4 ms·

The problem is colleges and universities have increased their prices so much over the last 20 years they're forcing people to make this kind of analysis on ROI.

The problem is colleges and universities have increased their prices so much over the last 20 years they're forcing people to make this kind of analysis on ROI. In the old days a young person could pay for a local university with a part time job and spend 4 years getting a major with a poor ROI just because it was interesting or so they can participate in campus life, but those days are gone. Now that a 4 year degree could result in a lifetime of debt people should do some careful analysis before making that kind of decision, and that’s purely on these institutions of higher learning for pricing themselves out of the market.

bjelkeman-again 5y ago
Here is where I realise how happy I am to live in a country with a pretty good educational system, which is free to any citizen who qualifies to enter. Commercial healthcare and education seem to really bring about the worst aspects of a market economy, in some countries. Not sure where it works well, it maybe somewhere.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  > Commercial healthcare and education seem to really bring about the worst aspects of a market economy, in some countries. Not sure where it works well, it maybe somewhere. Mostly, IMO, because they're not free markets. Healthcare actively fights price transparency, and is largely driven by fixed demand and artificially constrained supply. College costs can only do what they do because the whole thing is financed by grants and uniquely binding loans pushed on students who barely understand what they're getting into. If we could force the whole thing into an actual free market, it'd vastly improve the situation.
- anamax 5y ago
  > which is free to any citizen who qualifies to enter. Ah yes, "qualifies". How many citizens "qualify"? The number of people who qualify is decided by two people - the person allocating money and the person running the education system. The person allocating the money says "I'll give you {amount}". The person running the education system says "{amount} will let us educate {number}".
  - Jensson 5y ago
    > The person allocating the money says "I'll give you {amount}". The person running the education system says "{amount} will let us educate {number}". Nah, they say "I'll give you {amount} to educate {number}", and then the educator tries to do as much as possible with the resources they got. There is no negotiation about either {amount} or {number}, other than trying to argue that amount or number needs to be changed because quality or industry wants more/less.
    - anamax 5y ago
      My point stands - the number who "qualify" is decided by two bureaucracies. One decides how much money to spend, the other spends it. In such a system, it's typical that one bureaucracy decides what "qualify" means. And another decides what "educate" means.
- maccolgan 5y ago
  >pretty good educational system, which is free to any citizen Just because you are not paying for it doesn't mean it has zero costs. If you're not paying for it, someone else is, the ROI burden gets shifted to the society as a whole, which is much, much worse than the burden being on an individual.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    German universities tend to kick you out just as quickly as let you in. When the students are paying thousands in tuition you can't do that. You'll let them stay to get their tuition money even if you're wasting the time of that student.
  - bjelkeman-again 5y ago
    We will probably have to agree to disagree on that. The cost at a technical university in Sweden, to the society is about USD 10 k/year [1]. MIT is 77 k/year [2]. MIT is ranked first in the world. KTH (89) and Chalmers (121) in Sweden are ranked top 10% in the listed 1300 [3] Is it better for society to get a decent education for a low cost, for society as a whole? It seems to work for Sweden, and many other European countries. [4] [1] https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helårsstudent_och_helårsprestation https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helårsstudent_och_helårspresta... [2] https://sfs.mit.edu/undergraduate-students/the-cost-of-attendance/annual-student-budget/ https://sfs.mit.edu/undergraduate-students/the-cost-of-atten... [3] https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2022 https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-un... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

bjelkeman-again 5y ago

Here is where I realise how happy I am to live in a country with a pretty good educational system, which is free to any citizen who qualifies to enter. Commercial healthcare and education seem to really bring about the worst aspects of a market economy, in some countries. Not sure where it works well, it maybe somewhere.

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
> Commercial healthcare and education seem to really bring about the worst aspects of a market economy, in some countries. Not sure where it works well, it maybe somewhere. Mostly, IMO, because they're not free markets. Healthcare actively fights price transparency, and is largely driven by fixed demand and artificially constrained supply. College costs can only do what they do because the whole thing is financed by grants and uniquely binding loans pushed on students who barely understand what they're getting into. If we could force the whole thing into an actual free market, it'd vastly improve the situation.
anamax 5y ago
> which is free to any citizen who qualifies to enter. Ah yes, "qualifies". How many citizens "qualify"? The number of people who qualify is decided by two people - the person allocating money and the person running the education system. The person allocating the money says "I'll give you {amount}". The person running the education system says "{amount} will let us educate {number}".
- Jensson 5y ago
  > The person allocating the money says "I'll give you {amount}". The person running the education system says "{amount} will let us educate {number}". Nah, they say "I'll give you {amount} to educate {number}", and then the educator tries to do as much as possible with the resources they got. There is no negotiation about either {amount} or {number}, other than trying to argue that amount or number needs to be changed because quality or industry wants more/less.
  - anamax 5y ago
    My point stands - the number who "qualify" is decided by two bureaucracies. One decides how much money to spend, the other spends it. In such a system, it's typical that one bureaucracy decides what "qualify" means. And another decides what "educate" means.
maccolgan 5y ago
>pretty good educational system, which is free to any citizen Just because you are not paying for it doesn't mean it has zero costs. If you're not paying for it, someone else is, the ROI burden gets shifted to the society as a whole, which is much, much worse than the burden being on an individual.
- imtringued 5y ago
  German universities tend to kick you out just as quickly as let you in. When the students are paying thousands in tuition you can't do that. You'll let them stay to get their tuition money even if you're wasting the time of that student.
- bjelkeman-again 5y ago
  We will probably have to agree to disagree on that. The cost at a technical university in Sweden, to the society is about USD 10 k/year [1]. MIT is 77 k/year [2]. MIT is ranked first in the world. KTH (89) and Chalmers (121) in Sweden are ranked top 10% in the listed 1300 [3] Is it better for society to get a decent education for a low cost, for society as a whole? It seems to work for Sweden, and many other European countries. [4] [1] https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helårsstudent_och_helårsprestation https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helårsstudent_och_helårspresta... [2] https://sfs.mit.edu/undergraduate-students/the-cost-of-attendance/annual-student-budget/ https://sfs.mit.edu/undergraduate-students/the-cost-of-atten... [3] https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2022 https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-un... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index