8 ms·
Signal for Help
- tyingq 5y agoLooks like finger spelling "B", then "E" in ASL.
- dunefox 5y agoHow is this related to Hackernews? Seems quite OT.
- frosted-flakes 5y agoIf people are interested in it, it's relevant.
- dunefox 5y agoFair enough.
- audray 5y agoThis classifies as language hacking, no?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- southerntofu 5y agoIt's related to security, communication, audio/video calls, and the pandemic. I believe all of these topics are HN favorites.
- martinflack 5y agoAn important trait of startup founders is a decent EQ, and relating to other people. This is interesting news in that area.
- mdp2021 5y agoIntellectual problem: given the current state of affairs, structure a system to help individuals in distress; check current proposals. Preliminary: know the current state of affairs (e.g. growth of domestic violence, correlation with isolation measures). Aside: cultural contexts (Canada, CWF). Non-triviality of the context: this morning this friend of mine had to call an emergency number. The country he was in had structured years ago the workflow as follows: first you talk to an operator, which compiles a form "with your help". Then you wait on hold, until a switchboard tune stops and you talk to the police (as in, "Hello, five minutes ago when I first called somebody was shooting around"). The operator reports being legally bound not to pass any information directly to the police: there is no action if the police does not talk to the caller, and there is no police if you do not spend the preliminary minutes. I am sure a few issues are clear.
- e40 5y agoA video to go along with the article https://reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/qeq0fq/the_message_is_the_same_in_all_languages_signal/ https://reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/qeq0fq/the_m...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- jodrellblank 5y agoLooks impossible, my thumbs don’t bend that way. Hopefully nobody being abused has similar thumbs.
- Arcuru 5y agoI know someone who has that same issue. They started having other wrist/thumb issues, and only realized they had limited range of motion in their thumbs while doing Physical Therapy. The PT didn't help them get more range of motion, just helped reduce some pain they were having.
- MattRix 5y agoReally? You can’t wrap your fingers around your thumb like that? I am not a flexible person and I can do it easily. It’s the same thing as making a fist with your thumb inside it (not usually a good idea!).
- jodrellblank 5y agoLike depicted in that picture, no; close enough to work, probably. I can't do this ( https://openheart.bmj.com/content/openhrt/2/1/e000169/F5.large.jpg https://openheart.bmj.com/content/openhrt/2/1/e000169/F5.lar... ) because the joint at the base of my thumb doesn't bend that way much at all. I can't do this ( https://www.medmd.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Bend-Your-Thumbs.jpg https://www.medmd.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Bend-Your-T... ) because I can't bend the tip of my thumb while keeping my fingers straight. The index and middle finger bend with the thumb tip. I can do what this picture describes as opposition ( http://i2.wp.com/boneandspine.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/thumb-movements.png http://i2.wp.com/boneandspine.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09... ) with a combination of little finger movement and straight thumb or bent thumb and clawed fingers, and so I can make a fist with my thumb rotated around and tip covered by fingers.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- ksaj 5y ago
- zorked 5y agoVaguely related: in Brazil if you call the police and say you want to "order a pizza" they will play along, request your address, and send a police patrol to check on you.
- jagger27 5y agoThis is a common thing for 911 dispatchers to be trained on. If you call 911 and they ask for “police, fire, or ambulance” and you just start having a normal conversation with them they’ll play along, usually with yes or no questions that can be answered with “yeah, my weekend was great thanks!” There’s pretty much no need to say your address either. The police will already have your location from the phone call.
- csw-001 5y agoGood advice - but in my experience working with public safety answering points, the ability to get accurate location data from cell phones and viop lines can be spotty, and depends on a number of systems working correctly. That’s all to say, in general - don’t assume they know where you are, if you can tell them, do (and be very specific about location within the building).
- dan_linder 5y agoDo you happen to have a list of these code words for other countries?
- tata71 5y agoIf it's the emergency number you're calling, and the operator doesn't understand the pizza/repairman etc code, they're poorly trained/suited for the job.
- babyshake 5y agoIf you call 911 and request a pizza, you might be pranking them or you might be under duress. Curious if they have a protocol for differentiating between these. I suppose if you give them your address and you're just joking you would be pretty dumb, not to mention incredibly immature to abuse emergency services.
- Waterluvian 5y agoOne problem with these is that they might be less useful than just shouting for help. If enough people know about the signal for it to be helpful, the abuser may know it too. And what if the abuser knows it and nobody else notices? There’s also a term that bartenders learn. A certain name asked for (I forget). I feel that one might work better because it is targeted knowledge for women and bartenders. Nevertheless, there’s a logical complication here I struggle to reconcile. I’m guessing this is a very well trodden problem space in cryptography.
