4 ms·

I mean, you have a point, but at the same time, Carmack and Romero have literally been pulling these kinds of shenanigan's since John^2 were working at Softdisk

I mean, you have a point, but at the same time, Carmack and Romero have literally been pulling these kinds of shenanigan's since John^2 were working at Softdisk. It doesn't make for the best business or legal decision, but it's certainly not a surprise to hear. It's kind of his MO. I would find it hard to believe that Zenimax was unaware of what was going on.

dylan604 5y ago
Continuing to do the same thing again and again does not make it right, nor justify the behavior. Stop doing it. Your life becomes much easier. If you don't have self-discipline, then consequences happen. Yeah, it sucks, but dems da breakz. Also, you are not always in control of who your corporate overlords will be. They can be decent, then sell, then new owners are not cool. Happens all the time.
- oarsinsync 5y ago
  Reading this strongly reminds me of the book The Fountainhead, where those who refuse to follow the same playbooks as the majority, are the ones who not only are responsible for helping to drive their respective industries forward, but are persecuted for it. I think it’s fair to call John Carmack a visionary who has moved his industry forward multiple times. I think while some investors and business owners did not benefit (as much as they could have) from his work, the rest of the gaming world absolutely did.
  - olau 5y ago
    "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  I think this depiction of corporate highlights why innovation becomes difficult for larger companies at some point and why good engineers should cut ties from time to time.
- aahortwwy 5y ago
  > Your life becomes much easier. Life hasn't turned out too bad for Carmack.
  - dylan604 5y ago
    I'm sure he's really enjoyed all of those meetings with lawyers and various depositions and what not. There's probably nothing better he could have been doing with that time instead. You're totally right.
    - aahortwwy 5y ago
      He has been and continues to be wildly successful. Maybe he sees those meetings, depositions, and what not as part of the price of that success.
  - filoleg 5y ago
    Fully agreed. While his life would have definitely been much easier if he followed the "reasonable rules", easier != better. And to be fair, I am glad Carmack went for what he thought was the right move vs. him going for the move that he thought would lead him to an easier life. He is one of the very few people in the industry (not just gaming, but technology in general) who manages to move the entire industries forward not once, but many times, and consistently so. All while remaining true to himself, caring about what he thinks matters the most, and not jumping head deep into corporate games just for the sake of it. Maybe I am fanboying a bit here, but after reading Masters of Doom (a biographical piece on the early life of both Johns [Carmack and Romero], how they started ID Software together, and how it all turned out; heavily recommended for everyone here), it feels like I am experiencing an even more exciting sequel to it happening in real life in front of my eyes.
    - registeredcorn 5y ago
      It really is an excellent book! I've worked my way through the audiobook twice. It's so much fun! I can't help but feel terrible for how Tom and Adrian were treated each time I listen to it. :( If I had to wish for one major change in modern game development, it would be for us to get back onto a much, much shorter development schedules. The idea of a extremely popular game being able to be released to the public after only a few months is just such a compelling thing. (It's what I love about game jams!) I realize, to some tiny degree, the technical challenges with modern game development and why things are the way they are, but when you get into this routine of, "Okay guys, we're going to devote 7 years making this thing" it should come as no small surprise when the people financing it have zero incentive to allow any amount of "personality" seep into the final product. I'm not even trying to claim that modern games aren't creative - they're massively creative! - it's just that the sort of tonality...that spirit of "Remember: Games are FUN so please, go have FUN playing our game!!!" is just completely stiffiled and absent. It's like that plucky spirit has been stomped out under the threat of mindbogglingly huge budget requirements, bi-DECADE development cycles, and multi-month crunch times. It just seems like there's no room for indie development to compete at anywhere near the same level as major studios anymore. It's a shame, and I hope it changes.

dylan604 5y ago

Continuing to do the same thing again and again does not make it right, nor justify the behavior. Stop doing it. Your life becomes much easier. If you don't have self-discipline, then consequences happen. Yeah, it sucks, but dems da breakz. Also, you are not always in control of who your corporate overlords will be. They can be decent, then sell, then new owners are not cool. Happens all the time.

oarsinsync 5y ago
Reading this strongly reminds me of the book The Fountainhead, where those who refuse to follow the same playbooks as the majority, are the ones who not only are responsible for helping to drive their respective industries forward, but are persecuted for it. I think it’s fair to call John Carmack a visionary who has moved his industry forward multiple times. I think while some investors and business owners did not benefit (as much as they could have) from his work, the rest of the gaming world absolutely did.
- olau 5y ago
  "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
raxxorrax 5y ago
I think this depiction of corporate highlights why innovation becomes difficult for larger companies at some point and why good engineers should cut ties from time to time.
aahortwwy 5y ago
> Your life becomes much easier. Life hasn't turned out too bad for Carmack.
- dylan604 5y ago
  I'm sure he's really enjoyed all of those meetings with lawyers and various depositions and what not. There's probably nothing better he could have been doing with that time instead. You're totally right.
  - aahortwwy 5y ago
    He has been and continues to be wildly successful. Maybe he sees those meetings, depositions, and what not as part of the price of that success.
- filoleg 5y ago
  Fully agreed. While his life would have definitely been much easier if he followed the "reasonable rules", easier != better. And to be fair, I am glad Carmack went for what he thought was the right move vs. him going for the move that he thought would lead him to an easier life. He is one of the very few people in the industry (not just gaming, but technology in general) who manages to move the entire industries forward not once, but many times, and consistently so. All while remaining true to himself, caring about what he thinks matters the most, and not jumping head deep into corporate games just for the sake of it. Maybe I am fanboying a bit here, but after reading Masters of Doom (a biographical piece on the early life of both Johns [Carmack and Romero], how they started ID Software together, and how it all turned out; heavily recommended for everyone here), it feels like I am experiencing an even more exciting sequel to it happening in real life in front of my eyes.
  - registeredcorn 5y ago
    It really is an excellent book! I've worked my way through the audiobook twice. It's so much fun! I can't help but feel terrible for how Tom and Adrian were treated each time I listen to it. :( If I had to wish for one major change in modern game development, it would be for us to get back onto a much, much shorter development schedules. The idea of a extremely popular game being able to be released to the public after only a few months is just such a compelling thing. (It's what I love about game jams!) I realize, to some tiny degree, the technical challenges with modern game development and why things are the way they are, but when you get into this routine of, "Okay guys, we're going to devote 7 years making this thing" it should come as no small surprise when the people financing it have zero incentive to allow any amount of "personality" seep into the final product. I'm not even trying to claim that modern games aren't creative - they're massively creative! - it's just that the sort of tonality...that spirit of "Remember: Games are FUN so please, go have FUN playing our game!!!" is just completely stiffiled and absent. It's like that plucky spirit has been stomped out under the threat of mindbogglingly huge budget requirements, bi-DECADE development cycles, and multi-month crunch times. It just seems like there's no room for indie development to compete at anywhere near the same level as major studios anymore. It's a shame, and I hope it changes.