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Another thing I only noticed when I visited Amsterdam - it's scary for pedestrians. I love cycling, been cycling for 25+ years, including commuting to my offic

• alistairSH 5y ago
  That wasn’t at all my experience when I visited. Yes, some paths in the tourist area were crowded, but at no time did I feel unsafe. Add in the street car/trolley and easy ability to cycle out of the tourist district and it was pretty awesome, IMO.
• airza 5y ago
  Walking in Amsterdam isn't my favorite; as you have alluded to the cyclists there have long since grown tired of stoned tourists wandering into the bike lane and don't yield in the same way as in other cities. But compared to the US, where every street crossing requires dashing across 4-8 lanes of traffic in the 20 seconds allotted to me by the Car Gods... there is no comparison in terms of subjective or objective danger.
  • deleted 5y ago
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• easytiger 5y ago
  100%. As a pedestrian Amsterdam is genuinely awful. I've been many times and nearly been taken out by cyclists and trams. Ebikes are causing a big rise in incidents too. There is no sane or remotely cohesive design to layouts and few curbs and so on
  • dtech 5y ago
    If you are being taking out by trams of all things you are not paying attention to the road layout and markings. Probably similar with bike lanes. People in Amsterdam have very little tolerance for tourists walking in bike lanes because it happens so much. This sounds like someone complaining about being razed by cars while strolling in the middle of the street.
    • easytiger 5y ago
      In an alternate reality where cyclists stick dogmatically to their allocated space that might be true. Outside of Centraal is a total mess.
• davedx 5y ago
  Plus don’t forget the tramlines and the roads and the canals. Amsterdam is sure exciting to walk around :)
• almeria 5y ago
  Another thing I only noticed when I visited Amsterdam - it's scary for pedestrians. Compared to what? Los Angeles? Cairo? Less sarcastically: I get your point, but it's a tradeoff. It's a beautifully car-free (and just plain beautiful and eminently livable) city otherwise. Yes, you do have to be careful about the bikes (as one must with cars, buses, and trucks, motorbikes and scooters just about anywhere else) -- but wherever you go, you pick your battles.
  • mathgenius 5y ago
    I find traffic in LA is extremely chilled. For example, on the smaller roads turning cars yield to pedestrians always (at least in the more affluent areas). This is pretty unique. I've lived in big cities in four different countries and LA traffic is the most relaxed i've found anywhere.
    • gomox 5y ago
      Well, they know they're not getting anywhere anytime soon, so why rush? :)
    • almeria 5y ago
      Given that the carless are second-class citizens in LA -- and that this is one of the most obvious and ever-present facts of life in basically every city that made the ill-fated decision to follow the Los Angeles development "model" -- The first-class citizens might as well take pity on them, after all.
  • dazc 5y ago
    Ha, well pick your battle with an angry car driver and he'll probably shout, gesticulate and then drive away. Do the same with an angry cyclist and the outcome can be somewhat more severe.
    • addicted 5y ago
      Or if you’re in the US the car driver will pull out a gun and shoot you. https://abcnews.go.com/US/disconcerting-rise-road-rage-shootings-resulting-death-injury/story?id=78181165 https://abcnews.go.com/US/disconcerting-rise-road-rage-shoot... > So far this year, as of June 7, a person has been killed or injured in a suspected road rage shooting on average every 18 hours in the United States
• felle 5y ago
  I've lived in Amsterdam for 20 years now and I don't know a single street outside of the canals where the pedestrian path is on the same level as the bike lane. Apart from the color distinction, the pedestrian path is also raised from the street level practically everywhere except for the canals where the border is marked by white lines and bollards every couple meters.
  • __m 5y ago
    i lived in Amsterdam for 3 days and noticed places where they are on the same level. Are you sure you were paying attention?
    • sufehmi 5y ago
      Exactly. Being new to the place, we tend to notice things that other people already took for granted.
    • lovemenot 5y ago
      Isn't it likely your parent has seen a lot more than you? Were you along a canal? Or perhaps those places you noticed were exceptional in the extreme. Presumably you wouldn't really know after such a short stay.
      • bane 5y ago
        Canals in Amsterdam aren't extreme or rare.
  • addicted 5y ago
    Tourists routinely confuse those canal bike lanes for sidewalks and then complain about feeling unsafe around bikes in Amsterdam.
