13 ms·

Why I didn’t apologize for that Yale Law School email

28 points by hncurious 5y ago

nynx 5y ago
[flagged]
- Aliabid94 5y ago
  Being offended does not give you the undeniable power to demand apologies.
  - blitzar 5y ago
    They are as free to be offended or request an appology as the author is to say what they like. Everyone is quite litterally free. Everyone is also free to judge these people on their actions.
  - whoknew1122 5y ago
    You can demand anything at any time. Doesn't mean you're getting one. He said something that people took offense to. They demanded an apology. He didn't apologize. I'm not sure why this necessitated a blog article, much less one circulated on Hacker News. For what it's worth, I'm a white guy who grew up in poverty and have seen more than one trap house. I'm uncomfortable about the use of trap house here, because it's ridiculous. Yale Law School is one of the most privileged places in the US. It demeans the experiences of people who have been subjected to actual poverty and drug-infested areas to equate anything at Yale with a trap house.
    - unethical_ban 5y ago
      Was it such an offensive message that it deserved letters to administration claiming the author is racially insensitive? Was it so offensive, that it required school administrators to hurriedly draft a template apology to make it go away? As the author said, the term trap house has a common colloquial meaning among certain people; whether one finds it offensive from a "triggering" perspective, it is not in good faith to ignore that and have the person kicked out of a career, in my opinion.
    - CodeGlitch 5y ago
      Don't forget that the administrators threatened that the situation "could escalate". Being in his position I would read that as being expelled. It's important and should be on hacker news because one day they'll come for you.
  - shadowgovt 5y ago
    From the ancient human custom of group shunning to the modern dragging, when a person is outside the good graces of their community, they are under threat. When lots of people are offended, they have the power to refrain from interacting with an individual. And we are social creatures. Practically speaking, one's power to demand an apology is proportional to what happens to the demandee if you decide they aren't worth interacting with in the future. If you're a social, political, or corporate leader, or a member of a union (formal or informal / social), it can be quite a lot of power.
- blitzar 5y ago
  No offence, but ... Not being racist, but ... Not a conservatives are being oppressed rant, but ... Its almost a cliche
- xboxnolifes 5y ago
  > Look, if you use some particular language that other people find offensive, even if you didn’t mean it that way, just apologize. I disagree. You apologize if you believe you did something wrong. If you do not feel what you did was wrong, do not apologize.
  - nynx 5y ago
    He’s certainly free to do that and that seems to be what ultimately happened. That being said, he’s free to experience the social consequences of showing himself to be unable or unwilling to read a room.
    - xboxnolifes 5y ago
      It's not just about being "free" to do something. It's about not putting out the fake "I'm sorry you are offended" apology.
- hncurious 5y ago
  Mob: She's a witch! Accused: Hold on. Let me explain. Some frogs hibernate and it was merely awaking after... You: Just apologize. You were holding a frog that reanimated. Whether you intended to appear a witch or not, the mob thinks you are. That's what matters. So just bend to their demands and all will be well. The mob won't grow in power with yet another victim. Certainly they will never come for me. I'm an ally. Educate yourself. Be better.
  - nynx 5y ago
    Be honest with what the situation is. This is completely about whether he used language that some people found offensive. They have the right to be offended, have the right to ask for an apology, and have the right to ask the university to demand an apology. No one is threatening death or bodily harm. It’s not a witch hunt. shadowgovt phrased it well lower in the comment section: > Honestly, Yale's administration is trying to help. > This individual's major risk surface isn't what Yale will do to him... It's that his peers have filed his name away in their personal Rolodex-analog as "Someone very, very clueless about tone and reading a room." i.e. "Someone I don't want as partner in my law firm."
unanswered 5y ago
Why is HN publishing racist rants like this one?
- unethical_ban 5y ago
  What was racist about it?
  - unanswered 5y ago
    That you even need to ask that makes it pretty clear that you're a racist too.
    - unethical_ban 5y ago
      I was asking in good faith.
ssklash 5y ago
Funny that someone in law school doesn't seem to grasp that free speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences.
