12 ms·

Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

144 points by gzer0 5y ago

the-dude 5y ago
Related : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28943234 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28943234
fny 5y ago
Can someone provide some color on why a state actor would advertise such a feat? Now that this is public, I imagine Tesla can and likely will work to block access.
- cinntaile 5y ago
  The access is already blocked, it says in the article that they had to decrypt the data in the data-storage system. It's not like Tesla can prevent a state actor from having access anyway, that's just a law away.
- kjaftaedi 5y ago
  They are using it in court cases, so it would not be a secret anyway. The issue was that Tesla was only providing certain data that was being asked for. You wouldn't know that it would be possible to ask for more information, unless you knew they were collecting it. Now they know Tesla has this information they should be able to get it from them regardless if they have to decrypt it themselves or not. (Unless Tesla decides to stop collecting data for some reason.)
  - ajross 5y ago
    > You wouldn't know that it would be possible to ask for more information, unless you knew they were collecting it. Only if Tesla purjured themselves during discovery. That's not the way court cases work. You can ask "Do you guys record the accelerometer data anywhere else but on the MCU?" and they have to answer truthfully. What you write here mostly amounts to a conspiracy theory. You're taking the idea that Tesla is "hiding something nefarious" as a prior and then taking evidence that their storage was reverse engineered as evidence for that prior. But that's not how engineering works either.
    - adfrhgeaq5hy 5y ago
      We know for a fact Tesla is doing something nefarious, i.e. the self driving scam. But I suppose Tesla isn't hiding anything nefarious. Most of their malfeasance is plain to see.
      - tenuousemphasis 5y ago
        As someone who actually purchased FSD and has yet to receive it, it's not a scam. It's just a really hard problem that I think Tesla will solve before anyone else.
        lazide 5y ago
        If someone promises you’ll have it any day now, so you pay them a lot of money, but they delay it years and years - and you note it’s a really hard problem - at what point is it fraud? Most legal precedent I’ve seen says a lot less time than they’ve already delayed it, frankly.
        ximeng 5y ago
        There are plenty of videos on Youtube showing the state and rate of progress of self-driving. It's clear it's got a long way to go but is improving quickly. Everyone knows that Elon Musk's twitter is not a reliable indicator of feature release dates.
        adfrhgeaq5hy 5y ago
        >It's clear it's got a long way to go but is improving quickly. First part yes, second part no. It has been in development since at least 2015 and still drives straight into walls. Meanwhile Waymo and Cruze are putting down tens of thousands of miles between interventions.
        ximeng 5y ago
        You can see the same route being driven better as new betas come out. There's just not the same openness from Waymo and Cruze as Tesla which has vehicles out there in varied conditions able to be recorded by members of the public.
  - specialist 5y ago
    > You wouldn't know that it would be possible to ask for more information, unless you knew they were collecting it. Totally. I've played this game with FOIA (public records requests). It's exhausting. Of course they had the data. But as a private citizen, I had to prove they had the data before I could request it.
- tpmx 5y ago
  Bragging/national pride. NL things.
csours 5y ago
Disclaimer: I work for a Tesla competitor. To combat fundamental attribution error, whenever you read an article about Tesla, try replacing the word 'Tesla' with your least favorite car or consumer product company. 'Brand X' has a bunch of data about accidents, and they are motivated to not share all of it with authorities. When they do share data they are motivated to share the data that presents them in the best light. How would it feel if there was data about a crash you were involved in that you could not get access to?
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  It’s a good question, because in reality it depends on where the data is going. E.g. in China they don’t trust parents with data on the gender of their child from ultrasounds due to the prevalence of sex-selective abortions. In other countries there are parties about the data. Data is always in a cultural context.
- mettamage 5y ago
  Ohhh, I think this can be a generalized life hack! Thanks! First extension I see: do this with people :D
  - birdman3131 5y ago
    The issue with this is often there are reasons a person/manufacturer are more or less liked than others. Sometimes those reasons even matter.
    - csours 5y ago
      For sure. It's not a magic bullet. This is one of the hardest problems because it's so hard to see and reason clearly.
- driverdan 5y ago