- sva_ 5y ago> One problem with these is that they might be less useful than just shouting for help. I think this sign was in particular meant to be used while on a video call. An abusive partner may currently not be looking at their victim, so they could do the signal, while making an auditory signal would not work.
- TeMPOraL 5y agoOne potential problem here is that videocalling software usually displays camera input in a corner window/section.
- ketzo 5y agoI think you’re thinking of “Ask for Angela” or an “Angel Shot”: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ask_for_Angela https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ask_for_Angela
- Waterluvian 5y agoThanks for sharing. Yes that’s what I was failing to recall.
- tjoff 5y agoNot sure how the addition of a non-verbal sign increases the risk. The point is that it might be easier than hide than verbally or writing a note etc. So while the risk of course remains it is an added tool that is silent and doesn't require access to anything else.
- mongol 5y agoIs there no other signal for help, to use over long distance?
- sva_ 5y ago...---...
- qsort 5y agoUnironic +1. SOS is still officially recognized as a distress signal, is universally understood across language and cultural barriers, and works well with a variety of signaling methods.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- BrandoElFollito 5y agoI agree. There is also hope that someone may recognize the signal (if they were scouts, or cs students who had that as one of the first tasks, ...). The way you tap it is . . . .. .. .. . . .
- ogogmad 5y agoI didn't know that one. TIL.
- denysvitali 5y agoI hope you're joking. It's literally SOS in morse code, and it's pretty common hearing the sound in movies / series.
- Ansil849 5y ago> I hope you're joking. Why? There, by definition, is always a moment when you learn something. You're not born knowing SOS. At some point in your life you learn of it. To reply to someone who expresses that that this was such a moment with "I hope you're joking" comes off as extremely condescending.
- 0898 5y agoAll these memey distress signals, like asking for “Angela”… are they actually adopted? Or do they just exist on the internet?
- hnlmorg 5y agoI've seen a video posted online of someone ringing the emergency services "ordering a pizza". It was a pretty emotional watch actually because there was no description so it took the viewer longer to realise what was going down than the operator. Really hit home just how hard their job is.
- tdfx 5y agoHave worked in bars and can confirm no one is going to recognize the Angela thing without additional context. It's just a feel-good memey thing.
- chaircher 5y agoThey stop working once everyone knows about them. If your attacker knows your codeword it stops being a codeword
- dredmorbius 5y agoThese are used with varying degrees of regularity in different situations. "Mayday", "SOS", "Securitay", and "Pan pan pan" in aviation and boating. For aviation also 7500, 7600, and 7700. A list of codes used in hospitals, including combative individuals, armed confrontations, bomb threats and the like: https://www.calhospitalprepare.org/sites/main/files/file-attachments/em_survey_supplement_-_other_codes_used.pdf https://www.calhospitalprepare.org/sites/main/files/file-att... For lists of codes used in other contexts (police, subways, ships, air travel: https://www.theclever.com/15-secret-emergency-codes-youre-not-supposed-to-know-about/ https://www.theclever.com/15-secret-emergency-codes-youre-no... Note that without specific training and regular drilling, these are likely to not be especially useful. For communicating to the public a plausible-but-clear explanation, e.g., "police investigation" (usually code for suicide, possibly other death) is used especially in transportation systems. A "police investigation" on a transit line or bridge is frequently a suicide or attempt.
- rozab 5y agoSo if nobody recognises it it's useless, but if everybody recognises it it's also useless?
- 542458 5y agoEh, I think it’s potentially useful even if everybody recognizes it. It’s superficially similar enough to a normal wave hello and fast enough to perform that it could be done surreptitiously (as opposed to frantically waving for help or elaborate pantomime). I’m not sure if it’s useful or just a feel-good thing, but I don’t think us non-domain-experts can reject the former without more info.
- notRobot 5y agoFrom TFA: > Addressing concerns that abusers may become aware of such a widespread online initiative, the Canadian Women's Foundation and other organizations clarified that this signal is not "something that's going to save the day," but rather a tool someone could use to get help.
- eloisant 5y agoI don't think it's useless if everybody recognises it, there are many cases where you can show the sign to someone without it being visible by your abuser (i.e. hidden by your body).
