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> Why don't you have enough trucks? This is addressed later in the thread. Normally, many trucks haul containers to their destination, unload the container, th

> Why don't you have enough trucks? This is addressed later in the thread. Normally, many trucks haul containers to their destination, unload the container, then return it empty to the port, pull it off the trailer, and haul away another loaded container. But the port is too full to accept empty containers, and zoning laws mean truck companies have already maxed out their own container holding areas. This leaves enormous numbers of truck trailers sitting idle, waiting for somewhere to put the empties they're holding before they can pick up more goods to haul.

remarkEon 5y ago
I agree with you, some emergency zoning changes need to happen, but my inclination is still to think that'll end up being a short term bottleneck and it'll move further down the supply chain when/if that happens. Needs to be an all hands on deck (no pun intended) approach.
- more_corn 5y ago
  Absolutely, clearing a bottleneck shifts the bottleneck. Our options are 1) Do nothing and let the current situation continue to deteriorate 2) Clear the existing bottleneck and then clear the next one.
nradov 5y ago
Would it make sense to clear the jam by scrapping some of empty containers for steel recycling?
- more_corn 5y ago
  No. Those containers are needed. Scrapping them would cause a shortage of containers bottleneck two weeks after clearing this bottleneck. We simply need to take the containers off the trucks, but are not allowed due to zoning.
- doodlebugging 5y ago
  Containers (8'x40' single-trip) were selling at auction over the last few years for $4000-5500. At auction in the last month I have seen the same item sell for $10000-14000. Accepting scrap prices for a good container is a losing deal right now when the market obviously has room for them at a much higher price.
- thephyber 5y ago
  Empty containers are worth a lot in East Asia right now, just not in US ports or distributor points. It’s a misallocation, not a global oversupply problem
  - OldHand2018 5y ago
    If they’re so valuable to people in East Asia right now, then people in East Asia have an incentive to take a more active role in getting them back. How much is a train ride up to the Port of Oakland? Less than $5k per rail car? Probably a lot less. So some enterprising person in Asia could organize that and get them on a ship heading back faster than their competitors, reducing their cost and gaining a competitive advantage at the same time. So why isn’t that happening?
    - thephyber 5y ago
      “more active role” More than what? Do you have any evidence the relevant actors are not trying to source containers any way they can? Right now empty containers are 5x-10x their pre-COVID cost in Chinese ports. That’s how prices work in a market system. Perhaps there are non-market forces at work or perhaps the scale of the problem just requires more incentive before it becomes worth while to charter an expensive ship to bring containers back to China.
    - ta988 5y ago
      How would you load them on rail car? If there was a working railroad system connected to the docks maybe. A working railroad system would solve a lot of issues in the US. But it is impossible to get a discussion on infrastructure as it gets abused by both sides only for political reasons.
      - patentatt 5y ago
        Wait, are there not rail heads at shipping ports? As a complete layperson, I would have assumed that’s like the one thing a shipping port needs, right?
bsder 5y ago
Erm, then pay some truckers to haul empty containers to some space in the middle of Arizona, Nevada, Texas, Idaho, Iowa, etc.? If the problem is empties clogging things up, move the empties. America isn't exactly short of empty space without zoning restrictions. In a week, the yards will be empty. This seems like a problem that money can solve. The fact that money isn't solving it is extremely suspicious. Either it means that we don't have enough truckers because they're treated and paid like shit or it means that somebody is making money on things being clogged. Why are the capitalists all running to the government to break regulations instead of throwing money around? Things that make you go "Hmmmmm."
- Rebelgecko 5y ago
  >Erm, then pay some truckers to haul empty containers to some space in the middle of Arizona, Nevada, Texas, Idaho, Iowa, etc.? Would that just cause a container shortage at the other end of the supply chain?
  - thephyber 5y ago
    There needs to be more buffer real estate for containers. One of the thread creator’s reccs was to do this using cargo trains. But you are right as well. We need to send more containers back to East Asian ports where they are most commonly filled. The problem is that ship owners make more profit by sending back container ships immediately without waiting for them to be restocked with empty containers. There needs to be a legal or contractual requirement for shippers to lose some economic opportunity cost to help rebalance the supply and demand of containers.
- riskneutral 5y ago
  > Erm, then pay some truckers to haul empty containers to some space in the middle of Arizona, Nevada, Texas, Idaho, Iowa, etc.? The empty containers don't need to be trucked to Arizona, they need to be shipped back to China so that they can be filled with more goods and shipped back to LA. There are fewer goods flowing from the US to China though, so they are piling up in LA. Either the price of shipping from US to China has to fall so much that it becomes profitable to ship all these containers back completely empty, or the government has to subsidize the shipping cost - but then which government should even be responsible for paying for this?
hammock 5y ago
Why does the empty container have to be taken back to long Beach? Couldn't it be taken literally anywhere else?
- ameister14 5y ago
  Because the container isn't owned by the trucking company. If you have a contract to take the container to a particular place only, you risk breach doing otherwise; plus think about it, if you want the trucking company to rent or purchase more space to store the containers, that's a major cost increase you're putting on them and they'd have to modify a ton of contracts to get paid there
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  Because the empty needs to be either filled and put back on a ship going back to Asia, or put back empty. Either way, all the containers that go from Asia to the US need to go back. And it makes sense for the port that unloads to also load.
  - hammock 5y ago
    Doesn't seem like it makes sense in this case, though, does it?
    - btown 5y ago
      Geographically there is no viable other port. And if there was one, you’d need trucks to get the containers there anyways.
    - pests 5y ago
      If they don't go back, how will China ship stuff to us?
- chrischen 5y ago
  Apparently the containers are not fungible; maybe they should be.