  > How would it feel if there was data about a crash you were involved in that you could not get access to? I'd be angry that data was recorded in the first place. No data should be recorded without the driver's explicit consent.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> The vehicles also record speed, accelerator pedal position, steering wheel angle and brake usage, and depending on how the vehicle is used, that data can be stored for over a year. Tesla really seems to have an extreme amount of personal data capture combined with always-on remote access. It’s fascinating to watch people swear off Amazon Echo and delete their Facebook over privacy concerns but then proudly drive around in a vehicle that records everything, stores everything, and gives opaque data access to the parent company. In this case, a parent company with a reputation for bending the rules to suit their needs. Really goes to show how much the computing privacy debate is a matter of brand loyalties and each company’s position on the hype cycle more than anything else.
- mehrdada 5y ago
  While Tesla knows more info about how you use or operate the car, the big piece that matters to your privacy is arguable the vehicle location and that is not at all unique to Tesla. Many (most?) vehicles produced in the last decade have a GSM modem that pretty much continuously leaks your data at least to the cellular networks, and likely the vehicle manufacturer/operator. I used to physically remove the modem from my cars were possible.
  - novok 5y ago
    Why did you stop if you 'used' to do it?
    - mehrdada 5y ago
      I cannot do it on Teslas. (Or at least the trade off is undesirable)
- capableweb 5y ago
  I agree with your general comment, but I don't think any of those things can be classified as "personal data". How are you gonna identify a user based on values from those parameters? GDPR, while not perfect, describes "personal data" to be: > The data subjects are identifiable if they can be directly or indirectly identified, especially by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or one of several special characteristics, which expresses the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, commercial, cultural or social identity of these natural persons. https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/personal-data/ https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/personal-data/
tenuousemphasis 5y ago
>"That makes it interesting, because who is responsible for the following distance: the car or the driver?" said NFI investigator Aart Spek. That's easy. The driver sets the autopilot follow distance.
- lazide 5y ago
  And if it doesn’t follow the setting, either due to a bug or misinterpreting something (bad sensor, bad sensor reading)?
  - speedgoose 5y ago
    It's the driver fault to not detect the event and to not take control, press the brake pedal, as far as I know. When you engage the adaptive cruise control on any car brand, you are still very much responsible to not crash in the front car.
    - lazide 5y ago
      Pretty sure there are some civil litigators out there that disagree, which is the point of the article?
aeharding 5y ago
Car crashes are taken very seriously in The Netherlands. It's refreshing to hear investigation into systemic problems vs personal responsibility regarding crashes, common in many other countries (see link). https://youtu.be/Ra_0DgnJ1uQ?t=209 https://youtu.be/Ra_0DgnJ1uQ?t=209
- Aachen 5y ago
  To save others from having to pass a cookie wall to even see what you're talking about, the link is (predictably) from Not Just Bikes: why there are fewer vehicles crashing into buildings in the Netherlands versus USA.
- dddw 5y ago
  I heard on Dutch news Tesla shares the data anyway if there is a crash involved.
malermeister 5y ago
How is this amount of data collection GDPR compatible?
- Aachen 5y ago
  Claim "legitimate interest", wait for someone to bother with a lawsuit, profit in the meantime for many years while the fine can be at most a few % (I think max 4%?) of turnover in a single year, and that's only if you lose badly. Not saying this is actually illegal, just if it is then this is probably the reasoning. One could design a drinking game around illegal things that just nobody bothers to enforce. Related: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_is_nine-tenths_of_the_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_is_nine-tenths_of... (basically it's up to the victim to bother with legal work and proving things)
beezischillin 5y ago
It looks to me like Tesla's an AI company masquerading as a car maker with the real goal to take in as much data as necessary for their various AI projects to succeed.
- ctvo 5y ago
  Or an explanation that doesn't require such giant leaps: they want to capture as much data as possible in case they ever need it and know there's nothing stopping them, so why not.
  - mrshadowgoose 5y ago
    I'm not really sure where the giant leaps are. Fact 1: Tesla is attempting to develop a self-driving system that is based on machine learning. Fact 2: Training machine learning systems requires training data. Having large amounts of real training data is highly desirable. So a single step? I'm sure that Tesla also benefits from being able to defend against false claims that would tarnish their image[1], but please don't be disingenuous about their machine learning goals. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/01/08/tesla-brakes/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/01/08/tes...
    - beezischillin 5y ago