    • elliekelly 5y ago
      My first time in Amsterdam I was terribly confused by the bike lanes. We’d never seen an entirely separate and dedicated bike lane like that so we walked in it. It was a Sunday morning so fortunately there wasn’t much traffic but eventually an exasperated local on his bike stopped us and explained that we were basically waltzing around in the middle of the road and could we please stop. He was perfectly polite and his information was quite helpful but I got the sense he had given the same lecture many times before. Unless someone explains it to you, though, I’m not really sure how anyone could be expected to know?
• nikanj 5y ago
  I’d still much rather share the road with cycles than cars
  • daddylongstroke 5y ago
    For sure, and I'd much rather share the 'road' with horses, mules and goats rather than cars or cycles. :-D
    • tonyedgecombe 5y ago
      The pollution from horses, mules and goats is pretty gross though.
      • sufehmi 5y ago
        But but it's all 100% organic !!
• locallost 5y ago
  I've been there and don't remember that. But I did hear this complaint about other cities and it always struck me as odd. People have no issues standing on the sidewalk as cars whiz around them and they feel safe. A bike going very fast in its own lane next to you is most of the time slower than a car and about 100 times lighter. And thus at least so much less dangerous. People have a right to feel whatever they want, but the numbers show it's a lot safer to be a pedestrian in a bike friendly city than a car friendly city.
  • civilized 5y ago
    I think the curb makes a big difference.
    • Kye 5y ago
      In perception, maybe. A curb doesn't slow a car down enough to not end your life, and it's much easier to do even for a driver trying to stay in their lane.
      • civilized 5y ago
        I disagree. Tactile barriers like curbs and even rumble strips provide real security because they are such effective signals to both sides. Pedestrians would be much more afraid if cars only had to stay in painted lines and people had to walk right beside them.
        • locallost 5y ago
          At this point it's no longer particularly newsworthy to write a car lost control and leveled three people on a bus stop. It happens all the time, it even happened on the bus stop I frequently used 20 years ago. And bike lanes are already segregated with at least paint so that's already a signal. People just need to get used to it, which is hard initially when all you know is cars and walking.
          • 5y ago
• Vinnl 5y ago
  Note that the "cycling heaven" the title refers to is the Netherlands in general. The Amsterdam city centre is probably one of the worst cycling experiences in the Netherlands due to the sheer number of people needing to share the limited space. Still vastly preferable over having all those people use cars though, and I'm sure outside of the centre it's much better.
  • sufehmi 5y ago
    This is the first comment with an explanation that makes actual sense. Thank you.
• kevingadd 5y ago
  Maybe it's different where you live, but in every American city I've visited I have that experience with cars almost hitting me instead.
  • refurb 5y ago
    I’ve lived in urban cores in the US and never felt like that.
    • Kye 5y ago
      It didn't feel like that walking through downtown Atlanta, but it did walking through every smaller Georgia city I've walked in.
• mindvirus 5y ago
  My feelings of big cities: NYC - cars, bikes and pedestrians all feel like they are the most important. Paris - there are no rules, and someone will steal your bike anyway. Amsterdam - bikes are on top and know it, cars and pedestrians can fight for the scraps. Germany - cars are king. Some pedestrian crossings you even have to wait two lights to make it all the way across the road.
  • bruce343434 5y ago
    Germany isn't a big city afaik, did you mean Berlin?
    • mindvirus 5y ago
      Oof yes, was thinking of Berlin and Munich.
  • Hamuko 5y ago
    >Paris - there are no rules, and someone will steal your bike anyway. I'm still amazed about the roundabout around Arc de Triomphe.
    • throwaway894345 5y ago
      I remember watching tourists try to cross it with their children, not realizing that they are meant to cross underground (in fairness, the signage was very hard to find even for those of us who knew there was an underground crossing).