remarkEon 5y ago

I agree with you, some emergency zoning changes need to happen, but my inclination is still to think that'll end up being a short term bottleneck and it'll move further down the supply chain when/if that happens. Needs to be an all hands on deck (no pun intended) approach.

more_corn 5y ago
Absolutely, clearing a bottleneck shifts the bottleneck. Our options are 1) Do nothing and let the current situation continue to deteriorate 2) Clear the existing bottleneck and then clear the next one.

nradov 5y ago

Would it make sense to clear the jam by scrapping some of empty containers for steel recycling?

more_corn 5y ago
No. Those containers are needed. Scrapping them would cause a shortage of containers bottleneck two weeks after clearing this bottleneck. We simply need to take the containers off the trucks, but are not allowed due to zoning.
doodlebugging 5y ago
Containers (8'x40' single-trip) were selling at auction over the last few years for $4000-5500. At auction in the last month I have seen the same item sell for $10000-14000. Accepting scrap prices for a good container is a losing deal right now when the market obviously has room for them at a much higher price.
thephyber 5y ago
Empty containers are worth a lot in East Asia right now, just not in US ports or distributor points. It’s a misallocation, not a global oversupply problem
- OldHand2018 5y ago
  If they’re so valuable to people in East Asia right now, then people in East Asia have an incentive to take a more active role in getting them back. How much is a train ride up to the Port of Oakland? Less than $5k per rail car? Probably a lot less. So some enterprising person in Asia could organize that and get them on a ship heading back faster than their competitors, reducing their cost and gaining a competitive advantage at the same time. So why isn’t that happening?
  - thephyber 5y ago
    “more active role” More than what? Do you have any evidence the relevant actors are not trying to source containers any way they can? Right now empty containers are 5x-10x their pre-COVID cost in Chinese ports. That’s how prices work in a market system. Perhaps there are non-market forces at work or perhaps the scale of the problem just requires more incentive before it becomes worth while to charter an expensive ship to bring containers back to China.
  - ta988 5y ago
    How would you load them on rail car? If there was a working railroad system connected to the docks maybe. A working railroad system would solve a lot of issues in the US. But it is impossible to get a discussion on infrastructure as it gets abused by both sides only for political reasons.
    - patentatt 5y ago
      Wait, are there not rail heads at shipping ports? As a complete layperson, I would have assumed that’s like the one thing a shipping port needs, right?

bsder 5y ago

Erm, then pay some truckers to haul empty containers to some space in the middle of Arizona, Nevada, Texas, Idaho, Iowa, etc.? If the problem is empties clogging things up, move the empties. America isn't exactly short of empty space without zoning restrictions. In a week, the yards will be empty. This seems like a problem that money can solve. The fact that money isn't solving it is extremely suspicious. Either it means that we don't have enough truckers because they're treated and paid like shit or it means that somebody is making money on things being clogged. Why are the capitalists all running to the government to break regulations instead of throwing money around? Things that make you go "Hmmmmm."

Rebelgecko 5y ago
>Erm, then pay some truckers to haul empty containers to some space in the middle of Arizona, Nevada, Texas, Idaho, Iowa, etc.? Would that just cause a container shortage at the other end of the supply chain?
- thephyber 5y ago
  There needs to be more buffer real estate for containers. One of the thread creator’s reccs was to do this using cargo trains. But you are right as well. We need to send more containers back to East Asian ports where they are most commonly filled. The problem is that ship owners make more profit by sending back container ships immediately without waiting for them to be restocked with empty containers. There needs to be a legal or contractual requirement for shippers to lose some economic opportunity cost to help rebalance the supply and demand of containers.
riskneutral 5y ago
> Erm, then pay some truckers to haul empty containers to some space in the middle of Arizona, Nevada, Texas, Idaho, Iowa, etc.? The empty containers don't need to be trucked to Arizona, they need to be shipped back to China so that they can be filled with more goods and shipped back to LA. There are fewer goods flowing from the US to China though, so they are piling up in LA. Either the price of shipping from US to China has to fall so much that it becomes profitable to ship all these containers back completely empty, or the government has to subsidize the shipping cost - but then which government should even be responsible for paying for this?

hammock 5y ago

Why does the empty container have to be taken back to long Beach? Couldn't it be taken literally anywhere else?

ameister14 5y ago
Because the container isn't owned by the trucking company. If you have a contract to take the container to a particular place only, you risk breach doing otherwise; plus think about it, if you want the trucking company to rent or purchase more space to store the containers, that's a major cost increase you're putting on them and they'd have to modify a ton of contracts to get paid there
lotsofpulp 5y ago
Because the empty needs to be either filled and put back on a ship going back to Asia, or put back empty. Either way, all the containers that go from Asia to the US need to go back. And it makes sense for the port that unloads to also load.
- hammock 5y ago
  Doesn't seem like it makes sense in this case, though, does it?
  - btown 5y ago
    Geographically there is no viable other port. And if there was one, you’d need trucks to get the containers there anyways.
  - pests 5y ago
    If they don't go back, how will China ship stuff to us?
chrischen 5y ago
Apparently the containers are not fungible; maybe they should be.