      I’m not going to deny that their cars are standout and that they sell well, if you wanted to collect a lot of data you need a good and hip product to piggyback onto. But I don’t necessarily think the car is the end goal. If they manage to crack autonomous driving fully first thanks to collecting all that data it will be such a product that it makes the car irrelevant and it will genuinely change the course of history. Of course that’s just my gut feeling about it. It’s not all that unlikely if you look at the extent of what Silicon Valley is willing to go to just to show you ads, from creating the world’s most popular smart phone OS to a giant video sharing site to voice assistants to pioneering vr to creating the world’s most popular web browser and I could go on :)
    - ctvo 5y ago
raylad 5y ago
The paper this article is based on: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355202701_Reverse_engineering_and_evaluation_of_Tesla_vehicle_logs https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355202701_Reverse_e...
NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
What new cars (or types of new cars) are the most privacy-friendly? No data connections, no logging, as hackable as possible
- fy20 5y ago
  Probably nothing that can be sold in the EU or North America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall
  - NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
    I should have specified, I'm in the U.S. Maybe then it's become a game of gutting the modem (sadly).
indymike 5y ago
How long until someone in law enforcement decides to just ticket all the speeders who have a Tesla?
gkfasdfasdf 5y ago
I don't have a link handy, but WSJ reported that China does not allow high ranking officials to drive Teslas because of the potential of leaking location data etc.
a_paddy 5y ago
If they have decrypted the data then this is a story with much bigger repercussions. What they may have done is decoded the data from the log files, which could have been in a proprietary or obfuscated format.
GeorgeTirebiter 5y ago
I'm not sure folks understand the comm arch in a Tesla. CAN probably still is the main way data are slogged around between ECUs (this info is five years old). CAN works by broadcasting data values at some periodic rate (1 PPS, 10 PPS, 100 PPS usually) and there is no 'publish/subscribe' except that all data are 'published' and any ECU can listen. What the other ECU does with the data, the originator doesn't know. If one of those ECUs listening is the 'gateway' then it can pluck off the main CAN bus anything it likes, and store it for as long as it likes, and upload whatever it wants. New GW FW can be OTA loaded to save and upload different types of data. In Teslas, there are two main CAN busses: the regular one and the 'secure' one that does the brakes and other safety stuff. There is NO connection between the two; but there is a secured path where the gateway can listen & get data from the secure one. The point here is that vehicle safety CAN bus is likely unhackable remotely, as there simply is no RF path writing onto that bus. (all bets are off if you have the vehicle, physically). I believe all previous exploits have been fixed. And one more thing: ECUs have some amount of on-board flash that is used during a crash/power loss scenario. The "dump important stuff to flash" CAN command causes the ECU to take an NMI-style interrupt and do it. Also, if the ECU's own power monitor notices the ECU is about to lose power, there is enough energy storage on board to operate for maybe a few hundred ms. The important stuff is saved. Every ECU must have a way to OTA its code. E V E R Y O N E, including some door lock or whatever (essentially LIN to CAN gatewaying). There are no, as in ZERO, exceptions to this rule. (or, there weren't as of five years ago, ymmv)
- amelius 5y ago
  > If one of those ECUs listening is the 'gateway' then it can pluck off the main CAN bus anything it likes Except if there is some kind of encryption, I suppose.
- jdsully 5y ago
  If every ECU has OTA update capability then how could the secure bus possibly be air gapped? You could attack it remotely via OTA updates to an ECU on that bus.
  - 05 5y ago
campuscodi 5y ago
lol... this is not a Reuters "exclusive" We had this on The Record half a day before them: https://therecord.media/dutch-forensic-lab-decrypts-teslas-driving-safety-data-and-finds-a-wealth-of-information/ https://therecord.media/dutch-forensic-lab-decrypts-teslas-d... modern-day journalism, smh
driverdan 5y ago
Are there any current or upcoming electric four wheel vehicles that aren't a privacy nightmare?
- novok 5y ago
  Unfortunately, the new gas vehicles being sold today are also privacy nightmares, just look closely.
  - userbinator 5y ago
    I think the point is that there's plenty of older "non-connected" vehicles, but they're not EVs. If you want an EV it will have to be a newer one. (Obviously I'm excluding all the non-street-legal "EVs" like golf carts and the like, as well as the truly antique and rare EVs that did exist around a century ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Electric_vehicles_introduced_in_the_20th_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Electric_vehicles_int... )
judith444 5y ago
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144 points by gzer0 5y ago

