7 ms·

It feels like everyone is trying real hard to come up with solutions that just continue the status quo of having all of our goods produced in China. Just 20-25

by coolso 5y ago

It feels like everyone is trying real hard to come up with solutions that just continue the status quo of having all of our goods produced in China. Just 20-25 years ago we were still making a lot of things in the US. But the American worker, and economy, was sold out to cheap, high-polluting, IP-stealing, yes-lets-ship-it-2000-miles-instead-of-making-it-in-the-US Chinese labor and manufacturing at the benefit of the CCP but everyone else’s expense. This is just the tip of the iceberg. This wasn’t even a direct supply chain disruption and it’s hitting us hard. Imagine if we ever had one, and there’s no evidence to suggest we won’t again. We’re dependent on… China of all places for everything? Why can’t we focus our brainstorming sessions on bringing manufacturing back to the USA? Why is this not a major talking point? Americans have been polled and across the aisle people prefer made in the USA. Let the CCP take care of its own people. It certainly thinks it’s system is the right way. It’s madness and it’s sad. Every corporation and politician that had a hand in this ought to be ashamed. Every media outlet that ignores it ought to be ashamed too.

remarkEon 5y ago
Agree. Almost all the discourse I see on this topic is really just a band-aid for what are actually much deeper and systemic problems with global supply chains that are just too damn optimized for JIT and cost-reduction. You can find lots of ink spilled over "MBAs" and "shareholder" or "managerial" capitalism, but functionally in order to fix this we actually have to reorder how industry is situated in the United States. If there ever was a direct supply chain disruption (intentional or not), the US would be in a much worse spot than we are right now. Everything from semiconductors to nuts and bolts would be a problem (some more than others). There isn't a single issue more important to national security right now.
jdhn 5y ago
>across the aisle people prefer made in the USA. They may say this, but when push comes to shove, people simply don't buy a lot of consumer goods that are made here.
- coolso 5y ago
  That’s because right now, it’s significantly more expensive. But given more equal pricing, most people would of course buy USA-made goods. Right now the system is destroyed so of course made in the USA is going to be significantly more expensive until the system can be resurrected. But I assure you a supply chain disruption will be significantly more costly to society and not just financially.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    Well, right now, "expensive but I can get it" beats "cheaper but sitting on a boat outside Long Beach". Problem is, nobody thinks this is going to last long enough for everyone to invest in US manufacturing.
  - kristjansson 5y ago
    People will act to maximize their short term benefits vs costs. They’ll buy American made, Union made, imported, whatever is cheapest. Of course at the margins some people will choose (place value on) one source or another, but one cannot expect the larger part of the population to act against their immediate incentives to achieve a desirable social outcome.
kmlx 5y ago
> Why is this not a major talking point? because we live in a globalised world. your phone would cost 10x what it costs now if you moved production to the US. that would mean lots of people without phones, so a much smaller economy. no one wants that. > Americans have been polled ah, polls :) > across the aisle people prefer made in the USA as a European, i have always associated American made with low quality, cheaply made, bad taste and expensive. American products are to be avoided at all times. this has been the case for decades and decades, before the move to China. at least now even American companies realised this and moved production to far superior Chinese manufacturers.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- cr1895 5y ago
  > as a European, i have always associated American made with low quality, cheaply made, bad taste and expensive. American products are to be avoided at all times. What informs that viewpoint? It’s really foreign to any perception I’ve ever heard from anyone or experienced myself.
  - kmlx 5y ago
    weird. i don’t know anyone who has had a good experience, or who prefers american made products. cars, food, fashion etc. they represent bad taste and poor quality. i thought this was known globally. like how germans are technical. one of those things that are part truth, part myth. where i come from if someone wants great quality we buy european, japanese or chinese products. whenever i travel to different continents for work, no one i talk to wants or buys american made anything. it’s again, european, japanese or chinese. of course software is different, due to its globalised nature. and of course sometimes you buy american branded products. if you can’t find anything else, you kind of have to settle with the american product.
    - cr1895 5y ago
      > one of those things that are part truth, part myth Yeah perhaps true. But then I’d say that it’s essentially a meaningless conclusion to hold as some universal truth.
nradov 5y ago
We still make things in the US. Manufacturing revenue has been consistently increasing. However manufacturing as a share of GDP has fallen as other sectors grew faster. And employment has fallen due to automation and process improvements. https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/manufacturing-output https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/manu...
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  You have to be really careful when citing numbers like these. A typical American "manufacturing" firm primarily does design and supply chain management, with the actual physical task of production and assembly outsourced. So if they can get the foreign production for $100 and they sell the product for $300, then their design and supply chain management is worth $200 and we say that the US has a strong manufacturing base because of that $200 contribution to GDP. Thus Boeing and Maytag are considered US manufacturers, because they are American companies that produce physical products. But both of these companies outsource most production. But as long as they earn a big spread between their costs of outsourcing and what they sell the finished products for, it will appear as though US manufacturing is strong. Therefore the US is at incredible risk in its manufacturing base, with the contributions to GDP held together primarily by preventing IP theft. The moment the suppliers can set up their own shop or sell enough IP to local rivals, they will be able to sell the identical good for $150, undercutting the US manufacturer and then they have to either exit the market to some other product line where IP protections are stronger or just go out of business.
  - DaveExeter 5y ago
    >The moment the suppliers can set up their own shop or sell enough IP to local rivals, they will be able to sell the identical good for $150... That's what I am looking forward to! What is so special about manufacturing? What would be wrong with assembly-line workers going the way of farm workers? 14 million farm workers in 1910. 3 million today. Tragedy? https://www.nass.usda.gov/Charts_and_Maps/Farm_Labor/fl_frmwk.php https://www.nass.usda.gov/Charts_and_Maps/Farm_Labor/fl_frmw...