- TechBro8615 5y ago
  You serious? Did you read his email that was allegedly so offensive the dean drafted an apology letter for him? I rarely use this term, but – clown world. Absolute clown world. You are one of the clowns, congrats.
  - dang 5y ago
    You've been repeatedly posting flamewar comments and aggressive attacks. We ban accounts that do that. I actually just banned you for this, but then looked closer at comment history and decided to undo that and warn you instead. You can't attack other users regardless of how wrong they are or you feel they are. It's also not ok to use HN for ideological and political flamewar. If you would please stop doing these things and use HN as intended from now on, we'd appreciate it. The rules are here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - TechBro8615 5y ago
      Well, I appreciate the warning I suppose. I created this pseudonym to post (what I consider valid but) semi-controversial comments that some find politically untenable, so perhaps I overcommitted to the mission. Although I think you’ll find I rarely start a political discussion in a non-political thread – I’m keenly aware of the risk of polluting the board with that which is why I try to join existing politics threads rather than start them. FWIW, when my most recently flagged comment has 16 upvotes, perhaps there is something to it. On the other hand, this one you’re replying to was aggressive but I think you’ll find it to be an outlier, and that I have sparse history of personal (let alone “aggressive”) attacks against anyone who isn’t a public figure or trying to be. Anyway, keep up the good work, I’ll avoid the personal attacks. But I’m not gonna change the perspective I bring to these discussions, so if that’s the issue you can just ban me now.
politician 5y ago
PSA: The author is a Native American.
rcpt 5y ago
Probably the least interesting dei criticism lately. Would rather have a repost of the mit climate change lecture
marvinvz 5y ago
As a confused european: this one word can cause "harm" in the USA?
- SllX 5y ago
  Not usually; unless you’re dealing with an administration with not enough vertebrae to add up to one spine between them.
- kcplate 5y ago
  Well, if you are specifically looking for a word, any word, that might be loosely connected to your marginalized community that was spoken by someone who follows an opposing political tradition..then “apparently”. I thought his dissection of the word “corny” as a possible slur to his Native American background was a perfect illustration of how ridiculous his situation truly was.
sawmurai 5y ago
You North Americans (is there something like USAians?) are really something else …
- SllX 5y ago
  Americans.
okdjnfweonfe 5y ago
> The Yale administrators did not believe I had been racist by using the phrase “trap house.” + > an email was sent to Yale Law’s entire second-year class “condemn[ing] in the strongest possible terms” the “pejorative and racist language” in the invitation. == Yale Law administration was happy to lie to their entire second-year class. If true, then the administration was more interested about protecting their brand, than caring about the health and wellbeing of any of their students
- dariusj18 5y ago
  "pejorative and racist language" does not equal being racist. The article seems pretty clear that the author had no idea the language had racial roots (if they can be called that given it's kinda racist to assume that a drug den is race related) and therefore they were not being racist. I take that at face value because I also only had a modern surface level knowledge of the term "trap house" from similar contexts. In a way this seems like the perfect use for an "I'm sorry you were offended" "apology".
  - shadowgovt 5y ago
    It's possible to say racist things without intending to be racist. In fact, it's extremely likely given how much of American culture is pretty firmly grounded in a racist history; a lot of common sayings started as racially-charged stereotypes. So these racist sayings are propagated forward by people innocently unaware of their origins and implied meaning. Whether one, having learned that history, changes one's choice of language or shrugs, says "I didn't invent the term so its use is not my problem," and charges forward will influence the kind of company one keeps in our society.
    - throwoutway 5y ago
      Question: if 100,000,000 people use some common phrase, innocently unaware of its history/roots, and one person finds a racist definition for it from 200 years ago, why should the entire population be beholden to an outdated definition? Shouldn’t we be able to change the definition (after all, that’s exactly what dictionaries do)
yeezyseezy 5y ago
I mean this sincerely, do public apologies ever help in situations like this? Anecdotally, I always seem to see them backfire as insincere or insufficient.