Related : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28943234 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28943234

fny 5y ago

Can someone provide some color on why a state actor would advertise such a feat? Now that this is public, I imagine Tesla can and likely will work to block access.

cinntaile 5y ago
The access is already blocked, it says in the article that they had to decrypt the data in the data-storage system. It's not like Tesla can prevent a state actor from having access anyway, that's just a law away.
kjaftaedi 5y ago
They are using it in court cases, so it would not be a secret anyway. The issue was that Tesla was only providing certain data that was being asked for. You wouldn't know that it would be possible to ask for more information, unless you knew they were collecting it. Now they know Tesla has this information they should be able to get it from them regardless if they have to decrypt it themselves or not. (Unless Tesla decides to stop collecting data for some reason.)
- ajross 5y ago
  > You wouldn't know that it would be possible to ask for more information, unless you knew they were collecting it. Only if Tesla purjured themselves during discovery. That's not the way court cases work. You can ask "Do you guys record the accelerometer data anywhere else but on the MCU?" and they have to answer truthfully. What you write here mostly amounts to a conspiracy theory. You're taking the idea that Tesla is "hiding something nefarious" as a prior and then taking evidence that their storage was reverse engineered as evidence for that prior. But that's not how engineering works either.
  - adfrhgeaq5hy 5y ago
    We know for a fact Tesla is doing something nefarious, i.e. the self driving scam. But I suppose Tesla isn't hiding anything nefarious. Most of their malfeasance is plain to see.
    - tenuousemphasis 5y ago
      As someone who actually purchased FSD and has yet to receive it, it's not a scam. It's just a really hard problem that I think Tesla will solve before anyone else.
      - lazide 5y ago
        If someone promises you’ll have it any day now, so you pay them a lot of money, but they delay it years and years - and you note it’s a really hard problem - at what point is it fraud? Most legal precedent I’ve seen says a lot less time than they’ve already delayed it, frankly.
        ximeng 5y ago
        There are plenty of videos on Youtube showing the state and rate of progress of self-driving. It's clear it's got a long way to go but is improving quickly. Everyone knows that Elon Musk's twitter is not a reliable indicator of feature release dates.
        adfrhgeaq5hy 5y ago
        >It's clear it's got a long way to go but is improving quickly. First part yes, second part no. It has been in development since at least 2015 and still drives straight into walls. Meanwhile Waymo and Cruze are putting down tens of thousands of miles between interventions.
        ximeng 5y ago
        You can see the same route being driven better as new betas come out. There's just not the same openness from Waymo and Cruze as Tesla which has vehicles out there in varied conditions able to be recorded by members of the public.
- specialist 5y ago
  > You wouldn't know that it would be possible to ask for more information, unless you knew they were collecting it. Totally. I've played this game with FOIA (public records requests). It's exhausting. Of course they had the data. But as a private citizen, I had to prove they had the data before I could request it.
tpmx 5y ago
Bragging/national pride. NL things.

csours 5y ago

Disclaimer: I work for a Tesla competitor. To combat fundamental attribution error, whenever you read an article about Tesla, try replacing the word 'Tesla' with your least favorite car or consumer product company. 'Brand X' has a bunch of data about accidents, and they are motivated to not share all of it with authorities. When they do share data they are motivated to share the data that presents them in the best light. How would it feel if there was data about a crash you were involved in that you could not get access to?

mensetmanusman 5y ago
It’s a good question, because in reality it depends on where the data is going. E.g. in China they don’t trust parents with data on the gender of their child from ultrasounds due to the prevalence of sex-selective abortions. In other countries there are parties about the data. Data is always in a cultural context.
mettamage 5y ago
Ohhh, I think this can be a generalized life hack! Thanks! First extension I see: do this with people :D
- birdman3131 5y ago
  The issue with this is often there are reasons a person/manufacturer are more or less liked than others. Sometimes those reasons even matter.
  - csours 5y ago
    For sure. It's not a magic bullet. This is one of the hardest problems because it's so hard to see and reason clearly.
driverdan 5y ago
> How would it feel if there was data about a crash you were involved in that you could not get access to? I'd be angry that data was recorded in the first place. No data should be recorded without the driver's explicit consent.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> The vehicles also record speed, accelerator pedal position, steering wheel angle and brake usage, and depending on how the vehicle is used, that data can be stored for over a year. Tesla really seems to have an extreme amount of personal data capture combined with always-on remote access. It’s fascinating to watch people swear off Amazon Echo and delete their Facebook over privacy concerns but then proudly drive around in a vehicle that records everything, stores everything, and gives opaque data access to the parent company. In this case, a parent company with a reputation for bending the rules to suit their needs. Really goes to show how much the computing privacy debate is a matter of brand loyalties and each company’s position on the hype cycle more than anything else.

