4 ms·

That title doesn't match the content at all. Yes, it's cycling heaven here, and yes, it's fantastic and I wouldn't trade it for any other infrastructure in the

by Vinnl 5y ago

That title doesn't match the content at all. Yes, it's cycling heaven here, and yes, it's fantastic and I wouldn't trade it for any other infrastructure in the world — but of course there are some trade-offs, and this article lists a number of minor downsides.

Ensorceled 5y ago
I was thinking the same as I read the article ... "This actually sounds pretty fucking fantastic"
nend 5y ago
It's a bit of a weird title because it implies the article is going to be a rebuttal against how great the cycling is, but at the same time the phrase "it's not that fantastic" implies the cycling is still a little fantastic as well.
- gigglesupstairs 5y ago
  Not sure but it looks like a case of bad translation. The whole thing - title and content.
9387367 5y ago
Reads as clickbait blogspam for an author promoting their forthcoming book.
onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
Question: at what age does a normal Netherlands person stop biking? I love biking now - but I'm just wondering at what age a normal biker gets too old to bike everywhere daily.
- superice 5y ago
  They don’t. You see elderly people on bikes all the time here. They just happen to have fewer places to go after retirement.
  - treve 5y ago
    Of course many people get too old to bike. My grandmother is 97 and it's probably been over a decade.
    - superice 5y ago
      Sure, some people get too frail, but in general being in physical shape is NOT a requirement to cycling as a means of transport (as opposed to a sport) in the Netherlands. Especially e-bikes are helping out a lot in that regard. The question is a little ridiculous to me to begin with: you are too old once you can’t get the pedals round. If you can move a bike forwards you can participate in Dutch cycling traffic. There is no distinction between the two. EDIT - But just to clarify: many people cycle well into retirement. We’re talking 60-70+ stopping ages over here, easily. EDIT 2 - Here, have some governmental data: https://www.government.nl/binaries/government/documents/reports/2018/04/01/cycling-facts-2018/Cycling+facts+2018.pdf https://www.government.nl/binaries/government/documents/repo.... It doesn’t say anything on bicycle use in older age, but it does show you that average speed goes down by age. Average trip length does not however. In general it’s just an interesting read though.
- dm3 5y ago
  I'll answer for Switzerland which also has a strong bicycling culture. People cycle while they're physically able. I have a neighbour couple who are around 70 and cycle everywhere in the city limits.
- wlamartin 5y ago
  Just some anecdotes from an expat: My landlord is 80+ and cycles everywhere. My parents in law are 75+ and are about to get rid of their car altogether since they either cycle or take public transport. My aunt in law is close to 80 and changed from manual to electric bike a few years ago after a stroke.
  - greggman3 5y ago
    yea. plenty of places in the world where people don't have cars in general and afaik old people get by just fine. Japan does not have good bike infra like the netherlands but the majority of people don't use a car much either
- Someone 5y ago
  Only if they cannot cycle anymore. Elderly cyclists are a point of concern because three quarters of the cyclists dying in traffic accidents are over 60 years old, a quarter over 80 (https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/11/elderly-cyclists-more-likely-to-be-killed-or-injured-on-roads/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/11/elderly-cyclists-more-...) That partly is because of the huge success in making cycling safer for kids and partly because of population aging, but also is seen as not catering enough for this group. Many of bicycle accidents involving the elderly are one-sided.
  - Vinnl 5y ago
    IIRC part of the reason was also the emergence of the electric bicycle, allowing elderly people to cycle for longer and at higher speeds. And I think they expected this to go down some more now that both their riders and the other participants in traffic get used to that.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  My grandfather had 4 hip replacements. Only after the last one (at 85 maybe?) did he become unable to ride a bike. My grandmother at the same age still does. They’ve never even owned a car or license.
- C19is20 5y ago
  Italy: can't believe how many 'old' people are still cycling. Do it until you can't! I got overtaken going up a particularly famous and very steep mountain climb - the cyclist said he was 86. Oh, and he loves his electric bike.
- Vinnl 5y ago
  Generally around when you're too frail to safely stop unexpectedly. Or probably a little after that, just like how people keep driving their cars a bit too long. As an anecdote, my father has trouble walking nowadays - I think getting him to walk one km is ambitious. He does still use an electric bicycle though.
snapetom 5y ago
I think the author's point is lost because she's trying to convey some points that requires a lot of nuance and subtlety, but English is not her first language. Her point is that the hogging of public space by bicyclists is a problem, and that the cause is bicyclists ignoring rules and not thinking about others. That is a universal problem. Here in Seattle, bicyclists think they're beyond reproach. You can't run red lights and hit pedestrians without backlash.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  > Her point is that the hogging of public space by bicyclists is a problem, and that the cause is bicyclists ignoring rules and not thinking about others. That is not my takeaway at all. And I feel like the only way you could think that were if you were already predisposed against bicyclists. The problem the author is talking about is that there is mostly no problem at all, and therefore many people don’t think about how they can share space (because they generally don’t have to).
  - Vinnl 5y ago
    Yep agreed, I didn't think the author's point got lost at all - just that the title didn't match it.
  - tdeck 5y ago
    I had the same reading as you. I think this paragraph makes it clearer: > All these conversations abroad made people reinterpret the street for what it truly is: the remaining space between houses, with all sorts of uses and purposes worthy of discussion. Public space does not necessarily exist to facilitate fast traffic. The author is basically saying that drivers get angry because bikes are slower than cars, and that separating bike and car infrastructure 90% of the time makes drivers see bikes as an intrusion in the shared 10% of the infrastructure, because they're used to their particular speed profile being catered to.
- 8note 5y ago
  I for one see cars run red lights as often as bicycles in seatte, ad trying to cross the road on foot feels like the cars are actively trying to hit you

by Vinnl 5y ago

Ensorceled 5y ago

I was thinking the same as I read the article ... "This actually sounds pretty fucking fantastic"

nend 5y ago

It's a bit of a weird title because it implies the article is going to be a rebuttal against how great the cycling is, but at the same time the phrase "it's not that fantastic" implies the cycling is still a little fantastic as well.

gigglesupstairs 5y ago
Not sure but it looks like a case of bad translation. The whole thing - title and content.