• nanis 5y ago
  > I hope the situation will become better for the pedestrians. It will not. In the NYC metro area (including Northern NJ), pedestrians are constantly in danger of being hit by both cyclists and people on powered bicycles (which are motorcycles for all practical purposes). I have seen these people hit people and on one occasion one of them kicked a stroller. If anyone says anything, they face further harassment: In one instance, one rider lifted her bicycle and hit me and left. Delivery drivers tend to be better than others on the sidewalk, but then you watch them go the wrong way at 30 MPH with the giant battery pack and you feel for the driver who might have a close encounter or worse. Sidewalks are for pedestrians. PS: I notice that this thread seems to be full of people who claim standing on the sidewalk watching cars whizz by is scary. It isn't. Cars don't routinely jump the curb, cars don't routinely drive on sidewalks, most drivers are quick to yield to pedestrians. On the other hand, even if you are crossing at the walk sign, there will be at least four bike riders trying to run the red light through a hundred pedestrians at 42nd & 8th.
  • namdnay 5y ago
    The problem isn’t the cyclists or the pedestrians, it’s that they are both combined to less than 2m of space on the side of the road, the rest being reserved for the almighty automobile.
  • addicted 5y ago
    Cars routinely kill people unlike bicycles. The only reason you’re more afraid of bikes than cars is because you’re socialized to accept cars.
    • bane 5y ago
      I've personally been hit by more bikes than cars, even suffering long-term injury in once case.
      • addicted 5y ago
        Well, that’s not surprising. Bike lanes usually adjoin sidewalks, as opposed to car lanes, which usually have some buffer. But also because if you were hit by a car the likelihood of you being around to write a comment about it would be extremely low.
• c0llision 5y ago
  I lived in Amsterdam for 5 years. I'm not entirely sure what your talking about with the pedestrian path being beside the cycle lane. They are normally on two different levels, there is a curb. I also never found it that dangerous to be a pedestrian. I have seen many many tourists walk in the cycle lanes though, or step into them without looking, and almost get hit. Honestly to me it kinda sounds like you were walking in the bike lane. I think there is some learning curve in getting used to all of the bikes around, but it really isn't dangerous. Also I can confirm that in the 5 years I lived there I was never hit by a cyclist. however when a family member came to visit, they walked right out into a bike lane without looking and almost did get hit.
  • sufehmi 5y ago
    Exactly. Why didn't they stepped unknowingly into car's lane - but did so into bike's lane? It's all in the design.
• __m 5y ago
  Ironically they complain when they have to share the road with those inconsiderate car drivers.
• sktrdie 5y ago
  I live in Amsterdam coming from Italy and have lived also in states. I have the opposite experience. Roads in the center are busy but everybody rides at slow speeds even cars and small motorcycles. They all share the canal roads with pedestrians and everyone is careful about each other. This is also the main thing other countries don’t realize. Bikes here are slow. They’re not meant to be performant. They’re meant to bring you slowly (but steadily) from A to B. Also I much prefer a busy road full of cyclist with little sidewalk, than a busy road full of cars with dedicate sidewalk. All the noise and smog makes the walking plain terrible and borderline unhealthy.
• Gregam3 5y ago
  I've lived in Amsterdam for 2 years now, and whilst the "fear" of the cyclists has long worn off, there is still considerable inconvenience as a pedestrian. Many busy areas have a pavement only wide enough for 1 or 2 people at a time, meaning you constantly have to walk in the road and compete with the cars and bikes. It can be really quite unpleasant. That being said in order to maintain the beautiful traditional architecture and layout of the city centre sacrifices must be made, and as a cyclist I also feel the pain of being blocked by pedestrians. Everyone suffers a little bit, which from what I've heard seems to be a dominant Dutch political philosophy reflected in its coalition governments.
• Kye 5y ago
  I like my odds better being hit by a bicycle than by a car. Also, I wouldn't have to beg people not to bankrupt me by calling an ambulance.
• addicted 5y ago
  Is there any other metric where people suggest that the place that has an order of magnitude lower deaths is more unsafe? NL has about 2.6 pedestrian deaths per million compared to the US’s 19 or so (which must have only gone up since the pandemic). And this is not even adjusting for the significantly greater walking that’s done in the NL.
• bamboozled 5y ago
  After living in Amsterdam for a while you just get used to it. You learn to look left and right before stepping into a path or road.
• ectopod 5y ago
  Have you tried walking in Birmingham? Some of the "cycle lanes" here are just a pavement with a sign. There is no separation from pedestrians. And the majority of cyclists (especially Just Eat delivery riders) seem to think it is legal to ride on every pavement. Amsterdam is way better.