mehrdada 5y ago
While Tesla knows more info about how you use or operate the car, the big piece that matters to your privacy is arguable the vehicle location and that is not at all unique to Tesla. Many (most?) vehicles produced in the last decade have a GSM modem that pretty much continuously leaks your data at least to the cellular networks, and likely the vehicle manufacturer/operator. I used to physically remove the modem from my cars were possible.
- novok 5y ago
  Why did you stop if you 'used' to do it?
  - mehrdada 5y ago
    I cannot do it on Teslas. (Or at least the trade off is undesirable)
capableweb 5y ago
I agree with your general comment, but I don't think any of those things can be classified as "personal data". How are you gonna identify a user based on values from those parameters? GDPR, while not perfect, describes "personal data" to be: > The data subjects are identifiable if they can be directly or indirectly identified, especially by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or one of several special characteristics, which expresses the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, commercial, cultural or social identity of these natural persons. https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/personal-data/ https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/personal-data/

tenuousemphasis 5y ago

>"That makes it interesting, because who is responsible for the following distance: the car or the driver?" said NFI investigator Aart Spek. That's easy. The driver sets the autopilot follow distance.

lazide 5y ago
And if it doesn’t follow the setting, either due to a bug or misinterpreting something (bad sensor, bad sensor reading)?
- speedgoose 5y ago
  It's the driver fault to not detect the event and to not take control, press the brake pedal, as far as I know. When you engage the adaptive cruise control on any car brand, you are still very much responsible to not crash in the front car.
  - lazide 5y ago
    Pretty sure there are some civil litigators out there that disagree, which is the point of the article?

aeharding 5y ago

Car crashes are taken very seriously in The Netherlands. It's refreshing to hear investigation into systemic problems vs personal responsibility regarding crashes, common in many other countries (see link). https://youtu.be/Ra_0DgnJ1uQ?t=209 https://youtu.be/Ra_0DgnJ1uQ?t=209

Aachen 5y ago
To save others from having to pass a cookie wall to even see what you're talking about, the link is (predictably) from Not Just Bikes: why there are fewer vehicles crashing into buildings in the Netherlands versus USA.
dddw 5y ago
I heard on Dutch news Tesla shares the data anyway if there is a crash involved.

malermeister 5y ago

How is this amount of data collection GDPR compatible?

Aachen 5y ago
Claim "legitimate interest", wait for someone to bother with a lawsuit, profit in the meantime for many years while the fine can be at most a few % (I think max 4%?) of turnover in a single year, and that's only if you lose badly. Not saying this is actually illegal, just if it is then this is probably the reasoning. One could design a drinking game around illegal things that just nobody bothers to enforce. Related: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_is_nine-tenths_of_the_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_is_nine-tenths_of... (basically it's up to the victim to bother with legal work and proving things)

beezischillin 5y ago

It looks to me like Tesla's an AI company masquerading as a car maker with the real goal to take in as much data as necessary for their various AI projects to succeed.

ctvo 5y ago
Or an explanation that doesn't require such giant leaps: they want to capture as much data as possible in case they ever need it and know there's nothing stopping them, so why not.
- mrshadowgoose 5y ago
  I'm not really sure where the giant leaps are. Fact 1: Tesla is attempting to develop a self-driving system that is based on machine learning. Fact 2: Training machine learning systems requires training data. Having large amounts of real training data is highly desirable. So a single step? I'm sure that Tesla also benefits from being able to defend against false claims that would tarnish their image[1], but please don't be disingenuous about their machine learning goals. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/01/08/tesla-brakes/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/01/08/tes...
  - beezischillin 5y ago
    I’m not going to deny that their cars are standout and that they sell well, if you wanted to collect a lot of data you need a good and hip product to piggyback onto. But I don’t necessarily think the car is the end goal. If they manage to crack autonomous driving fully first thanks to collecting all that data it will be such a product that it makes the car irrelevant and it will genuinely change the course of history. Of course that’s just my gut feeling about it. It’s not all that unlikely if you look at the extent of what Silicon Valley is willing to go to just to show you ads, from creating the world’s most popular smart phone OS to a giant video sharing site to voice assistants to pioneering vr to creating the world’s most popular web browser and I could go on :)
  - ctvo 5y ago