9387367 5y ago

Reads as clickbait blogspam for an author promoting their forthcoming book.

onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago

Question: at what age does a normal Netherlands person stop biking? I love biking now - but I'm just wondering at what age a normal biker gets too old to bike everywhere daily.

superice 5y ago
They don’t. You see elderly people on bikes all the time here. They just happen to have fewer places to go after retirement.
- treve 5y ago
  Of course many people get too old to bike. My grandmother is 97 and it's probably been over a decade.
  - superice 5y ago
    Sure, some people get too frail, but in general being in physical shape is NOT a requirement to cycling as a means of transport (as opposed to a sport) in the Netherlands. Especially e-bikes are helping out a lot in that regard. The question is a little ridiculous to me to begin with: you are too old once you can’t get the pedals round. If you can move a bike forwards you can participate in Dutch cycling traffic. There is no distinction between the two. EDIT - But just to clarify: many people cycle well into retirement. We’re talking 60-70+ stopping ages over here, easily. EDIT 2 - Here, have some governmental data: https://www.government.nl/binaries/government/documents/reports/2018/04/01/cycling-facts-2018/Cycling+facts+2018.pdf https://www.government.nl/binaries/government/documents/repo.... It doesn’t say anything on bicycle use in older age, but it does show you that average speed goes down by age. Average trip length does not however. In general it’s just an interesting read though.
dm3 5y ago
I'll answer for Switzerland which also has a strong bicycling culture. People cycle while they're physically able. I have a neighbour couple who are around 70 and cycle everywhere in the city limits.
wlamartin 5y ago
Just some anecdotes from an expat: My landlord is 80+ and cycles everywhere. My parents in law are 75+ and are about to get rid of their car altogether since they either cycle or take public transport. My aunt in law is close to 80 and changed from manual to electric bike a few years ago after a stroke.
- greggman3 5y ago
  yea. plenty of places in the world where people don't have cars in general and afaik old people get by just fine. Japan does not have good bike infra like the netherlands but the majority of people don't use a car much either
Someone 5y ago
Only if they cannot cycle anymore. Elderly cyclists are a point of concern because three quarters of the cyclists dying in traffic accidents are over 60 years old, a quarter over 80 (https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/11/elderly-cyclists-more-likely-to-be-killed-or-injured-on-roads/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/11/elderly-cyclists-more-...) That partly is because of the huge success in making cycling safer for kids and partly because of population aging, but also is seen as not catering enough for this group. Many of bicycle accidents involving the elderly are one-sided.
- Vinnl 5y ago
  IIRC part of the reason was also the emergence of the electric bicycle, allowing elderly people to cycle for longer and at higher speeds. And I think they expected this to go down some more now that both their riders and the other participants in traffic get used to that.
Aeolun 5y ago
My grandfather had 4 hip replacements. Only after the last one (at 85 maybe?) did he become unable to ride a bike. My grandmother at the same age still does. They’ve never even owned a car or license.
C19is20 5y ago
Italy: can't believe how many 'old' people are still cycling. Do it until you can't! I got overtaken going up a particularly famous and very steep mountain climb - the cyclist said he was 86. Oh, and he loves his electric bike.
Vinnl 5y ago
Generally around when you're too frail to safely stop unexpectedly. Or probably a little after that, just like how people keep driving their cars a bit too long. As an anecdote, my father has trouble walking nowadays - I think getting him to walk one km is ambitious. He does still use an electric bicycle though.

snapetom 5y ago

I think the author's point is lost because she's trying to convey some points that requires a lot of nuance and subtlety, but English is not her first language. Her point is that the hogging of public space by bicyclists is a problem, and that the cause is bicyclists ignoring rules and not thinking about others. That is a universal problem. Here in Seattle, bicyclists think they're beyond reproach. You can't run red lights and hit pedestrians without backlash.

Aeolun 5y ago
> Her point is that the hogging of public space by bicyclists is a problem, and that the cause is bicyclists ignoring rules and not thinking about others. That is not my takeaway at all. And I feel like the only way you could think that were if you were already predisposed against bicyclists. The problem the author is talking about is that there is mostly no problem at all, and therefore many people don’t think about how they can share space (because they generally don’t have to).
- Vinnl 5y ago
  Yep agreed, I didn't think the author's point got lost at all - just that the title didn't match it.
- tdeck 5y ago
  I had the same reading as you. I think this paragraph makes it clearer: > All these conversations abroad made people reinterpret the street for what it truly is: the remaining space between houses, with all sorts of uses and purposes worthy of discussion. Public space does not necessarily exist to facilitate fast traffic. The author is basically saying that drivers get angry because bikes are slower than cars, and that separating bike and car infrastructure 90% of the time makes drivers see bikes as an intrusion in the shared 10% of the infrastructure, because they're used to their particular speed profile being catered to.
8note 5y ago
I for one see cars run red lights as often as bicycles in seatte, ad trying to cross the road on foot feels like the cars are actively trying to hit you