- Ansil849 5y agoI'm having trouble understanding a use-case for this. The point appears to be to use it if you are in a situation where for example your abusive partner is next to you, for example on a video call, and you want to signal on this call (as opposed to on a separate call when your abusive partner is not next to you?) that you need help. This then relies on 1) the people on the other end of the video call recognizing the signal, but also 2) your abuser not recognizing it. This seems extremely unlikely. Am I missing something about its utility?
- softwaredoug 5y agoControlling abusers police how their victims interact with the outside world. So being watched or listened it to on a call is not out of the question. Also consider that revealing the abuse can be life threatening to the victim. How certain can you really be you’re not being overheard? And is even a 1% chance worth your life?
- Ansil849 5y agoYes, I understand this. What I don't understand is the expectation that I outlined above: wherein the abuser does not understand or notice the gesture, but the people on the other end of the line do both notice and understand the gesture. This seems _very_ unlikely, and if the abuser _does_ notice and understand the symbol, will only put the person being abused in more danger. So again, I don't understand the utility of this. As you said: > And is even a 1% chance worth your life? Is the 1% chance that the abuser sees and understands the symbol worth your life?
- jader201 5y agoI think the video call example is a bad example. Someone above linked to a video on Reddit that, I think, shows more likely scenarios where it could be used effectively (though, as stated in other comments, relies on the others knowing the context of the gesture): https://reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/qeq0fq/the_message_is_the_same_in_all_languages_signal/ https://reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/qeq0fq/the_m... Edit: reading some of the comments in the Reddit thread, as the article states, this was started in Canada during the COVID lockdown, so the likely scenario there is that you may give the signal out during work/while video chatting with a friend/relative while the abuser is unobservant but within hearing distance. To your point, this still seems unlikely, but if someone is in an abusive relationship but is still working during lockdowns, I suppose it’s still one way to signal for help.
- themodelplumber 5y agoThat's a good example of fairly localized creativity during COVID. People may criticize the "how are you supposed to know that" aspect but it sounds more like it was part of its own campaign to raise awareness, and in a specific part of the world. If it continues to spread from there, probably all the better.
- AcerbicZero 5y agoIf you’re not blinking SOS in morse code at me, I’m not getting involved.
- toomanybeersies 5y agoOr blinking out "torture", as one POW did during the Vietnam War: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rufnWLVQcKg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rufnWLVQcKg
- dredmorbius 5y agoE.O. Wilson, an entomologist studying ants, describes a "chemical grammar" for communications. Ants use specific chemicals (pheromones), producing odors, for communication. Their signals for food and other sustaining activities are fairly complex and long-lasting, and tend to be specific to a species. Alert signals are comprised of small molecules, are sharp, are not specific to a given species (there may be multiples of these, but they're shared across species), and they spread and disperse below detection threshold quickly. That is, once emitted, the signal permeates through the immediate area quickly, but it's also not long-lasting, so that later-arrivals won't erroniously interpret a danger signal. See: https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(06)01834-3 https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(06)... https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3509_eowilson.html https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3509_eowilson.html https://achievement.org/achiever/edward-o-wilson-ph-d/#interview https://achievement.org/achiever/edward-o-wilson-ph-d/#inter... (I'm finding overviews but not a specific description of the processes / methods.) Audio alerts among other animals seem to be similar. Alarm or threat cries are clear, unambiguous, and broadcast widely. Friend or mating cries, calls, songs, etc., are typically far more complex, specific, and more localised. These are behaviours which have emerged under selective pressure over millions of years. We scream at terror, shout at enemies, and whisper to lovers and children. I'd be very interested to hear of any secret or covert alert calls in nature. Complex or secret help calls are ... probably not especially useful in most cases. Instead, those who are likely to receive a call should be primed to act and verify quickly. Put another way, the method suggested in the article is a form of responsibilty-shifting to the victim, though it's all but certainly not intentionally constructed as such.
- kypro 5y agoIn what situations would someone need to communicate they need help over video? If the abuser is in the room a hand gesture would be quite dangerous and if they’re not voice could be used instead. In situations where the abuser is too close for verbal communication, surely text would be the next safest option? Perhaps there are some situations where only video is available making this necessary, but I can’t think of any video conferencing software which doesn’t also support text messaging. I’d be worried promoting this will either result in people trying to alert others and failing because of a lack of awareness, or people simply misinterpreting someone waving to say hi or bye as a call for help and wasting people time.
- tomcooks 5y agoAngry partner in the other room, you send to someone you trust a video while in the bathroom. If said partner checks your phone you lower the chances of being caught, one can assume you were just waving goodbye or something. Same applies to signalling people outside your window, police or neighbors.