raylad 5y ago

The paper this article is based on: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355202701_Reverse_engineering_and_evaluation_of_Tesla_vehicle_logs https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355202701_Reverse_e...

NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago

What new cars (or types of new cars) are the most privacy-friendly? No data connections, no logging, as hackable as possible

fy20 5y ago
Probably nothing that can be sold in the EU or North America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall
- NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
  I should have specified, I'm in the U.S. Maybe then it's become a game of gutting the modem (sadly).

indymike 5y ago

How long until someone in law enforcement decides to just ticket all the speeders who have a Tesla?

gkfasdfasdf 5y ago

I don't have a link handy, but WSJ reported that China does not allow high ranking officials to drive Teslas because of the potential of leaking location data etc.

a_paddy 5y ago

If they have decrypted the data then this is a story with much bigger repercussions. What they may have done is decoded the data from the log files, which could have been in a proprietary or obfuscated format.

GeorgeTirebiter 5y ago

I'm not sure folks understand the comm arch in a Tesla. CAN probably still is the main way data are slogged around between ECUs (this info is five years old). CAN works by broadcasting data values at some periodic rate (1 PPS, 10 PPS, 100 PPS usually) and there is no 'publish/subscribe' except that all data are 'published' and any ECU can listen. What the other ECU does with the data, the originator doesn't know. If one of those ECUs listening is the 'gateway' then it can pluck off the main CAN bus anything it likes, and store it for as long as it likes, and upload whatever it wants. New GW FW can be OTA loaded to save and upload different types of data. In Teslas, there are two main CAN busses: the regular one and the 'secure' one that does the brakes and other safety stuff. There is NO connection between the two; but there is a secured path where the gateway can listen & get data from the secure one. The point here is that vehicle safety CAN bus is likely unhackable remotely, as there simply is no RF path writing onto that bus. (all bets are off if you have the vehicle, physically). I believe all previous exploits have been fixed. And one more thing: ECUs have some amount of on-board flash that is used during a crash/power loss scenario. The "dump important stuff to flash" CAN command causes the ECU to take an NMI-style interrupt and do it. Also, if the ECU's own power monitor notices the ECU is about to lose power, there is enough energy storage on board to operate for maybe a few hundred ms. The important stuff is saved. Every ECU must have a way to OTA its code. E V E R Y O N E, including some door lock or whatever (essentially LIN to CAN gatewaying). There are no, as in ZERO, exceptions to this rule. (or, there weren't as of five years ago, ymmv)

amelius 5y ago
> If one of those ECUs listening is the 'gateway' then it can pluck off the main CAN bus anything it likes Except if there is some kind of encryption, I suppose.
jdsully 5y ago
If every ECU has OTA update capability then how could the secure bus possibly be air gapped? You could attack it remotely via OTA updates to an ECU on that bus.
- 05 5y ago

campuscodi 5y ago

lol... this is not a Reuters "exclusive" We had this on The Record half a day before them: https://therecord.media/dutch-forensic-lab-decrypts-teslas-driving-safety-data-and-finds-a-wealth-of-information/ https://therecord.media/dutch-forensic-lab-decrypts-teslas-d... modern-day journalism, smh

driverdan 5y ago

Are there any current or upcoming electric four wheel vehicles that aren't a privacy nightmare?

novok 5y ago
Unfortunately, the new gas vehicles being sold today are also privacy nightmares, just look closely.
- userbinator 5y ago
  I think the point is that there's plenty of older "non-connected" vehicles, but they're not EVs. If you want an EV it will have to be a newer one. (Obviously I'm excluding all the non-street-legal "EVs" like golf carts and the like, as well as the truly antique and rare EVs that did exist around a century ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Electric_vehicles_introduced_in_the_20th_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Electric_vehicles_int... )

judith444 5y ago

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