5 ms·

> you can walk in plenty of places in Berlin (and it's often German authorities in the lead) and spot much worse dealers than those selling online People who s

> you can walk in plenty of places in Berlin (and it's often German authorities in the lead) and spot much worse dealers than those selling online People who sell online are very different from those who sell in-person. Most come from socio-economic backgrounds where all kinds of anti-social behaviour is normalized. They are also not "professional" so to speak, and do not know the words Op and Sec. Someone who's selling acid on the net will not rob you, since they're not dumb enough to. So it's an apples to oranges comparison in my opinion. Regardless, I do wish they would cut it out with the useless arrests. Good job, you seized a car-full of drugs and some dudes who mail drugs, do they think the global drug market has felt real hit? That unlike at every point in human history in which something was prohibited, the black market will just stop? That this actually puts a dent into the bottom-line of criminals? Even if it did, momentary weakness by one criminal group is an immediate invitation for another to expand.

FireBeyond 5y ago
This is a dangerous normalization. Realize that I am generally for decriminalization. But the myth that dark web vendors are "violence/crime free drugs" is exactly that, a myth. There are certainly drugs which have less (but not none) of a violent pipeline (for example, lab-synthesized drugs), but just because you buy your cocaine from someone on Tor doesn't mean that there's not abuse, corruption, crime, violence and death associated with its sourcing and growth. I think comments like this, or beliefs like this are a sort of feel-good mythology. Or "changing the world", or something. Superiority (though to be clear, I'm not ascribing any one of these to your specific comment). But it is a lot less grounded in reality than proponents would like to think.
- dj_mc_merlin 5y ago
  You're assuming that's what I meant, but no, not at all. One does not make cocaine without violence through some degree. As you noted, somebody making acid is probably not killing anyone. But association with a criminal gang, even just through trade, definitely morally implicates them more than street dealers. That said, they will not break my door down to try and rob me. Street dealers have done that in the past. This is a selfish perspective sure, but street dealers are generally a much bigger danger to me than being murdered by Colombian drug lords. This is what I meant by "apples to oranges".. organized criminals are much worse morally (the law agrees here), but pretty unlikely to actually do anything to you, since they are organized and do not wish to attract attention.
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    Is there anything stopping us from having conflict-free organic fair-trade cocaine other than government actions and prohibitions making that impossible? If Colombia/Bolivia/Peru could collect an export tax or royalty on it before loading into the hold of a DHL cargo jet, I think their cartels would get disappeared overnight.
    - FireBeyond 5y ago
      Right, absolutely. Decriminalization or outright legalization has some benefits in this world. Biggest issue I see there is that you still have to deal with corruption or infiltration by those elements too, who want their pound of flesh (and not to mention, in some of those countries, the cartels have the willingness, and the equipment and ability, to go to war with the police/military to keep their operation going).
      - Scoundreller 5y ago
        The police and military will always be poorly resourced for battles that are a cost centre instead of a revenue-generator/protector. Unlike marijuana, these countries have an absolute advantage in that cocaine doesn’t grow like a weed anywhere you want. And it’s low yield, so greenhouses are poor competition.
aqme28 5y ago
> Good job, you seized a car-full of drugs and some dudes who mail drugs, do they think the global drug market has felt real hit? There's a great interview on YouTube with a former drug enforcement officer, whose department spent 7 months to bust a large drug ring. He said it took two hours before other dealers had moved in.
- _hl_ 5y ago
  I believe I know what you're referring to but can't find the link anymore now. The main takeaway for me was that by busting a major drug ring, you are only helping the other major players b removing competition. They will fight each other (brutally!) to take over what was left behind by the now defunct ring, and instead of two or more large drug rings, you now have one massive monopolistic drug ring, and everyone is worse off. I'm not sure what a solution here is. The more you fight organised crime, the more they fight back, and the situation escalates and becomes more violent to everyone involved. Perhaps decriminalisation along with better support infrastructure for victims and addicts could help?
Scoundreller 5y ago
Well, some black markets have been successfully disrupted. It’s hard to get relatively-safe but difficult-to-smuggle opium and heroin due to supply disruption, so now the market has almost entirely shifted to fentanyl which is easy to produce and ultra potent (therefore easy to smuggle). Yay?
- short12 5y ago
  It is not relatively hard. It is super easy, barely an inconvenience. And fentanyl is old and busted, Iso is the new hotness For testing strips you can just go to dancesafe.org and get a kit Sidenote: dancesafe and erowid were heavily funded by one of the earliest Microsoft employees