28 points by hncurious 5y ago

nynx 5y ago

[flagged]

Aliabid94 5y ago
Being offended does not give you the undeniable power to demand apologies.
- blitzar 5y ago
  They are as free to be offended or request an appology as the author is to say what they like. Everyone is quite litterally free. Everyone is also free to judge these people on their actions.
- whoknew1122 5y ago
  You can demand anything at any time. Doesn't mean you're getting one. He said something that people took offense to. They demanded an apology. He didn't apologize. I'm not sure why this necessitated a blog article, much less one circulated on Hacker News. For what it's worth, I'm a white guy who grew up in poverty and have seen more than one trap house. I'm uncomfortable about the use of trap house here, because it's ridiculous. Yale Law School is one of the most privileged places in the US. It demeans the experiences of people who have been subjected to actual poverty and drug-infested areas to equate anything at Yale with a trap house.
  - unethical_ban 5y ago
    Was it such an offensive message that it deserved letters to administration claiming the author is racially insensitive? Was it so offensive, that it required school administrators to hurriedly draft a template apology to make it go away? As the author said, the term trap house has a common colloquial meaning among certain people; whether one finds it offensive from a "triggering" perspective, it is not in good faith to ignore that and have the person kicked out of a career, in my opinion.
  - CodeGlitch 5y ago
    Don't forget that the administrators threatened that the situation "could escalate". Being in his position I would read that as being expelled. It's important and should be on hacker news because one day they'll come for you.
- shadowgovt 5y ago
  From the ancient human custom of group shunning to the modern dragging, when a person is outside the good graces of their community, they are under threat. When lots of people are offended, they have the power to refrain from interacting with an individual. And we are social creatures. Practically speaking, one's power to demand an apology is proportional to what happens to the demandee if you decide they aren't worth interacting with in the future. If you're a social, political, or corporate leader, or a member of a union (formal or informal / social), it can be quite a lot of power.
blitzar 5y ago
No offence, but ... Not being racist, but ... Not a conservatives are being oppressed rant, but ... Its almost a cliche
xboxnolifes 5y ago
> Look, if you use some particular language that other people find offensive, even if you didn’t mean it that way, just apologize. I disagree. You apologize if you believe you did something wrong. If you do not feel what you did was wrong, do not apologize.
- nynx 5y ago
  He’s certainly free to do that and that seems to be what ultimately happened. That being said, he’s free to experience the social consequences of showing himself to be unable or unwilling to read a room.
  - xboxnolifes 5y ago
    It's not just about being "free" to do something. It's about not putting out the fake "I'm sorry you are offended" apology.
hncurious 5y ago
Mob: She's a witch! Accused: Hold on. Let me explain. Some frogs hibernate and it was merely awaking after... You: Just apologize. You were holding a frog that reanimated. Whether you intended to appear a witch or not, the mob thinks you are. That's what matters. So just bend to their demands and all will be well. The mob won't grow in power with yet another victim. Certainly they will never come for me. I'm an ally. Educate yourself. Be better.
- nynx 5y ago
  Be honest with what the situation is. This is completely about whether he used language that some people found offensive. They have the right to be offended, have the right to ask for an apology, and have the right to ask the university to demand an apology. No one is threatening death or bodily harm. It’s not a witch hunt. shadowgovt phrased it well lower in the comment section: > Honestly, Yale's administration is trying to help. > This individual's major risk surface isn't what Yale will do to him... It's that his peers have filed his name away in their personal Rolodex-analog as "Someone very, very clueless about tone and reading a room." i.e. "Someone I don't want as partner in my law firm."

unanswered 5y ago

Why is HN publishing racist rants like this one?

unethical_ban 5y ago
What was racist about it?
- unanswered 5y ago
  That you even need to ask that makes it pretty clear that you're a racist too.
  - unethical_ban 5y ago
    I was asking in good faith.

ssklash 5y ago

Funny that someone in law school doesn't seem to grasp that free speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences.

