explainer/abacde8f-d35e-45ee-83bc-069ede212ecf https://www.9news.com.au/national/coronavirus-vaccine-rollou... So for children, keep it optional if someone wants to give it to their child. Mandates would be suspect.

nouveaux 5y ago
Do these articles really mean we can stop vaccinating? If these articles are correct, then why are we still at 70k cases per day? The only reason to not vaccinate kids is because the virus is not spreading anymore. That doesn't seem to be the case.

tmaly 5y ago

Quote from article: “ The analysts said that while that suggests the vaccine might trigger slightly more myocarditis-related hospitalizations in boys than Covid-19 hospitalizations it would prevent in the same population, the benefits still might outweigh the risks”

berberous 5y ago
That's a deliberately misleading partial quote; leaving off the explanation: ", given that Covid cases that require hospitalization are generally more severe than myocarditis cases. The FDA also said that its estimate of myocarditis risk was “conservative,” meaning that the risk for children in the 5 to 11 age group might be lower."