FireBeyond 5y ago

This is a dangerous normalization. Realize that I am generally for decriminalization. But the myth that dark web vendors are "violence/crime free drugs" is exactly that, a myth. There are certainly drugs which have less (but not none) of a violent pipeline (for example, lab-synthesized drugs), but just because you buy your cocaine from someone on Tor doesn't mean that there's not abuse, corruption, crime, violence and death associated with its sourcing and growth. I think comments like this, or beliefs like this are a sort of feel-good mythology. Or "changing the world", or something. Superiority (though to be clear, I'm not ascribing any one of these to your specific comment). But it is a lot less grounded in reality than proponents would like to think.

dj_mc_merlin 5y ago
You're assuming that's what I meant, but no, not at all. One does not make cocaine without violence through some degree. As you noted, somebody making acid is probably not killing anyone. But association with a criminal gang, even just through trade, definitely morally implicates them more than street dealers. That said, they will not break my door down to try and rob me. Street dealers have done that in the past. This is a selfish perspective sure, but street dealers are generally a much bigger danger to me than being murdered by Colombian drug lords. This is what I meant by "apples to oranges".. organized criminals are much worse morally (the law agrees here), but pretty unlikely to actually do anything to you, since they are organized and do not wish to attract attention.
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  Is there anything stopping us from having conflict-free organic fair-trade cocaine other than government actions and prohibitions making that impossible? If Colombia/Bolivia/Peru could collect an export tax or royalty on it before loading into the hold of a DHL cargo jet, I think their cartels would get disappeared overnight.
  - FireBeyond 5y ago
    Right, absolutely. Decriminalization or outright legalization has some benefits in this world. Biggest issue I see there is that you still have to deal with corruption or infiltration by those elements too, who want their pound of flesh (and not to mention, in some of those countries, the cartels have the willingness, and the equipment and ability, to go to war with the police/military to keep their operation going).
    - Scoundreller 5y ago
      The police and military will always be poorly resourced for battles that are a cost centre instead of a revenue-generator/protector. Unlike marijuana, these countries have an absolute advantage in that cocaine doesn’t grow like a weed anywhere you want. And it’s low yield, so greenhouses are poor competition.

aqme28 5y ago

> Good job, you seized a car-full of drugs and some dudes who mail drugs, do they think the global drug market has felt real hit? There's a great interview on YouTube with a former drug enforcement officer, whose department spent 7 months to bust a large drug ring. He said it took two hours before other dealers had moved in.

_hl_ 5y ago
I believe I know what you're referring to but can't find the link anymore now. The main takeaway for me was that by busting a major drug ring, you are only helping the other major players b removing competition. They will fight each other (brutally!) to take over what was left behind by the now defunct ring, and instead of two or more large drug rings, you now have one massive monopolistic drug ring, and everyone is worse off. I'm not sure what a solution here is. The more you fight organised crime, the more they fight back, and the situation escalates and becomes more violent to everyone involved. Perhaps decriminalisation along with better support infrastructure for victims and addicts could help?

Scoundreller 5y ago

Well, some black markets have been successfully disrupted. It’s hard to get relatively-safe but difficult-to-smuggle opium and heroin due to supply disruption, so now the market has almost entirely shifted to fentanyl which is easy to produce and ultra potent (therefore easy to smuggle). Yay?

short12 5y ago
It is not relatively hard. It is super easy, barely an inconvenience. And fentanyl is old and busted, Iso is the new hotness For testing strips you can just go to dancesafe.org and get a kit Sidenote: dancesafe and erowid were heavily funded by one of the earliest Microsoft employees