by coolso 5y ago

remarkEon 5y ago

Agree. Almost all the discourse I see on this topic is really just a band-aid for what are actually much deeper and systemic problems with global supply chains that are just too damn optimized for JIT and cost-reduction. You can find lots of ink spilled over "MBAs" and "shareholder" or "managerial" capitalism, but functionally in order to fix this we actually have to reorder how industry is situated in the United States. If there ever was a direct supply chain disruption (intentional or not), the US would be in a much worse spot than we are right now. Everything from semiconductors to nuts and bolts would be a problem (some more than others). There isn't a single issue more important to national security right now.

jdhn 5y ago

>across the aisle people prefer made in the USA. They may say this, but when push comes to shove, people simply don't buy a lot of consumer goods that are made here.

coolso 5y ago
That’s because right now, it’s significantly more expensive. But given more equal pricing, most people would of course buy USA-made goods. Right now the system is destroyed so of course made in the USA is going to be significantly more expensive until the system can be resurrected. But I assure you a supply chain disruption will be significantly more costly to society and not just financially.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  Well, right now, "expensive but I can get it" beats "cheaper but sitting on a boat outside Long Beach". Problem is, nobody thinks this is going to last long enough for everyone to invest in US manufacturing.
- kristjansson 5y ago
  People will act to maximize their short term benefits vs costs. They’ll buy American made, Union made, imported, whatever is cheapest. Of course at the margins some people will choose (place value on) one source or another, but one cannot expect the larger part of the population to act against their immediate incentives to achieve a desirable social outcome.

kmlx 5y ago

> Why is this not a major talking point? because we live in a globalised world. your phone would cost 10x what it costs now if you moved production to the US. that would mean lots of people without phones, so a much smaller economy. no one wants that. > Americans have been polled ah, polls :) > across the aisle people prefer made in the USA as a European, i have always associated American made with low quality, cheaply made, bad taste and expensive. American products are to be avoided at all times. this has been the case for decades and decades, before the move to China. at least now even American companies realised this and moved production to far superior Chinese manufacturers.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
cr1895 5y ago
> as a European, i have always associated American made with low quality, cheaply made, bad taste and expensive. American products are to be avoided at all times. What informs that viewpoint? It’s really foreign to any perception I’ve ever heard from anyone or experienced myself.
- kmlx 5y ago
  weird. i don’t know anyone who has had a good experience, or who prefers american made products. cars, food, fashion etc. they represent bad taste and poor quality. i thought this was known globally. like how germans are technical. one of those things that are part truth, part myth. where i come from if someone wants great quality we buy european, japanese or chinese products. whenever i travel to different continents for work, no one i talk to wants or buys american made anything. it’s again, european, japanese or chinese. of course software is different, due to its globalised nature. and of course sometimes you buy american branded products. if you can’t find anything else, you kind of have to settle with the american product.
  - cr1895 5y ago
    > one of those things that are part truth, part myth Yeah perhaps true. But then I’d say that it’s essentially a meaningless conclusion to hold as some universal truth.

nradov 5y ago

We still make things in the US. Manufacturing revenue has been consistently increasing. However manufacturing as a share of GDP has fallen as other sectors grew faster. And employment has fallen due to automation and process improvements. https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/manufacturing-output https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/manu...

rsj_hn 5y ago
You have to be really careful when citing numbers like these. A typical American "manufacturing" firm primarily does design and supply chain management, with the actual physical task of production and assembly outsourced. So if they can get the foreign production for $100 and they sell the product for $300, then their design and supply chain management is worth $200 and we say that the US has a strong manufacturing base because of that $200 contribution to GDP. Thus Boeing and Maytag are considered US manufacturers, because they are American companies that produce physical products. But both of these companies outsource most production. But as long as they earn a big spread between their costs of outsourcing and what they sell the finished products for, it will appear as though US manufacturing is strong. Therefore the US is at incredible risk in its manufacturing base, with the contributions to GDP held together primarily by preventing IP theft. The moment the suppliers can set up their own shop or sell enough IP to local rivals, they will be able to sell the identical good for $150, undercutting the US manufacturer and then they have to either exit the market to some other product line where IP protections are stronger or just go out of business.
- DaveExeter 5y ago
  >The moment the suppliers can set up their own shop or sell enough IP to local rivals, they will be able to sell the identical good for $150... That's what I am looking forward to! What is so special about manufacturing? What would be wrong with assembly-line workers going the way of farm workers? 14 million farm workers in 1910. 3 million today. Tragedy? https://www.nass.usda.gov/Charts_and_Maps/Farm_Labor/fl_frmwk.php https://www.nass.usda.gov/Charts_and_Maps/Farm_Labor/fl_frmw...