TechBro8615 5y ago
You serious? Did you read his email that was allegedly so offensive the dean drafted an apology letter for him? I rarely use this term, but – clown world. Absolute clown world. You are one of the clowns, congrats.
- dang 5y ago
  You've been repeatedly posting flamewar comments and aggressive attacks. We ban accounts that do that. I actually just banned you for this, but then looked closer at comment history and decided to undo that and warn you instead. You can't attack other users regardless of how wrong they are or you feel they are. It's also not ok to use HN for ideological and political flamewar. If you would please stop doing these things and use HN as intended from now on, we'd appreciate it. The rules are here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - TechBro8615 5y ago
    Well, I appreciate the warning I suppose. I created this pseudonym to post (what I consider valid but) semi-controversial comments that some find politically untenable, so perhaps I overcommitted to the mission. Although I think you’ll find I rarely start a political discussion in a non-political thread – I’m keenly aware of the risk of polluting the board with that which is why I try to join existing politics threads rather than start them. FWIW, when my most recently flagged comment has 16 upvotes, perhaps there is something to it. On the other hand, this one you’re replying to was aggressive but I think you’ll find it to be an outlier, and that I have sparse history of personal (let alone “aggressive”) attacks against anyone who isn’t a public figure or trying to be. Anyway, keep up the good work, I’ll avoid the personal attacks. But I’m not gonna change the perspective I bring to these discussions, so if that’s the issue you can just ban me now.

politician 5y ago

PSA: The author is a Native American.

rcpt 5y ago

Probably the least interesting dei criticism lately. Would rather have a repost of the mit climate change lecture

marvinvz 5y ago

As a confused european: this one word can cause "harm" in the USA?

SllX 5y ago
Not usually; unless you’re dealing with an administration with not enough vertebrae to add up to one spine between them.
kcplate 5y ago
Well, if you are specifically looking for a word, any word, that might be loosely connected to your marginalized community that was spoken by someone who follows an opposing political tradition..then “apparently”. I thought his dissection of the word “corny” as a possible slur to his Native American background was a perfect illustration of how ridiculous his situation truly was.

sawmurai 5y ago

You North Americans (is there something like USAians?) are really something else …

SllX 5y ago
Americans.

okdjnfweonfe 5y ago

> The Yale administrators did not believe I had been racist by using the phrase “trap house.” + > an email was sent to Yale Law’s entire second-year class “condemn[ing] in the strongest possible terms” the “pejorative and racist language” in the invitation. == Yale Law administration was happy to lie to their entire second-year class. If true, then the administration was more interested about protecting their brand, than caring about the health and wellbeing of any of their students

dariusj18 5y ago
"pejorative and racist language" does not equal being racist. The article seems pretty clear that the author had no idea the language had racial roots (if they can be called that given it's kinda racist to assume that a drug den is race related) and therefore they were not being racist. I take that at face value because I also only had a modern surface level knowledge of the term "trap house" from similar contexts. In a way this seems like the perfect use for an "I'm sorry you were offended" "apology".
- shadowgovt 5y ago
  It's possible to say racist things without intending to be racist. In fact, it's extremely likely given how much of American culture is pretty firmly grounded in a racist history; a lot of common sayings started as racially-charged stereotypes. So these racist sayings are propagated forward by people innocently unaware of their origins and implied meaning. Whether one, having learned that history, changes one's choice of language or shrugs, says "I didn't invent the term so its use is not my problem," and charges forward will influence the kind of company one keeps in our society.
  - throwoutway 5y ago
    Question: if 100,000,000 people use some common phrase, innocently unaware of its history/roots, and one person finds a racist definition for it from 200 years ago, why should the entire population be beholden to an outdated definition? Shouldn’t we be able to change the definition (after all, that’s exactly what dictionaries do)

yeezyseezy 5y ago

I mean this sincerely, do public apologies ever help in situations like this? Anecdotally, I always seem to see them backfire as insincere or insufficient.