  • sufehmi 5y ago
    ....and that's why I wrote "Birmingham canals" Have you tried it? They're truly a wonderful place for cyclists. (well at least back in 2001, no idea how is it now)
• mattlondon 5y ago
  It is the same in London. The dedicated bike lanes contain legions of fast moving cyclists. The difference between cars is that cyclists - as a general rule - totally ignore any rules. Pedestrian crossing? Pah! Rules are for others! Instead scream obscenities at the pedestrian as you weave past and around them (at <10cm distance) for having the temerity of slowing you down when they are legitimately crossing the cycle path. A cyclist was recently prosecuted in London for killing a pedestrian when they drove into them at high speed after shouting at them to get out of the way failed to work... There must be loads of other non-fatal collisions that don't make the news TL;Dr - During in rush hour it can be hard to cross the cycle lanes, but roads are fine. Cars generally do not try to "go around you" at very close distance when you are a pedestrian, but cyclists do.
  • _Wintermute 5y ago
    Your anecdote goes against pretty much every study that shows motorists break the rules far more commonly than cyclists - in addition to the fact they kill multiple people every day.
    • McP 5y ago
      Which studies? You say "the rules" - I suspect it varies a lot by rule. Speeding? Yep, drivers are going to slip above the limit unless they're very careful, whereas you have to be a very capable athlete to do that as a cyclist. Running a red light or going on the pavement? I'm pretty sure cyclists break these far more often.
      • _Wintermute 5y ago
        I don't understand your point, of course different road users break different rules, they have different rules. You can't speed on a bicycle as there's no requirement for a speedometer. Motorists are less likely to be fined for driving without lights are they're always present and largely automatic, you can't illegally park your bicycle on the pavement in London as it doesn't apply. https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists-break-far-fewer-road-rules-than-motorists-finds-new-video-study/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists... https://whyy.org/articles/cyclists-violate-traffic-law-no-more-than-drivers-new-data-shows/ https://whyy.org/articles/cyclists-violate-traffic-law-no-mo...
• bane 5y ago
  As somebody who's been hit a few times by cyclists, one time suffering long-term injury to my elbow, I feel like I've grown pretty attuned to getting out of their way. Yet in Amsterdam I kept getting belled, yelled at, or pushed. The busier parts of Amsterdam along people's commute are really quite scary as a pedestrian, there's often not enough room for 2 people to comfortable stand side-by-side without getting a bell or a curse from overpacked bikes on similarly narrow bike lanes bleeding out from their designated lanes. In some of the narrower streets there often isn't even place for pedestrians to walk separated from cars and bikes, but bikes will act as if the entire area is theres. After a few days there I finally started to get the system. Because some areas have sidewalks and bike lanes at the same level, I noticed cyclists will often use the sidewalks to pass slower bikes. I realized then that just like in any other big city, you have to stand up for yourself and when a cyclist is on a pedestrian right-of-way and decides to get up in your face, you're completely within your rights to push back and kindly show them the edges of the bike lane they've left. It reminded me a bit of figuring out how to get around NYC. Outside of the cramped shared spaces in Amsterdam the aggression levels are understandably much lower and the separation between bikes and pedestrians is more manageable, and I never once had an issue elsewhere in the Netherlands.
  • TheDong 5y ago
    > As somebody who's been hit a few times by cyclists, one time suffering long-term injury to my elbow, I feel like I've grown pretty attuned to getting out of their way I feel like getting hit by cyclists a few times does not mean you're more attuned to getting out of their way, but rather attuned to either walking in bike-lanes or just totally not paying attention. Or unlucky. Normally I'd say just unlucky, but.... I don't think the attitude of "you're completely within your rights to push back and kindly show them the edges of the bike lane" shows a winning strategy for "getting out of their way". The reality is that we're all travelers within the cities we live in and visit, we all have places we want to get, and most of us do not want to interfere with each other negatively. "pushing back" is not the way you cultivate that, and not what most pedestrians or cyclists expect.
    • bane 5y ago
• Aeolun 5y ago
  Pedestrians in Amsterdam (especially the tourists) feel like they own the street and can just step every which way without looking first. As a cyclist just trying to get from point A to B at my default speed of 20km/h it’s immensely annoying when one of them suddenly turns onto the street forcing me to brake like a madman (and then build up all that speed again).
  • sufehmi 5y ago
    Definitely not me.